AMG '07 - Location Suggestions - REVISED 11-1-2006

[AMG Coordinator]

We are interested in three key things with regard to location when you submit your suggestions for where AMG ’07 could be held. First, we want to know where. Second, we want to know why you believe the location you are proposing makes sense. And, third, very important, we want to know what your expectations are in attending AMG ’07 as this aspect, we believe, will direct the final location when we tally all the information.

For example, do you want the event to be only recreational, part recreational/part educational, all educational, etc. Please be as specific as you wish.

If you've already suggested a location, please don't hesitate to post again with regard to your expectations. We don't think too much information can be submitted at this point in order to fairly and creatively consider all options.

We would ask that you post your suggestions by October 31, as we will use the month of November for voting and tallying. The reason for this method is to help ensure we have a definite plan for those who must submit for their vacation plans by year’s end. Some of you will be more concerned with when as compared to where and vice versa. Thank you for taking the time to post and if you wish to submit more than one, please know you are not limited. Be sure to include the reasons you are suggesting it because that will likely include features and benefits of the location as well as links to websites, etc.

Ric and Anne
Co-Coordinators

[livingpositively]

To be 100% percent honest, it makes no real difference to me where AMG is held.  I see pro's and con's to the "city" thing and to the "remote" locale as well.  What I DO think should be, simply out of fairness, is that AMG should be on the West coast.  To that I would put in the suggestion hat either:

1) Seattle
2) Vancouver, B.C.
3) Whistler, B.C.
3) San Francisco
4) Lake Tahoe

Those are in NO particular order of preference for me.  I enjoy them all.

Jeez, I'm getting excited already.   

[Lisa]

I'm good for anywhere, but I know Jan is gonna say Vegas. I like the idea of Vegas too.
(better group rates, tons of stuff to see, and do)
I will show up anywhere. I don't have a real care where, I just want to be with all of you. It really did rejuvenate my soul to be together with everyone this year.

[anniebc]

Hi

I agree with Shane somewhere on the West coast would be good.

I would love to visit the US..and as long as the next AMG is not held at LAX I will be happy...but I'm sure outside of LAX there will be some wonderful places to visit.

Ah Lisa, you know me so well...

So my suggestions at this point in time would be:

Las Vegas (for purly selfish reasons..it has always been my dream to go there)
L.A
San Francisco.

Hugs
Jan



Hugs
Jan

[Razorbill]

All the suggestions thus far seem good. (Whistler? - I'll have to google that one Shane).  Las Vegas would be amazing - but somehow it doesn't really seem a fit, I'm not sure why.  San Francisco is lovely, but can be pricey.  Seattle sounds great - or Vancouver - both are supposed to be beautiful.  Could probably get a whale watch boat out of Vancouver - that would be a fun event.  Developing this will be fun.

[Iggy]

.

[Moffie65]

San Francisco CAN be reasonable, as is the case for all the sites listed so far.  One of the things we need to remember, is that out here in the WEST, many of us have connections that can eliminate the need to pay exhorbitant prices for any of our meets.  We have loads of members here in the WEST who are willing to help plan such events, as many of you live east of the Mississippi, and don't have the experience dealing with WESTERN networking.  

I care not about the location of the next event, but I would love to see something in any of the sites mentioned above.  

If we choose Las Vegas, it would behoove us to think very seriously about centering the event in the "Old Downtown" around Fremont street.  The reason is simply cost, cost, cost, and more cost.  Fremont street has been completely renovated and covered with a mall type enclosure, and many of the "Old" casinos have been restored instead of destroyed.  Now, getting to the "Strip" from Fremont street is simple and there are connecting busses 24/7 to the strip and when you get to the strip, there are monorails, busses, taxis, limosines, and just about any form of transportation you could immagine.  

San Francisco is a simple one, and many of us still have connections that would make a visit to this city very "CHEAP", compared to many other choices.  We can even find rooms for under $100 that are clean, safe, and comfortable.  You just have to know who to "connect" with to find such places in one of the most expensive cities in the world.  I would caution however, that when you come to the WEST, you are going to be confronted with Gays, Straights, Bi's, and anything inbetween, and you will find them EVERYWHERE, as the cultural differences in the WEST, have pretty much integrated the society to an extent that will be remarkable to anyone coming from anywhere else in the world.  

"Go West Young Man!"

In Love and Anticipation.

[aztecan]

Go West, I say.

I like all of the suggestions so far, with the exception of Whistler, which I also will have to google cause I have never heard of it.

Personally, I like the idea of Vegas. If we go in September, it will be cooler, usually in the 80s or 90s. As Tim said, downtown is great, reasonable and they also have those delightful food specials like prime rib and king crab for $6.95.

Things are a bit more pricey on the strip, but it is easy to get there if we wish (and we probably would, if only to see the sights, or see a show.)

I've never been to the Pacific Northwest, so I can't really say much about Seattle or Vancouver, except I wouldn't mind going there and seeing them.

Jan suggested L.A. That can be fun too! I lived there for a number of years and still have friends there. It can be done reasonably, I think, and there is much to see and do.

San Francisco - perhaps one of my favorite cities. I have always adored it, just never could afford to live there. As Tim said, it is very cosmopolitan, full of things to see and do, great restaurants, boat trips on the bay and to Alcatraz, the list is long.
Since I haven't  been there in many years, I can't really suggest any particulars, but I know there are others who can.

Basically, I think the West is the way to go and I would be happy with any of the above or perhaps other locations not yet mentioned.

I am also already getting excited.

HUGS,

Mark

[JohnOso]

Count my vote for either Vegas or San Francisco in the US (go West young man!).

The Fremont Street area of Downtown, while not as flashy as the Strip, is a good place to HQ any gathering.  As Tim said, a rooftop has been constructed over a few blocks, and the entire area is VERY clean and safe.  It's cheaper to stay here than @ Strip hotels, and several casinos are within walking (stumbling?) distance (unlike the Strip).  I stayed at the Golden Nugget this past year, and it's a nice hotel, although undergoing renovations currently (would probably be done by next September I would expect).  Transport to the Strip hotels/shopping is quite easy, either taxi (pricey) or the Deuce Bus.

I'll recuse myself from the SF discussions for now,  although the possibilities for side trips from here are practically limitless.

If people would feel more comfortable outside of the US, then Vancouver would top my list.

John, up-n-coming member of C.O.W.S.

[DingoBoi]

San Fran because I've never been    but I'm in favor of west coastish or perhaps a bahamas cruise.

Anwhere we go should have a very wide range of activities to do

[Basquo]

Vegas--I've been there twice, once was really good and once was really bad, but if we did (as suggested) HQ in
downtown I'd be willing to give it another go, especially in such grand company!

Seattle--I went there as a juvenile and I think it's a good destination, too.  I remember going to the salmon locks (sp?) and the Carnation Research Farm, and maybe going down by the warfs(?) well someplace where we had really good seafood...

San Francisco--One thing I've never done is ride a trolley, so we could do it over and over and over again! I'd love to see Alcatraz, the GG bridge, that bitchin' pyramid building...

Vancouver...never been there, but my folks have, and it's supposed to be beautiful...

As for a cruise, I would have to meet you all at one of the ports, as I have terrible slow-motion sickness and can't find my sealegs on anything larger than a ferry.  Well, I guess my vote right now would be for somewhere west!

[Dennis]

I'll throw my vote in for Vegas.  However, I would rally for staying on the strip.  Excellent group rates can be had right on thes strip, especially with the increasing number of hotel rooms that need to be filled.  Hotel like NYNY, Aladdin (soon to be Planet Hollywood), Treasure Island, and Excalibur offer excellent rate year round.  while it is true that Downtown is typically less expensive, I think the strip is where most of would spend most of their time.  Transporation is abundant, but traffic can make it a bit time consuming depending on the time day.  I think a group rate could reasonably be had on the strip comparable to staying downtown.  Of course those options could be researched if Vegas is the winning destination.

I might aslo add that for those who have never been to Vegas, it is a party town.  If you were offended in Montreal by anything you may have seen, I can just about gte that Vegas will not be any better.  There's a reason their motto is "what happens in Vegas stays in Vegas".  The city has a way of tempting even the most innocent angel into doing things they typically wouldn't do.

I also want to throw Phoenix into the mix.  The have some lovely resorts that would serve kind of like the retreat some have mentioned in other threads. 

[Cliff]

At the moment, my top pick is probably Las Vegas.  But I have to agree with Dennis, I would rather stay on the strip.  And I don't wanna stay in a motel that hasn't been renovated since the Rat Pack were still together.  If not the strip, then maybe a resort/retreat outside of the city....where we could do resort type activities and then have planned outings to the strip for a couple of nights.  Also, LV is about 4-5 hours from the Grand Canyon/Hoover Dam.  I think that would make an excellent side trip.  Everyone must see the Grand Canyon before they die.  But expectations would be need to be set upfront because Dennis is right...you don't go to LV to have church revivals.  That's not to say that we should expect the worse, but if people are going to have an issue with drinking, gambling, etc... then LV is not the spot.  I personally don't like to gamble and I imagine that there are others in the same boat...the key is to convince folks that there is plenty to do in LV, besides gambling.

San Francisco would be nice, but the cost would be a big concern there.  One option may be to have it somewhere else besides the city and only go to SF for an outing or two.

Seattle would be nice as well.  More economical than SF and probably more variety of activities than LV, but the travel issue would be a big concern.

[greatcyber]

Well, since Jan would like to visit Las Vegas, I'd love to return there.  Have been several times and always had a good time.  Don't forget it's a dessert and it's HOT during the day.  Fall should be a good time, tho.  After LV, Vancouver is someplace I have wanted to see for some years as is San Francisco.

To the AMG coordinators, you might want to check out Legendaryjourneys.com for some incredible packages, as well as vacationstogo.com for cruises up to 70% off.  When rooms/cabins are booked by one individual, first as a block, then with names provided, normally a hospitality suite (or more, depending on total rooms booked) is comped and can serve as a great place for folks to hang out.

edited to correct "Jan" for "Ann"

[DingoBoi]

I know we are considering US locations, and that's gone against the grain of prior events.  Perhaps it would be wise to consider those attending from foreign countries who would be likely to attend and perhaps the coordinators could check with them privately about their comfort level coming to the US.  International travellers are few, but I would hate to exclude any of the people who attended prior amg's because of a US location.  Continue the US location suggestions, but it would weigh heavy on my mind if some loved ones abroad could not or were fearful of attending because of that.

Do I think it's really an issue with those who have attended the canadian gatherings?  No.  Accomodations can be made and meds can be provided for the duration I would think amongst a big group like this.

Just something to consider.

[Dennis]

I agree, cruises are a great value for the money.  No other vacation I can think of gives you unlimited meals, accomodations, entertainment, and multiple destinations for the price.  It didn't seem to get much of a vote in Cliff's survey though. 

Regarding the free cabin (tour conductor credit), the policy is pretty standard throughout the industry.  The only cruise line that I can think of at the moment that is deterring away from this practice is Carnival.  Usually, one full tour conductor credit is is earned for every 16 full-tariff guests, based on double occupancy.  That means 16 cabins with at least 2 people per cabin would need to be booked to earn a free cabin.  The value of the credit is based by the category most sold within the group.  Again, all this can be negotiated.

Well, since Jan would like to visit Las Vegas, I'd love to return there.  Have been several times and always had a good time.  Don't forget it's a dessert and it's HOT during the day.  Fall should be a good time, tho.  After LV, Vancouver is someplace I have wanted to see for some years as is San Francisco.

To the AMG coordinators, you might want to check out Legendaryjourneys.com for some incredible packages, as well as vacationstogo.com for cruises up to 70% off.  When rooms/cabins are booked by one individual, first as a block, then with names provided, normally a hospitality suite (or more, depending on total rooms booked) is comped and can serve as a great place for folks to hang out.

edited to correct "Jan" for "Ann"

[livingpositively]

Before I start, I want to clarify that this is in no way meant to be a grandstand-ing thread in support of Whistler.  It seems that some people are completely unfamiliar with Whistler, B.C. so I was going to give a bit of "background", if you will.

I am too lazy to go find a link for Whistler to post.

Whistler is best known for it's skiing, which is simply FANTASTIC.  It is about 2 or so hours northwest of Vancouver, B.C. and a beautiful drive to get up there.  Aside from skiing, it is also a mountain resort-ish type town.  There is shopping, horseback riding, plenty of bars, a tennis center, bike rentals, hiking trails, spas etc etc.  It would definitely fall into the "more low key" category of places to have AMG, but it is a great place and very beautiful.  Is there a "gayborhood"?  No.  Are there gay bars?  No.  But everyone is accepted everywhere up there.

http://www.tourismwhistler.com/   Ok, dammit, there's a link.  Laziness isn't becoming.  hehe

Ok, so that's what Whistler is about.

 
Shane

[allanq]

I live in the Bay Area, and I've been to Las Vegas several times. In a few weeks I'll be going again, this time for a nephew's wedding, which will be performed by an Elvis impersonator.

My opinion of Las Vegas is that it's fun to see the extravagance of the hotels along the strip, and there's a beautiful state park about ten miles from town (Red Rock State Park). But if the goal of these gatherings is for people to get to know each other better and to "bond" as a community, I don't think Las Vegas is a good place to do that. There's so much background noise that it's hard to just have a quiet time to enjoy each other's company. Casinos are pretty much the same all over--smoke-filled rooms with no natural light, and the shows are very expensive. Casinos and shows are not good places for conversation.

When I'm in Las Vegas, I can't help but think that this is a desert, but water is used as if it were a tropical rain forest. To me, Las Vegas represents American overconsumption at its worst.

If it's decided to "go west," I think San Francisco would be a much better choice. Castro Street is a famous gay neighborhood, but there is so much more to San Francisco than its being a magnet for gay people.. There are many wonderful walks through the neighborhoods, including a spectacular climb up Telegraph Hill. I would be glad to act as a guide on such a walk. Golden Gate Park is great all year round for walking or bicycling. Alcatraz is a short, beautiful ferry ride away. Shoppers will love the vibrancy of Union Square. To see the beautiful coast, you can go to the Marin Headlands, which is part of the Golden Gate National Recreation Area, just over the Golden Gate Bridge. The Embarcadero is a waterfront area that has been transformed into a beautiful urban space that's great for the views and for just hanging out. San Francisco has something for everyone--magnificent scenery, parks, culture, shopping, and partying (if that's what you're into).


Allan

[Lou-ah-vull]

As luck would have it, I leave for Las Vegas on Sunday for vacation.  This time I am staying on the Strip at Luxor (the pyramid) and got a great $79 a night rate for a Sunday through Thursday stay.  Vegas would be great fun and I doubt that it would have the same "issues" that bothered Trish and John.  I have stayed before at the Golden Nugget (downtown and currently under renovation) and it is always a bargain.  Rental cars are quite cheap in Vegas so it would not be difficult to get out to the Strip if we were to stay downtown.  I imagine a group our size could negotiate a deal with any of the mid price hotels in town or on the Strip.  The key would be having a meeting room where we could do some optional "meeting and bonding" away from the noise and distractions.  And...then the noise and distractions would be literally at our feet when we are ready.  Vegas would be top choice for me.

I also love San Francisco and again feel it has much to offer our group.  Any place would hold out its arms for our kind of gathering and there would be prominent local experts who could enhance the optional talks.  This is America's most enchanting city and I would move heaven and earth to attend if we go there.  With effort  and help I am sure we can locate affordable accomodations.

One city not mentioned here, but a favorite of mine out West is Santa Fe.  I can't say enough good things about it.  Beautiful, wonderful places to browse and eat and drink.  Again, the issue of affordable accomodations would take some work, but this city would appeal to most eveyone. 

Ditto for Portland, Oregon (Rocky's backyard), Seattle, Washington, or Vancouver, B.C.  In the second tier, i would throw in Reno and Lake Tahoe (again wondering about affordable accomodations.)

Most importantly, I would like to see everyone again, make new friends, do a better job of being less shy and more sociable. 

Gary (wish me luck in Vegas!)

[anniebc]

Hi Gary

I know you will have a great time...I just wish I was going with you..

(Jealous) hugs from NZ

Jan

[david25luvit]

My vote........San Francisco.
I've only been there once but I loved it............

[cmhjeff]

We have been to Vegas many times and we normally stay on the strip. We've stayed at and enjoyed San Remo's just off the strip but it is now a Hooters Hotel & Casino. There are many options just off the strip. The Downtown area is nice for a visit and to see the night light show but we wouldn't feel safe downtown especially at night. My father was recently out there at a bowling convention and someone in his group was followed after cashing in his winning.  The Stratosphere is at the far end of the strip so good rates can be found there and is not far from the Monorail station at the Sahara The Sahara also has a GREAT Buffet.

[MSPspud]

Personally I'm not a fan of Vegas; however, it's not about the place so much for me.  I've been to all the places suggested.  At least Vegas has excellent food and is a bargain!

1.  Vegas
2.  Seattle
3.  Vancouver

[newt]

Houston Gulf Coast area? (or in near reach...)

[Dan J.]

I am reposting here at the suggestion of Anne. I called the camp today and spoke to the director of the facility. She is going to be sending me more detailed information via email sometime Thursday Sept 28th.  Here is some info she gave me over the phone:

Cabin rentals in the off season (Sept) are 24.50 12 people to a cabin meals are 8.50 per person and they have a full salad bar.
Maximum capacity is 150 people

There are 2 events already scheduled at the camp in Sept 07 a wedding party  Sept 8-9th & the last weekend Mn. Pride will be having a function there.

There is a Trail of Hope at the camp, an outdoor amphitheatre, places for bonfires etc. Sal, the director said that various other HIV organizations have used their facilities in the past and she will be sending me comments about the camp & facilities by them.

Ms Sal will also be sending me better photos than the ones I included in the orginal thread. I will post those as soon as I recieve them.




Camp Heart land is a camp for children impacted by HIV?AIDS. They have facilities available for adults year round. I don't know about the rest of the forum but if I had a choice I would want to give my $ to an organization that helps other people affected by HIV?AIDS.



http://www.doubleknot.com/openrosters/vieworgpagelink.asp?orgkey=979&linkkey=6119

Click on the Camp Rental tab at the top right of the page...


Camp Rental | Facility Information

Retreat to Nature for Your Next Gathering
Camp Heartland Center is a year-round modern retreat and meeting facility in a serene, rustic setting.  Located on 80 beautiful wood acres adjacent to three sparkling lakes, Camp Heartland is only 100 miles north of the Twin Cities and 50 miles south of Duluth.  Our Center is uniquely situated to provide an “up north” experience without venturing far from the city.

Our facility includes a Main Lodge with full service kitchen, 150 seat dining room, three spacious meeting rooms, fireplaces, and an infirmary.  Food and linen services are provided for groups of 25 or more.

The highlight of our Lodge is The Argent Retreat Center.  This luxurious facility includes five elegantly decorated guest rooms with private baths, a spacious common area with fireplace, and cabin sleeping on the lower level for up to 24 people.

You couldn’t find a better place for team-building or simply relaxing together!  Our experienced staff can help plan the right combination of activities during your stay. 

Our facility includes: the Paul Molitor baseball field, basketball courts, sandy beach and volleyball court, access to three lakes for boating, fishing, swimming or ice-skating, hiking trails, ropes challenge courses, climbing wall, and a playground for family fun.   
 
Camp Heartland’s twelve cabins sleep 10-14 people each.  Eight of our cabins are heated for year-round use and modern bathroom and shower facilities are nearby.


Personally, I am not interested in going to Las Vegas. Seems like there would be a lot of distractions and would be expensive for some of us on tight budgets.

[greatcyber]

I posted this yesterday, but it seems to have disappeared, guess I messed up.

Since Jan has traveled about 60 hours the past 2 years going to AMGs, why don't we all go down to visit her slice of heaven in New Zealand?  Just think of the fun we could have with the alpacas and goats.  Not sure how Jan's hubby would feel about having their little rolling knoll descended upon like locusts by the likes of us, but...

Sounds improbable doesn't it?  But what a fairy tale.

Stephen

[Iggy]

.

[anniebc]

Dearest stephen

A fairy tale indeed..but what a beautiful one... all I need to do is find an airline that will fly you all here for a couple of hundred bucks a head..and then you can all start packing your sleeping bags...

I would be a dream come true to have some of you visit me one day, I know you and Joe would love this part of the world...I'll add that to my wish list.

Love and hugs
Jan

[Quarter Horse]

1. Vegas
2. San Fran
3. Vancouver

I think Dans suggestion is great also. I didn't participate in the Montreal gathering, but will be glad to see yall again wherever it is held.

Brian

[Jerry71]

San Fran so I can get out of the east coast for awhile.

[David_CA]

If we choose Las Vegas, it would behoove us to think very seriously about centering the event in the "Old Downtown" around Fremont street.  The reason is simply cost, cost, cost, and more cost.  Fremont street has been completely renovated and covered with a mall type enclosure, and many of the "Old" casinos have been restored instead of destroyed.  Now, getting to the "Strip" from Fremont street is simple and there are connecting buses 24/7 to the strip and when you get to the strip, there are monorails, buses, taxis, limosines, and just about any form of transportation you could imagine.  

That's exactly what I had just typed... before I read Tim's comments.  Downtown is the way to go.  We always stay downtown when we go to Vegas.  There's LOTS to do away from the city, too.  Lake Meade, Mount Charleston, the Valley of Fire, etc are all fun and beautiful.  Of course, San Francisco, Seattle, or Vancouver would be great, too. 

David

[Razorbill]

I'm still not sold on Vegas.  Somewhere quieter and more beautiful where people can connect.  AMG is about being with other poz folks for support - I'm not sure what casinos, glitzy shows, neon etc. have to do with that.  Las Vegas is great for one's private vacation.  SF for me or Vancouver.  Or Whistler!

[David_CA]

There are a lot of other things to do in Vegas besides casinos... the desert is beautiful, as re the mountains, canyons, and Lake Meade.  The bigger problem I see is the temperature; the average temp for the time we were at AMG '06 was 90, with a daytime max of 103.  Granted, it is very dry, so it's not as bad as the same temp here in the South, but I still wouldn't consider it comfortable.  FWIW, we were in Vegas back in '98 at the end of June.  The last two days we were there were HOT - it was around 109.  If we did want to do Vegas, it would need to be sometime in mid-late October or no later than mid May, in my opinion.

David

[Cliff]

I think the place to start is nailing down what exactly AMG is suppose to be about.  Expectations of what the event is suppose to be, is probably driving some of the differences in location suggestions.  Me, I thought it was just an event for folks to gether and have fun (more vacation than retreat).  So for me, Vegas is okay.  But I can see how someone who has a more support goal for AMG will be hesitant to go to Vegas.  It's probably not the place for folks to connect and provide support for each other.  But David is correct, there is more to do in Vegas than gambling and bright lights.

I'm at a resort for a friends wedding and these places are awesome.  The price you pay includes everything, room, meals (5 or 6 restaurants on the property), drinks (numerous bars on the property including a couple in the pool) and tips.  It's on a beach in Mexico (Baja Pennisula), great location for hiking, riding around ATVs, horseback riding, snorkling, windsurfing, riding jet skis and more....I don't remember how much it cost, but given that it includs all food, drinks and hotel accomodations, it's probably not that much more than what I forked out in Montreal.

[DingoBoi]

cliffy...once again, you NAILED it... (i won't define 'it' but use your imagination)

It truly is about expectations of what people want.

I like a casual affair... a few planned events, group things... but I also want to be able to go out and get my boa on.

Perhaps THIS should be a new thread.  I would encourage you or the amg organizers to start one about what our EXPECTATIONS from the next gathering are.   That seems to have been the root of the problem with '06.  Some people want to party and/or vacation with other hiv poz people... some people want a retreat type setting, which is fine, but may exclude those who think of this more as a vacation and good times with people we 'know'... even if only online.

I think somewhere we can reach a happy medium.. perhaps more planned events for the evenings for those who do not wish to partake in any festivities... like bowling, movies, whatever... hell, if it sounds fun to me, I might even go to one of those.

I am certainly not opposed to a day retreat where we are all together, but, since this is my vacation too... i want to go out and have fun as well.

PLEASE post a new thread about this.. I will not do it as I am a bit biased.

oh.. and cliffy, that sounds AWESOME to me... a whole resort typish place with lots to do for everyone... maybe post some links to it... I don't think we've ever considered mexico, but perhaps we should with a fun resort like that.

[David_CA]

A really rural, casual retreat would likely work better for smaller groups for a shorter period, I think.  It could be more of a regional gathering.  Some people travel a pretty good distance (or very great distance in the case of AMG '06) to attend these gatherings.  If you have a lot of attendees and a really structured gathering, you'll certainly not please everybody.  There need to be alternate activities, even if that consists of walking around in town, eating out, shopping.  It's certainly much harder to please a large group of folks, and the last Gathering was getting to that size where an intimate setting (like a retreat) might not go over as well.  Of course, something like the 'resort' that Cliff mentioned is a different story!   

Where we camp is really rural.  One can go into town for groceries, ice, or supplies, but it's not a fun kind of town.  The camp environment is totally unstructured, which allows everybody to do what they want, when they want.  There are a few planned activities, but very few participate.  People seem to truly thrive and enjoy the freedom that they don't have in normal, day-to-day life. I'd like to see this aspect continue on for the AMG's.

As to expectations, I think that was the problem for a few attendees of AMG '06.  I didn't really have any, except to  meet other poz people from here, see a nice city that I hadn't been to before, and have fun in general ('cause it was our vacation for this year).  Honestly, I think I can ask HIV related questions here.  I can read information on HIV here and on other websites.  What I can't do online is connect face to face, which I think is about the ONLY expectation one should have from an AMG.

David

[greatcyber]

All of these ideas are sounding pretty good, with the exception of a campground.  The LAST thing Joe and I are ever going to do is share a "bunkhouse" with a bunch of other people.  I don't want to be that intimate with anyone other than my husband. 

While I wouldn't mind something like a dude ranch or a resort, keep in mind that resorts that are all-inclusive are also quite a bit more costly, making it a real problem for many wanting to attend.

There needs to be comfy accommodations as well as private facilities for each room for us.  Don't do well with sharing a bath, especially if one of us happens to fall ill while on the trip.

Just some food for thought.

Stephen

[Eldon]

America's BEST kept secret place is Vancouver, B.C.

The place is beautiful! and it is on the west coast!

[MSPspud]

Camp Heartland may not be the place for most people's tastes when it comes to AMG 2007; however, I can definitely see a regional event based in this setting.  I think it would be an incredible experience. 

Does Camp Heartland or any of these places have a pre-season?  Would it be possible to have two events - one in May and one in September?  The only problem with Minnesota is...  unless it's July or August you're playing a crap shoot with the weather.  It can be mighty nipply outside of those two months, seriously.

I don't' know...  I'm just throwing ideas out there. 

Or perhaps, in 2008 we all lobby/protest the Republican Convention in Minneapolis/St Paul, MN for two days and then bus up to Camp Heartland for a two day retreat.  With that we get the best of both worlds, urban and rural (maybe even arrested  ).

[AMG Coordinator]

Please note: We revised the thread introduction and are adding this post to ensure that everyone sees our request for one other vital piece of information that will affect the final location selection. The revision is as follows.

We are interested in three key things with regard to location when you submit your suggestions for where AMG ’07 could be held. First, we want to know where. Second, we want to know why you believe the location you are proposing makes sense. And, third, very important, we want to know what your expectations are in attending AMG ’07 as this aspect, we believe, will direct the final location when we tally all the information.

For example, do you want the event to be only recreational, part recreational/part educational, all educational, etc. Please be as specific as you wish.

Ric and Anne
Co-Coordinators

[anniebc]

Although I have put forward three locations, the locations are not that important to me..having never been to the States I have no idea what any of them can offer us as a group.

I had no expectations in Toronto or Montreal..I took everyday as it came and enjoyed every minute of it...the only expectations I have for our next AMG is I expect to meet my old friends again, to meet new ones and to spend as much time as I can with them all.

I would like to see a Part recreation/part educational event take place..but with more of a round table discussion with Q&A than structional, and if Tim can do this for us it would be even better.

Sorry I haven't been much help, but it's all I have at the moment.

Hugs
Jan

[livingpositively]

I completely agree with Jan in that I would like to see a "structured" even be more along the lines of a discussion.  Also, that the overall experience should be about the "fun" as well.

I do believe it is all about expectations.  I had none going to Montreal.  Actually, I was a little...ummm...scared, if you will, as I didn't know what I would encounter.  I just went as if it would be an adventure (not knowing anyone, etc) and it was all I could have wanted and more.

At this point, I would say that I am not really in favor of Las Vegas.  While yes, it can be a fun place and yes, there is lots of stuff to do off "the Strip" and outside of the casinos, it is noisy and LOTS of people and I don't find that it's easy to be mobile there.  I find the cabs there to be quite expensive - to get from the Strip to the downtown area (Fremont St) is a good $12 - 15 each way.  If cars are involved, there is free parking everywhere, but you then must park in the self parks at the casinos, which are a gazillion miles away from the casino and even farther from anything else you might want to do.  You always get deposited into a casino somehow - afterall, that is how they make their money in that town.  If you do valet service, yes, it is free, but the wait for your car can seem interminable sometimes.  I just find Vegas to be a VERY, VERY difficult place to go with a group.  I have done so a couple of times with friends and it always ends up being a nightmare trying to coordinate people.  Just my thoughts.  If the "vote" ends up putting AMG 07 in Vegas, I'll be there with bells on.   

Shane

[Iggy]

.

[sailorboi8993]

My suggestion would be to go to San Fran, CA. Because I was in the Navy for 4 years spent over a year in the gulf and the rest of the time on the East Coast, and I have always wanted to see California.

[whizzer]

The Place:  San Francisco, CA....at a hotel in the Union Square Area -  Great shopping, cable cars, trolley cars, fantastic food.
The Time:  The last weekend of September


Up and over Nob Hill lies the Presidio, Golden gate, and that premier heterosexual tourist gathering spot, Fisherman's Wharf.

Down the hill and south of Market, the Folsom Street Fair, with more perversions and vile pleasures than Team Cornhole (thank you, Matty)  could ever enjoy in a single day.  And it's several blocks away, so the faint of heart will be in no danger of accidentally stumbling into Homo-erotic Heaven.

In other words, the best of BOTH worlds.  A compromise I hope all can enjoy.

The agenda I'll let others decide, so long as you leave Sunday, SEPT 30 open for the boys to attend the fair.

[Razorbill]

What I gleaned from Iggy's post is a good idea.  How about a discussion of what we're doing at the gathering - then find the proper place to suit our needs.  Also, Shane's observation of Vegas mobility issues is an important point to consider - but Razorbill is not a Vegas fan, hence he points it out.

[cayucosguy]

I, too, am all for Vegas.  Talk to the right people and we could get a block of rooms on the strip that are as inexpensive or less so than Fremont area.  Whistler is great, but way too out of the way...  I would just like to get together with some of the great folks' on this site!  I haven't been able to afford to attend in the past, but if we can keep it close to home, I'm all for it!  BTW, if SF or LA are final choices, I can see what I can do to facilitate a trip to Hearst Castle (work there P/T) on the cheap.

[carousel]

.

[RAB]

Dear Ric and Anne:

First, thank you for stepping up and offering to do this.  I know both of you will provide whatever you can to help make AMG 07 another successful event.  So I just want to say THANKS

LOCATION

I'm open to any of the suggestions that have been made already.  If the members vote to come West for next year's gathering, I'll be happy no matter what.

Las Vegas has the advantage of nice accommodations for a great price and is reasonably cheap for many in the U.S. to get to.    LV has a lot of things to do besides gambling.  It's worth the trip just to see the spectacular resorts. 

The concern about the glitz and glamour being a distraction which could impact the intimacy of AMG is a very valid point.  If members elect for LV, we'd have to try really hard to overcome that.  I just don't know if we could.  (unless we found someplace really special)

San Francisco has the advantage of also being reasonably cheap for many in the U.S. to get to.  Their transportation system makes it very easy to move around the city. The city is beautiful and there are lots of things to do.  Their HIV history is obvious which might give us access to some additional activities (like our visit to the AIDS memorial in Toronto and the Visit to Hope Chapel in Montreal) that we wouldn't likely find in LV.

Hotels are not cheap, the city has a broad variety of options, but from my experience we'd likely have a difficult time finding the quality of accommodations we've had in the past for anywhere near the price we paid.  If members vote to go to SF, there would have to be the understanding that we'd likely be faced with that.

Vancouver BC would be an awesome choice as far as I am concerned.  But I don't think it's realistic.  The cost of travelling there is big. For example, Lisa was checking how much it would cost her to come to AMG 07 from NC, I think she found that airfares to either LV or SF would be about $300.00, but the cost to go to Vancouver would be about $600.00.  YIKES!  I don't know if other members have checked out what it would cost, but Vancouver will definitely be expensive to get to.

We've got some great suggestions already and I'm sure we're going to get even more, I'll look forward to the whole array of possibilities. 


Edit to add (this damn brain fog is killing me   )

Another possibility that some members have mentioned is the Russian River.  (50 miles North of SF) It's advantage would be to offer more of a "retreat" like setting.  So there's that kind of option to consider also. 

Edit to add:  Having an Ambassador or two is really important.  Gregory Scott/Canuck/SAE were invaluable in the first two AMGs.

EXPECTATIONS

I really don't have any specific expectations, other than reconnecting with old friends and making new friends.  Seeing smiling faces, hearing laughter, watching people who share a virus come together and enjoy themselves.  It's amazing how just being together and doing things with other HIV+ people has given me the chance to experience so much nurturing/fulfillment/ and reassurance.

I would love it if Tim gave another presentation at AMG 07.  I'd like to see the addition of other options that members feel would expand on the potential for making AMG 07 something appealing to all.  (like maybe a forum dealing specifically with women's health issues.  While we share the same virus, gender differences present different struggles)  Perhaps  the cost of these forums/seminars whatever you may want to call them could be underwritten by outside sources.  Renting conference rooms is not cheap.

The one thing on which my attitude has not changed is that I think AMG should be primarily a social event, driven by members desires and input.  These trips are not cheap for me, in fact they are my sole travel experience each year.  I cherish them because they are my vacation.  I really do believe I get all the HIV information I need here and through other sources like my doctor.  I would be less inclined to spend that money to go if AMG wasn't primarily social.  I do believe that the two can be easily melded together, providing a options from which people can pick and chose.


Good luck to both of you, I'm already feeling excitement and a sense that "gee I wish this wasn't so far off", because I know AMG 07 will be a great time.

RAB

(Who is so looking forward to being a cat and not a cat herder!   )

[Dan J.]

I am going to just throw this suggestion out there but would anyone be interested in going to Salt Lake City Utah? It's a beautiful town, & easy to get around in.  Just a suggestion...

I have no expectations about the next gathering, wherever it is going to be held will be fine with me. I just want everyone to be happy about the location & that it is affordable for everyone. I also want it to be in a place where EVERYONE will be comfortable straight or gay.

As soon as the location is chosen & we decide on a theme for AMG 07 I would like to try and come up with the next t-shirt design so we can start selling them to raise $ for the grants committee to use those funds for helping those that are on limited budgets to get there or use the $ for a group outing while we are all together. I'm no graphic designer & will need help with the design of the shirt. Hopefully we can use Nightsweats & T Cells as the screen printer again. They did a fantastic job on the AMG 06 shirts. Anyone wanting to help with the t-shirt would be greatly appreciated... Maybe we could have a design contest with submissions by various members... Just an idea. That way we can all have a say in what we want on the shirts..

[terpie82]

All I can say is, ANYTIME...ANYWHERE. Sorry for not being on as much and I hope you all don't think I'm neglecting you. I'm currently preparing for my PhD candidacy & comprehensive exams (which I scheduled for the week of Thanksgiving) and if I pass, I'll have 1-2 more years to finish up on my research and I'm done! Pray that I pass and at this time (changes tone of voice) I would like to send a shout-out to Lisa and Zephyr. 
Love,
Minhie Me

[Iggy]

.

[jazij1]

Hi yall since Im new I read most of the postings since september I never knew u could travel abroad with HIV anyway movin on I liked the cruise idea,
As far as the educational part goes NO! being that i used to be an AIDS Educator Im not too keen on sittin through lectures n presentations ive been to so many conferences conventions etc etc thats why i quit. I always felt those kinda events were for peoplel who like to hear themselves talk LOL
I think it should be a socail event myabe have a meet n greet session over cocktails if we did do a crusie would it be a Gay one or a str8 one? Im a transsexual so i fit in either way LOL as long as theres a good bar n some good music n i can go swiming in my DKNY swimsuit Im cool seriosuly i think comfortability is an important factor i know the gay cruise or str8 cruise is a lil passe but i think it could be a serious issue I just dont want us all to get there n people form clicks n then u dont see then half tha time except at check out time or leaving or comin back to tha hotel there should be some fun events planned as a group i know its tacky to to do tha tourist thing i think it would be fun how bout NYC? or Key West? or Disneyworld? or tijuana? New Orleans Mardi Gras ? just ramblin on n throwin ideas out there I was apart of a ASO that had a drop in center n we all planned a bus trip to Cedar Point  we cooked our own food brought our own drinks n was there from open to close we had a ball !

[greatcyber]

Howdy Guys,

You really seem to have come up with so many good ideas and raised so many valid questions and come up with many reasonable accommodations.  So many people want so many different things, that I don't envy the co-cordinators for the next AMG.

Since the last two meets have been wonderful for us the fact still remains that they have also served as our yearly trips.  Unfortunately, we had been travelling to Europe each winter to spend New Year's in a new World Capital each year.  Personally, since we can't afford to do both, I really want to return to our pattern before the meets and have told Joe that I would prefer to go back to Europe.  That way we are getting everything that we want.  Then in a year or two, we could consider another meet.  I'm liking the idea of more regional-type meets, with smaller groups with similar likes and dislikes as opposed to any mega kind of meet.

While everyone has treated more than kindly, well, with a very few exceptions, I really feel that after we move I'm going to want to go back to Amsterdam first for a few days and then to Germany or Italy or Hungary.  I don't see an AMG happening to suit us.  But I know you all will have the best time.  Have fun!

[chm02]

I'm a brand-newbie, so this falls under "what the hell do you know", but I must say that Las Vegas is soooo ugly and chintzy to  to me. And for those who don't like throwing their money away in slot machines- a huge bore. Someone earlier in this thread said "somewhere more beautiful" . I say YES to that.
San Francisco is my vote. Or, alternatively, we just let Newt decide. 

[swede_dish]

I would love to go to Seattle! My sister lives there along with my neice and nephew...I do think I'll be comming this year!

[Life]

Count me and William in... Doesn't matter where or when with us...

[sdcabincrew74]

San Diego, CA  -- great gay district (Hillcrest), great straight bars and clubs down the hill in downtown, lots to do, lots to see, Seaworld, the Zoo, museums, funky shopping districts, upscale malls, outstanding restaurants, the weather is great, airfare can be had cheaply thanks to USAirways, Southwest and Jetblue, airport is within 10 minutes of downtown or hillcrest via cheap cab.  Extensive trolley system going from Mexico up to downtown, through the mission valley hotel and shopping area out to the eastern 'burbs.  Outstanding bus system that is CHEAP.  No fear of walking hand-in-hand almost anywhere.  Too bad it is in the US and our nonUS friends could have trouble getting here.....

[heartforyou]

First of all : Anne and Ric, a big hug and thank you for organising the event 2007.

The location is not that important to me.
San Fransisco area seems nice, San Diego as well. Retreat sort of location sounds very attractive. Las vegas just doesn't seem right for a gathering of our kind.

I really think the location should offer us the possibility for"spontaneous get to-gethers" in nature, a quiet space where we can talk, an area were there is no alcohol or smoke, just a nice space for exchange of emotions and thoughts.
I missed that in Montreal.

I adore nature, woods, lakes etc. because they have the right energy to stimulate outing of emotions.

My expectations? Much more time to spend with many more members.
I left Montreal with a bit of a "missed opportunity" feeling. Too little time , too busy city for closer encounters.

I think some educational programme may be scheduled. However, leave enough time for sharing private time wit each other.

That is my 2 cent.

Hug

Hermie

[RAB]

Hermie

I believe Robert is going to be putting forward a suggestion that you'll find appealing.  Be on the look out for it.

RAB

[anniebc]

Hi Hermie

I agree, Vegas is not the place for a group gatherings...but if the location turns out to be in San Francisco then I'm heading off to my dream in Vegas after the gathering for a few days..if I'm going to be that close to living my dream I'm not going to miss the chance...so if anyone wants to join me that would be great... ..but we do need somewhere where we can be together as a group with more quiet venues where we can sit and talk...the alcohol free sounds ok to me..but being a smoker not sure about the smoke free venue...

It will be interesting to hear what Robert has in mind.

Take care
hugs
Jan

[bocker3]

OK here is my 2 cents:

There hasn't been too many suggestions that I wouldn't like to visit, but seeing as we are supposed to be giving our thoughts -- here are my top 3:

1.  Seattle -- always wanted to go there!
2.  San Diego -- My daughter and grandkids live there, so an added bonus
3.  Chicago -- haven't been there since I was 10 AND (if we are intent on a US locale), it's in the middle of the country (well, from a coastal perspective anyway).

My expectations:

I'm not opposed to formal education opportunities, but I don't think it should be the focus.  Everytime a bunch of people living with this virus meet and talk, education happens.  I think this type of "education" is likely to last longer anyways!  I would be coming for the social, to meet people, share good times and, of course, give and get alot of hugs.  I like the idea of having scheduled "informal" sessions for people to drop by and chat.  I"m not sure how big these gatherings are, but if the size warrants, I think having a couple of options during the day and evening would be a good thing.  I don't mind people partying, but I've been sober for going on 17 yrs (Oct 29th actually), so I would not want partying to be the only options (not that there is anything wrong with it).

Bottomline -- I think I (we, if I can bring my negative partner??) will go just about anywhere, and while my personality craves structure (I was called "black and white" in one my threads-- and I couldn't argue that  ) -- I'm learning to "go with the flow".

I'm really looking forward to whatever and whereever we decide.

Hugs,
Mike

[JohnOso]

I'm anxiously awaiting Robert's suggestion too!   

[Robert]

Well, as my friend Bob says, "...you can have your cake and eat it too."  (Lay, Lady, Lay). 

I would like to propose both the Russian River and San Francisco as the next Gathering site.  This allows us, as Hermie says, "...to adore nature, woods, lakes etc. because they have the right energy to stimulate outing of emotions.  (and) more time to spend with many more members."

We could start out at the Russian River for 3 nights (Tues, Wed, Thurs ) then add-on a weekend in San Francisco (Fri, Sat, Sun.)

Our first two Gatherings were, officially, 3 nights (Fri,Sat,Sun) and it was obvious they were not long enough.  Many people, in fact, showed up a day or two early and others stayed later.  So let's make it a 6 night affair instead of 3 nights. 

The Russian River Resort of Guerneville is a small, cosmopolitan town about 2 hours north of San Francisco.   It's noted for his hospitality and openness and  Redwood forests, the River, of course, (river trips, fishing and bathing.)  Just to the west a few miles is the Pacific Ocean (Jenner by the Sea).  To the east is Napa Valley: Wine Country. 

There are a number of resorts within walking distance of the town which has 2 bridges, a couple of stoplights, and restaurants and mixed bars.   You want to walk down the street with your boa and hand-in-hand with your sweetie?  Not a problem. 

The days would be free to do whatever you like.  But being at the River would give us the opportunity to interpret those Sustiva dreams, take a Pill Shot, entertain at  open mic and lets not forget Karioke!

Then we  could go to San Francisco for the weekend (Fri, Sat and Sun. nights.)  Walk the Golden Gate Bridge, stroll down Polk St., take the trolley to the Ferry Building, ride the Cable Cars, cruise the Castro and wander South of Market.  And, of couse, visit the bars.

OF course this option allows for a lot of flexability.  We can add San Francisco on to the beginning if you prefer.  Or, if 6 nights is too many, you're certainly welcome to join the Gathering later in the week or you can skip SF altogether and go, oh say, for example, to Las Vegas.

As for time, well it's never wise to predict the weather but September is the best time for San Francisco.  Summers, including August, are just too damn chilly.  Also, after Labor Day, the resorts in Gureneville (Russian River) would be cheaper.

Click here if you want to know more about know more about  The Russian River.


Happy Trails

robert



 

[JohnOso]

Robert,

I think this is a great suggestion (and not because I live within spittin' distance of both locales).

As you said, it IS the best of both worlds -- San Francisco...well, it's San Francisco, come on! 

But the Russian River area (and specifically the town of Guerneville) is a nice, relaxing area with lots to do for those who wish to be active.  Or you can just walk the street(s) and lounge under the redwoods there.  Are there more hot tubs than people here or does it just seem that way?

The Armstrong Redwood Grove in Guerneville rivals Muir Woods, but has far less visitors (which in my mind makes it all the more spectacular).

There is a nice gay/straight mix in Guerneville also.  I have seen many gay couples arm-in-arm on the main drag, walking past little old ladies -- no one cares.  Very Northern California, lol.

Guerneville is only about 9 miles from the Pacific Ocean, where there are numerous beaches for those so inclined (magnificent vistas from the trails above, BTW).

I like the idea of "town and country"....many people can come for both, or just an "either/or" deal. 

It seems like the particulars could be worked out without too much difficulty.  There are several members who live in this vicinity too.

(and Jan...River Rock Casino is about 20ish miles from Guerneville, and of course there are cheap flights to Vegas from Oakland on Southwest Airlines).   

Think about it....
John


Here's a pic of the Sonoma Coast where the Russian River meets the Pacific Ocean.  We were there this past July.  Beautiful place! 

And of course the City by the Bay.....





[attachment deleted by admin]

[RAB]

Robert:

It's been a VERY long time since I visited the Russian River, but I do remember how wonderful it was.  The vineyards, the Redwood forests, the spectacular coastline.


When some members expressed a desire to visit a more rural relaxing setting, this was one of the first places that came to my mind. 

The link you provided was a great overview of the area for everyone to check out.

If the majority of members really want to try something other than a city setting, this would be a great possibility.

Thanks buddy.

RAB

[aztecan]

I like the Russian River idea. It is the best of all worlds.

We could have relaxing, more intimate days amid the redwoods and the flexibility of the days could allow for more structured activities some members have mentioned.

Then, a couple of days in the city after the Russian River would be fun as well. San Francisco has so much to offer (and not just the Castro). There is something for everyone, including some great restaurants, ferry trips to  Alcatraz, lots more.

I think this might be a great selection because it really does offer a bit of something for everyone.

For those traveling from outside the U.S., I would like to investigate how those of us already here might be able to help facilitate their joining us.

Oh, and Jan, I would be glad to spend a few days in Vegas with you after the gathering. I think that would be a real hoot!

HUGS,

Mark

[anniebc]

Hey Mark..you are on..Vegas it is.

I think it all sounds wonderful, as you and Robert said the best of both worlds, city and rural, I think it is important to have somewhere for us to be able to spend more time together and Russian River sounds the perfect spot, and to be able to spend some time in San Francisco as well would be great.

Selfish I know, but this way it means I get to visit three places in the States (I'm including Vegas) places up until now was something I could only dream about...I figure if I'm going to travel all that way I want to get in as much as I can...

Hugs
Jan
(who is sitting here at 6.30am only because her grandaughter refused to let her have a sleep in.. )

[Strayboy74]

Well, as my friend Bob says, "...you can have your cake and eat it too."  (Lay, Lady, Lay). 

I would like to propose both the Russian River and San Francisco as the next Gathering site.  This allows us, as Hermie says, "...to adore nature, woods, lakes etc. because they have the right energy to stimulate outing of emotions.  (and) more time to spend with many more members."

What a lovely idea!

And for those who don't know anything about the Russian River and Guerneville, specifically:

Guerneville is a cozy little hamlet nestled deep within the heart of healing redwood trees in Western Sonoma County. Established in the late 1800's as a logging town, it was known as “Stumptown” for the countless number of redwood tree stumps left by the loggers who pillaged the forests for the raw materials they provided. It was later named Guerneville after a local mill Owner by the last name of Guerne who carved a living milling on the river.

From the early 1920's through the 50's, The Russian River was a booming, thriving area; a retreat for many bay area residents and many early decade Hollywood Stars.  Big Bands of the era (Tommy Dorsey, Benny Goodman, and others) were drawn to the area, favoring several local venues.

With the Technology boom in California, and further developments of local wineries in Sonoma County in the latter half of the 1900’s, Guerneville was rediscovered as a resort town, primarily by the homosexual community.  Many residents of the area, during the AIDS pandemic of the early 80's, moved there seeking solitude and serenity in the beauty of the area, in hope of living out what they believed to be their last years in comfort.

Today, Guerneville has become a welcoming community of hospitable survivors - Straight, Gay, Negative, Positive, and the like.  And is still a favored vacation spot for Bay Area residents.  Surrounded by mountains and lush redwood forests, the People of the Russian River, unlike the those of San Francisco, observe a sunny and warm climate Spring through Fall (June through late September), interrupted by only a long rainy season.

Through its history Guerneville's rustic charm has been preserved.  Through state laws prohibiting the further destruction of redwood trees, land developing has been kept to a minimum, and local laws prohibit big businesses from forming along the river.  Its economy is tourist based, there are several resorts within town limits, and the locals are exceptionally friendly.

Guerneville is a small town; its Main Street is approximately three blocks long and is comprised of mom-and-pop shops, watering holes, and diners and any of the buildings still look as they did in 1920.  Rich in community and spirit, it is a town that time has truly forgotten.

[heartforyou]

Robert,

Dank u wel.
Thank you.
Merci beaucoup.
Grazie.
Gracias.
Danke Sch"on.
Tack so mycket.
Shoekran.
Xie xie.
Arrigato gosaimas.

I can feel the energy of The Russian River is just right.
And San Fransisco as a bonus sounds just great to me.


Hermie

[Razorbill]

The suggestion of Russian River/San Francisco is amazing!!!  What a great combo.  I agree with Hermie - this suggestion has built in positive energy!!!  Now we need to get the time shifted back into August - temperature is not a problem in mid-coastal   California.

[OzPaul]

What an amazing, exciting, balanced and appealing suggestion. Literally, something for everyone .

Bravo Robert !!!

As we say here in Oz/Australia 'good on ya mate' !!!

Paul

[AMG Coordinator]

The Path to AMG 07
Do you want AMG 07 on land or a boat?
Ideas must be gathered before we can vote.
If you've already submitted or didn't yet send
More ideas are welcome if sent by month's end.

We'll then compile all and if you remember
You can submit your vote by the end of November.
After which we will tally up and publicly share
The results of votes for the When and the Where!!!

Your Co-cordinators,
Ric and Anne

[pozguy75]

I will vote for San Fran...love the city...love the romance...and this time I am going no matter where the hell it is...I am going!

[Jody]

San Francisco/Russian River sound great to me...Anytime from April to October would be OK so as you can see I am flexible- Just don't get any ideas !!!

I last visited San Fran in 1981 when I left Los Angeles where I lived for nearly 2 years and now my friend Joe has moved to the city by the bay last year so a trip there will serve 2 purposes.

Jody 

[Dan J.]

San Francisco/Russian River sounds  perfect...

[poznoregon]

San Francisco/Russian River sounds like a great location.

[OzPaul]

Hear, Hear, another vote in favor of San Francisco/Russin River. It seems like a wonderfully balanced gathering. Something for everyone.

Cheers
Paul

[Cliff]

I love San Francisco, and especially the amenities outside of the city, such as the red wood forest and the wine country.  Unfortunately, I wonder if the average AMG participant can afford to vacation in the bay area.  I also wonder if the grant committee can stretch the donated funds in a town like San Fran.  The airfare should be fine.  I think the cost to travel to the bay area (sfo, oakland or san jose airports) are comparable to other major cities.  But what about hotel costs and the cost of dining out?  How much are people willing (and able) to spend on a hotel in the city?  What level of quality are we looking for?  How much can people afford to spend on a night out on the town (drinks, meal, entertainment, etc..) and is that doable in S.F.?  Do we know the average costs for a meal in the city?  These are all factors I think we need to consider, along with the natural beauty of a location.  If we find a reasonable priced hotel, but one that is located on the outskirts of the city, are people willing to commute to the city (from say an airport hotel) for entertainment purposes?

If we do a resort in Russian River, and it happens to be a gay resort, are people going to be okay with that?  Given the discussions we have had (recently) about the hotel being located in the gay part of town, should we not discuss expectations in terms of resorts clientele?

[Dennis]

You raise some very valid points Cliff.  When SFO was mentioned I started to do some basic research.  The average price for a 2 star hotel in the Knob Hill area is $89 all they up to and over $139 for a 3 star hotel in the same area.  Everything else of course increases from there.  On top of that, the hotel tax in SFO is 14%. 

As far as dining, Zagat just released their 2007 survey which ranks an average meal in SFO at $35.96. 

NOW, SFO is definitely doable on a budget with some planning as long as everyone is willing to sacrifice some quality for value.  It would be very rare to find a hotel the caliber and price of the one y'all had in Montreal.  One question that I ask of those who went to Montreal was did you utilize the many services that the hotel supplied.  If not, would you be willing to sacrifice having those amenities available to you (room service, on site restaurant,  etc) for a value priced hotel? 

I went to SFO a few years ago and paid $85 a night in the Union Square area.  This hotel didn't have AC, housekeeping was on request, and there was no dining/bar facilities.  It worked for me as a single traveler, but I wouldn't necessarily recommend it for a group as diverse as we are here. 

Personally, I still think the best value for the money would be a cruise.  Perhaps a 3 night cruise with a pre or post stay in the city of embarkation.  Both Royal Caribbean and Carnival offer 3 and 4 night cruises out of San Diego.  Due to the relationship I have with both of the cruise lines I have no doubt I can secure a cruise fare of around $100 (or less) per night, which of course includes all meals, entertainment, and accommodations. 

-edited to run spell check-

[Robert]

There is no doubt about the high hotel rates in San Francisco.  The 2 star hotel Dennis mentioned is near "Union Square" which, in itself is a one block park surrounded by Macys, high-end hotels and boutiques.  Just adjacent to Union Square is the "Tenderloin" or the closest thing SF has to skid row.  You would be more than generous to say is might be gentrifying.  I'm not sure but I would guess Dennis' hotel was more in the Tenderloin than in Union Square.

Now what I had in mind is Becks Motor Lodge.  It is on Upper Market, just a few blocks from the Castro.  Last I checked it was going for around $110/NT.  It's a motel.  Not a hotel.  Very clean.  Nothing Fancy.    Good neighborhood.  Very few amenities.  The location is ideal because it's near by when all you need to do is put your feet up and rest. The Market St. Trolley stops right there (the trolley takes you down to the Ferry Building, at the foot of Market St. via Union Square and the Cable Cars.)Here is Frommer's take on the Beck.

And about the food, well, THe Hong Kong Cafe is across the street and around the corner on Church St and it is REALLY GOOD and CHEAP.  A little further down the block is Just Desserts, great place for Continenal breakfasts.  Although there is no Mickey D's nearby, there are some outstanding Tacquerias, also on Church St.  For those who want to buy there food, there is a Safeway also just a couple of blocks away.  Don't let Zagat scare you away. 

There are some good airfares into Oakland which is located on BART (Bay Area Rapid Transit) and goes right into SF.  But I wouldn't recommend a hotel on that side of the Bay.  It's just too far

I also like Dennis' idea about a 3 or 4 day cruise with additional nights added on  like San Diego.  He's right about the economics.  At a $100+/night, including food, it's hard to beat.  If we want to have our own gatherings or round-tables etc we can do it right on the boat, wearing our thongs.    And they are fun (gamboling, floor shows etc.)   San Diego has been nominated and it's a beautiful city. 

robert

[Strayboy74]

Now what I had in mind is Becks Motor Lodge.  It is on Upper Market, just a few blocks from the Castro.  Last I checked it was going for around $110/NT.  It's a motel.  Not a hotel.  Very clean.  Nothing Fancy.    Good neighborhood.  Very few amenities.  The location is ideal because it's near by when all you need to do is put your feet up and rest. The Market St. Trolley stops right there (the trolley takes you down to the Ferry Building, at the foot of Market St. via Union Square and the Cable Cars.)Here is Frommer's take on the Beck.

Beck's Motor Lodge is a cruisy, sex-heavy motel which on weekends is trafficked heavily by drunk people and tweakers.  Prolly not the best place... especially since a cheap room at that MOTEL costs $185 on a regular weekend.  (don't ask me how I know this, I'll have to plead the 5th)  No better is the Tweaker Zoo (Travelodge) just down the block.  Truth be told, there are many gay B&B's that would be accommodating, and not to mention several cheaper hotels south of market. 

-joseph

[Razorbill]

What's a tweaker?

[Dachshund]

What's a tweaker?

meth addict

[Cliff]

Anyone know of these hotels?

Cow Hollow Motor Inn and Suites (Prices $79 to $125)- Marina District

http://www.cowhollowmotorinn.com/

Read customer reviews here:

http://www.tripadvisor.com/Hotel_Review-g60713-d112293-Reviews-Cow_Hollow_Motor_Inn_and_Suites-San_Francisco_California.html

Chancellor Hotel on Union Square

http://www.chancellorhotel.com/

Customer Reviews

http://www.tripadvisor.com/Hotel_Review-g60713-d115644-Reviews-Chancellor_Hotel_on_Union_Square-San_Francisco_California.html

Hotel Carlton San Francisco (Lower Nob Hill)- $130

http://www.jdvhospitality.com/hotels/hotel/248

http://www.tripadvisor.com/Hotel_Review-g60713-d80925-Reviews-Hotel_Carlton_San_Francisco-San_Francisco_California.html

Ocean Park Motel- Southwest side, near the zoo ($85-175)

http://oceanparkmotel.citysearch.com/page/nrz9/Rooms_Rates.html

http://www.tripadvisor.com/Hotel_Review-g60713-d291227-Reviews-Ocean_Park_Motel-San_Francisco_California.html

Best Western Carriage Inn- $120

http://www.tripadvisor.com/Hotel_Review-g60713-d80864-Reviews-Best_Western_Carriage_Inn-San_Francisco_California.html

http://www.carriageinnsf.com/

[Ric Wilke]

One question that I ask of those who went to Montreal was did you utilize the many services that the hotel supplied.  If not, would you be willing to sacrifice having those amenities available to you (room service, on site restaurant,  etc) for a value priced hotel?

Dennis, Good question.  Thom and I used room service two or three times.  We enjoyed relaxing in the pool.  We had a wonderful lunch in the hotel bar with spicey Bloody Marys.  And we rented one of the small ballrooms at the hotel for our wedding.

The availability of the ball room is something that we would never have sacrificed.  The other amenities were extra icing on the cake.

Thanks for your sage advice.  Looking forward to working with you on AMG 07.

[livingpositively]

I have been to San Francisco many times for work, and while I have gotten some good prices on hotels here and there, it is generally more expensive.

I am not one to use a lot of amenities at a full service hotel, however, I MUST have a/c and housekeeping.  NOT an option as far as I'm concerned.  I don't need an onsite restaurant, room service, spa, gym, blah, blah, blah, but if I see bugs in a hotel that costs more the $50/night....we have an issue.     I have seen the Beck, and....um....EW!!!  Not trying to be a princess, but I thought it was pretty nasty looking walking by it - and that wasn't on a weekend.

so, that's just my thoughts.  where do I get change for my 2 cents?   

[Cliff]

We didn't use any of the amenities in the Montreal Hotel (except for daily housekeeping)....we ate out for all meals, went and looked at the pool but didn't go in, and didn't eat at the hotel restaurant.  And while I can see some sacrifices in quality for value....I can't see too much of a downgrade in quality.  My main beef is cleanliness, no rats, no roaches, bed looks clean and not filled with stains, no water stains on ceilings, wallpaper falling down, room is updated/modernized, the entire place doesn't reek of smoke, semen and sweat, you don't have to turn on the tv with pliers. 

The other factor is location (not so much in terms of how close the hotel is to local attractions, though that would be nice, but more so are there decent places to eat in the area, is it a safe area to be in at night, are cabs/transportation options readily available 24 hours a day, etc.).

[RAB]

We didn't use any of the amenities in the Montreal Hotel (except for daily housekeeping)....we ate out for all meals, went and looked at the pool but didn't go in, and didn't eat at the hotel restaurant.  And while I can see some sacrifices in quality for value....I can't see too much of a downgrade in quality.  My main beef is cleanliness, no rats, no roaches, bed looks clean and not filled with stains, no water stains on ceilings, wallpaper falling down, room is updated/modernized, the entire place doesn't reek of smoke, semen and sweat, you don't have to turn on the tv with pliers. 

The other factor is location (not so much in terms of how close the hotel is to local attractions, though that would be nice, but more so are there decent places to eat in the area, is it a safe area to be in at night, are cabs/transportation options readily available 24 hours a day, etc.).

Ditto to what Cliff said.  The only thing I would add, is that if Jan and Mark are coming, we'll need a hotel with security guards.  You know how out of control those two can get!   

RAB

(Who calls em like he see em! He He He)

[Robert]

Cliff.

I'm familiar with some of the hotels you mentioned:

1:  Cow Hollow Motor Inn and Suites (Prices $79 to $125)- Marina District

Not an ideal location.  It's safe with nice restaurants and bars but what I would call 'suburbia' even though it's in the city.  Bland.


REVIEWS

2:  Chancellor Hotel on Union Square

Good location. Union Square is 1 city block square with Macys, Hyatt Regency, the NIKE store, and the Disney store holding down the 4 corners.  Lots of boutiques and restaurants.  It's a downtown location vs. a neighborhood location.  Good access.

REVIEWS

3:  Hotel Carlton San Francisco (Lower Nob Hill)- $130

Just a block or two from the Chancellor. "Nob Hill" connotates high class and as they say, they're in "lower Nob Hill"

REVIEWS

4:   Ocean Park Motel- Southwest side, near the zoo ($85-175)

Bad location.  Too far.

REVIEWS

5:  Best Western Carriage Inn- $120
 
South of Market (SOMA) one block. .  Lower Market St.   Lots of drugs and homeless day and night.  Not exactly safe.  I would take Beck's anytime over this one.

[Robert]

The are plenty of B&B's.  The problem is, depending on how many people come, if we could all stay at the same place.  There is limited space. 

Also, my own experience with B&B's is that I basically am not attracted to what they push as their  raison de etre; just like home.  If I wanted to be at home, I would have stayed at home.  For example, some of our people might want to stay out late, very late. One time I was chastised for coming "home" too late by the owner.  That was the last time I ever stayed at one.

 
Here is a sample list of some B&B's.

[Strayboy74]

One time I was chastised for coming "home" too late by the owner.  That was the last time I ever stayed at one.

You're a BAD, BAD man!

-joseph

[ademas]

A cruise and San Diego sound pretty wonderful.
You can count on the weather being great in San Diego, and I really like the casual lifestyle.
It feels like vacation when I'm there.
You definitely get more bang-for-the-buck in San Diego (compared to SFO).

[Longislander]

As I read this post, I really liked the Russian River/Sf trip. 
Also good with the short cruise-SD trip.
Went to SF for one day in July 1987. Very Cold! lol Wouldn't mind a better shot at it

[Strayboy74]

The are plenty of B&B's.  The problem is, depending on how many people come, if we could all stay at the same place.  There is limited space. 

I know that there's one across the street from me that touts rooms for $59.00 a night.      Though the one on the corner seems to house a great many transexual hookers, and seems to be full. 

I live in the Trannyloin - right at the cusp of the tenderloin and nob hill - where the transexual hookers hang out.  Sometimes they chase each other up and down Post Street, weilding high-heeled shoes as weapons - and yelling obscenities at each other until the wee-hours of the night.

But I digress... it's really a lovely neighborhood.

-joseph

[livingpositively]

I know that there's one across the street from me that touts rooms for $59.00 a night.      Though the one on the corner seems to house a great many transexual hookers, and seems to be full. 

I live in the Trannyloin - right at the cusp of the tenderloin and nob hill - where the transexual hookers hang out.  Sometimes they chase each other up and down Post Street, weilding high-heeled shoes as weapons - and yelling obscenities at each other until the wee-hours of the night.

But I digress... it's really a lovely neighborhood.

-joseph

Well, now, that sounds absolutely charming.  lol

I bet it's entertaining, if nothing else.  A sight to behold, I'm sure.   

[RAB]

Shane

I agree it'd certainly be "entertaining" to say the least.   

To Everyone

On second thought, maybe we should go to Minot ND just to be safe.   

RAB   

(Who wonders why no suggestions, desires,  or ideas  have come from other members who previously had stated what they wanted.?.?.?  )

Edited to correct typo

[AMG Coordinator]

Dear AMG '07 Supporters,

We would like to extend the suggestion period through 11-5-2006.  At that time we will tabulate the various suggestions and present the group with a ballot for voting.

Thanks to everyone for their input.

Ric and Anne
Your AMG Co-coordinators

[Xavier]

I know that there's one across the street from me that touts rooms for $59.00 a night.      Though the one on the corner seems to house a great many transexual hookers, and seems to be full. 

I live in the Trannyloin - right at the cusp of the tenderloin and nob hill - where the transexual hookers hang out.  Sometimes they chase each other up and down Post Street, weilding high-heeled shoes as weapons - and yelling obscenities at each other until the wee-hours of the night.

But I digress... it's really a lovely neighborhood.

-joseph

Wherever this is lets go here, SF no doubt....Maybe some of us could pick up a new profession, god I say i want to be a stripper sometimes, but a transsexual hooker, that’s wild! 

[Strayboy74]

Wherever this is lets go here, SF no doubt....Maybe some of us could pick up a new profession, god I say i want to be a stripper sometimes, but a transsexual hooker, that’s wild! 

You sure do got some pretty eyes. LOL

-joseph

[scissorhappy]

I vote for Vegas, I just recently moved here, so it would be awesome to be able to attend something like this...and meet a bunch of great people...

[mjmel]

Hello Everyone. A newbie here.....putting my 2 cents in. I am looking forward to getting together with other POZ folks. Just waitin' to read where/when!
my 2 cents on recent suggestions but will travel to anywhere.

1. Russian River/SF: Best of two worlds. When I dream of places I'd like to go, it always includes a natural setting.....just like what I've read about Russian River. Locations like RR soothe the soul and yet offer the stimuli of SF nearby.
2. Vegas: The Hoover Dam/Grand Canyon stuff is interesting........the noise, hustle and glitz of Vegas is something I'd tolerate to be with the group.
3. Cruise: San Diego is a very nice choice, easy to get around, and certainly a great port to book a cruise. I question wheather it's cost prohibitive for some folks however, once you tack on all the other hidden costs associated.  Besides the flights, there's hotel rooms day before departure/day of arrival to consider. Tipping required--which is tacked on to final billing at end of cruise. Well, all I am trying to point out here is that I have been on three cruises in the past and it's always more $$ than it appears at the initial booking, aside from personal spending preffences. But if a cruise is selected, I'm going!

[Lakis]

Because of US HIV policy(problems with INS and coustoms regulations ) would like 2 suggest Canada

[David_CA]

I still have Vegas on my list of AMG sites.  Especially Downtown, with the older hotels, the environment is much more laid back.   One hotel we've stayed in several times is very inexpensive, decent, and about a few 100 feet from the bus terminal.  The buses in Vegas are nice and their mass transit system has won awards.  There are SO many day trips to Lake Meade, Hoover Dam, Mount Charleston, Valley of Fire, and just the desert in general.  Besides, we can go to the Liberace Museum!   

Somewhere in the SF areas would be great, too.  It's a place I'd love to visit, although I don't know much about it. 

Another good choice might be somewhere in the Pacific Northwest, either in the US or in CA.

One thing we need to consider is the time of year and the weather at the chosen location.  Vegas is very hot in August, etc.

David (& David)

[Ric Wilke]

Cruise Possibilities

This is not an endorsement but rather my attempt to share with the group some possible cruise scenarios that Dennis spoke with me about recently.

All the cruise possibilities departing from San Diego, CA are 7+ nights long.  Therefore Dennis focused his attention on those of shorter duration.

Carnival Paradise Cruise
Departs on 9/10/2007 for four nights from Long Beach, CA
Inside cabin - $343.00 per person.  (Includes cabin, taxes and fees.)
Ocean-view cabin - $393.00 per person.  (Includes cabin, taxes and fees.)

Royal Caribbean Cruise
Departs on 9/7 or 9/14 for three nights from Los Angles, CA
Inside cabin - $350.00 per person.  (Includes cabin, taxes and fees.)
Ocean-view cabin - $390.00 per person.  (Includes cabin, taxes and fees.)

[Dan J.]

A cruise is a great idea, but with the cost of a plane ticket and the cost of the cruise that may not be possible for those of us on limited incomes. I like the idea of a cruise since I have never been on one before.

I really don't care where the gathering is. I just want to be able to be with the people I care about, see a city or experience something I wouldn't normaly get to do. 

Dan

[Dennis]

A cruise is probably the most cost efficient vacation there is.  For example, the four night cruise breaks out to $87.50 per day for accommodations, and all meals.  Not just your basic breakfast, lunch, and dinner...but also midnight buffets, room service 24 hours a day, and just about any other in between meal you can think of.  You want lobster you can have it.  Hell, you want two lobsters, go for it.  And at no extra cost.  It also includes your entertainment.  Plus you get to visit 2-3 different ports of call. 

What it doesn't include would be your alcoholic drinks, shore excursions, gambling, souvenirs and things of that nature.  I don't know where else you can have your accomodations and all your meals for less than $100 a day.

[Robert]

Hey Dennis...

I must admit the cruise idea sounds like fun.  I've never been on one either (this from a former travel agent) but it does sound like a great way to spend time with our friends here.   hmmmm... you got me thinking.

robert

[anniebc]

It all sounds very nice..but I would need calm...really calm seas or a bottle of sea sickness pills.

Hugs
Jan
(who has never been on a cruise because she hate throwing up)

[Robert]

and that, Jan, is why I depend you other and others here to get me through life.

You see, I forgot.  I too am prone to sea-sickness.  Last time I took the ferry from SF to Sausalito (all of 30 minutes) I spent the time in the head.  I lived in SF for 20 years.  Some good friends of mine had a bad-ass sail boat and every year they asked me to go sailing with them to the Farallon Islands 27 miles off the coast.   Just thinking about it gives me the heaves.

Dennis...never mind....

robert

[Razorbill]

I'm not so sure about the boat.  One rogue wave could wipe out the flower of HIV+ humanity.  Land doesn't sink (except in FL or CA).  Oh well, nothing's 100% safe.

[Iggy]

.

[Dennis]

I can certainly understand your concerns regarding sea sickness.  However, there's a major difference between a ferry, sailboats, and a 90,000 gross tonnage ship with stabilizors.  On a ship of this magnitude, you hardly even notice when the ship is moving. 

The limited comment I find odd.  I find 24 hour dining in a variety of establishments, top notch enterainment, being pampered from the moment you board, as well as other activities such as rock climbing walls anything but limited. 

There's a reason why the cruise industry is the largest growing segment of the travel industry and also has the highest percentage of repeat guests. 

[heartforyou]

A cruise....mmmmm

I have been a "cruiser" for a long time. "Ocean Cruiser" that is...
Have made at least ten 7- to 20 day-cruises, mostly Caribbean, China, Mediterenean.

It is fantastic, luxurious, and pampering. Food and fun : lots.

Royal Caribbean is by far a better choice then Carnival.

But, the Russian river site still steals my heart.

Hermie

[philipba]

Sure...I had the buttocks done both ways.  I do not believe that BioAlcamid is the right choice.  PMMA is the only thing that I would recommend. 
Completely restored and totally natural in look and feel.
Send me an email and I can send you a link with pictures.

email is p461nyc@hotmail.com

Best,

Philip

[Iggy]

.

[Dennis]

Thanks Iggy.  I am in the biz, however, it's not a sales pitch.  As a member of this site, and someone who has an interest in attending AMG08, am I not entitled to a vote in the location?   Regardless of my career...when I'm on this site I'm nothing more than a member with an interest in attending AMG one day just as you.  I threw the idea of a cruise out there during the planning stages of this years AMG.  Why, because I know the value, as do most Americans and Europeans.  Value is why cruises are the fastest growing segment of the industry. 
And it's because of value that I present it to the group as my personal recommendation, considering most of us are on a budget. 

And I agree Hermie.  RCI outweighs Carnival by far as service and food is concerned. 

[Oceanbeach]

Travel is difficult for me because of the cost.  I really appreciate the thought of a San Francisco/Russian River AMG.  The Russian River is my home and San Francisco is so very close.  I could attend this gathering.

Guerneville is small town America with a resort atmosphere.  There is a sign at the city limits which reads "HATE STOPS HERE."  That is the feeling that is generated as we walk through town.  I would recommend booking cabins at the Dawn Ranch (formerly Fife's) or rooms and camp spaces at The Inn at the Willows.  Both are right on the river and walking distance to everywhere.

Fife's reopened as The Dawn Ranch following the last flood.  They no longer consider themselves as a gay resort, families with children are welcomed.

There is a rental place across the road from The Inn at the Willows where camping equipment can be rented.  There is also several canoe rental and bicycle rental businesses in the area.  Guerneville is so laid back, last year I was riding a horse down Main Street and it was like no big deal.

If the Russian River is selected for AMG, I would like to plan a social event.  Have the best day
Michael

www.Commission-on-AIDS.org

[Razorbill]

I'd can the cruise thing.  I want to see people and places - not a floating hotel.  I travel a lot and part of the pleasure are those conversations with local folks (or maybe even a hookup - gasp!), seeing the countryside and visiting the things locals are proud of having accomplished (vineyards) or just plain proud of (redwoods).  People and places make it for me.  I'll get on a boat for a half-day to look at seabirds (North Pacific is world auk headquarters!) or whales.  so let's dock the Love Boat and get back to Russian River area.
     Speaking of that - I think costs could be controlled by settling in the Russian River and staying there - day trip to SF could be arranged.  Picking the AMG up in mid-course and moving it is a waste of time and energy and some of our physically challenged folks might prefer not having to move themselves to another site after being settled at the first one.

[aztecan]

While the idea of a cruise ship sounds romantic, I suffer incredibly from the mal de mer.

And I mean BIG TIME.

Flying is tough enough. It has only been in the past few years that I have been able to fly without tossing my cookies. (I have learned to sleep as soon as possible after take off.)

Like Jan and Robert, I fear I would spend the entire trip praying to the porcelain throne.

I still like the Russian River/SF idea. Besides, I selfishly have a strong desire to spend a few days in Vegas with Jan afterward. 

So, there's my 2˘ worth.

HUGS,

Mark

[Oceanbeach]

A couple of lodging ideas on the Russian River include:
Dawn Ranch Lodge (formerly Fife's) is within walking distance to everywhere in Guerneville.  Their web site is www.fifes.com

Russian River Getaways rents vacation rental houses.  Their web site is www.russianrivergetaways.com.  One of my friends owns "Sanctuaire" which is a little off the beaten path but sleeps 6 for $275.00 per night.  This is pretty much the going price for local vacation rentals.  Have the best day
Michael

[Iggy]

.

[Boo Radley]

I suggest New Orleans, most of which is west of the Mississippi River. 

Boo,
who hates to travel

[SFscruff]

I guess everybody could stay with me if they promise not leave any dried toothpaste mints in the bathroom sink.   

I'm a volunteer docent at the Botanical Gardens and the newly restored Conservatory of Flowers in Golden Gate Park and could arrange free tours of both places -- and be the docent.   

The de Young art museum reopened last year in GG Park too, it's right between the Botanical Gardens and the Conservatory.  The de Young has an admission fee and I don't have the key to the back door, so it will cost to get in.  Although, I do know the head of the Restoration Dept. who owes me several favors.... 

The historic (we call them hysteric!) trolleys from the last century are a hoot too and they make runs from the Castro to the so-called Fisherman's Wharf along Market Street and the Embarcadero, which has also been renovated.  I just heard a trolley ding-ding-ding by as I'm writing this, please let me pause for a silent Judy Garland moment. 

---insert silent moment here--

There's a zillion things to do in S.F. and I've volunteered in various ASO's over the years, so if anybody is interested in going to some of them to talk shop and wants a connection, I'll be glad to make a few calls.  And yes, I volunteered at SHANTI in the Activities Program for five years and was the artist who created the awards for their 25th Anniversary bash in City Hall. 

Oh yeah, I almost forgot Civic Center -- the City Hall was completely renovated a few years ago, the Asian Art Museum is new and simply incredible and there's a new Main Branch of the Library with a Gay and Lesbian reading room and collection. 

The Russian River is great for a bucolic interlude with wine country on all sides but the ocean.  And COPIA in Napa opened up three years ago for the hardcore foodies.

With the BART system, it's pretty easy to get less expensive accommodations in the East Bay or parts of the Peninsula and then just hop on a train and whoosh! in The City.  Public transportation is a dream and BART runs to SFO and the airport in that town with a tree in its name, what is it?  Pineland, Beechland, Cedarland, ah, whatever its called.

Oh no, I'm feeling more like Julie the Cruise Director on the Love Boat than Judy Garland in Meet Me In St. Frisco.

Just some thoughts....

SF Scruff