Really scared, please be factual with me :( the never-ending oral sex question

[jimscared]

Hello, would really appreciate your advice, comments.
Male/Married since Sep 2006; have had many sexual partners before marrying; always used condoms but had unprotected oral (mainly receiving oral from women - insertive penile).  To be very cautious, tested for HIV and STDs 13 weeks after my last sexual encounter before marrying; in other words, I married being negative for HIV/stds.
Cheated on my wife 6 times in the past 4 years! Mainly with swinger couples, I feel such a guilt and also I feel very embarrassed to admit it.:
1) 5/16/2008 - swingers party, threesome with a couple - only had sex with her - unkown woman - protected vaginal, unprotected oral (both insertive penile and cunnilingus).
2) 6/6/2008 - met with swingers couple at their apartment, only performed oral to her - unprotected cunnilingus.
3) 7/4/2008 - Sudden fatigue that lasted for 1 week (like I couldn't breath enough air) but no other ARS sympthoms - although I was on TNF blockers for my ankylosing spondylitis condition - could this have made me not have ARS sympthoms?
4) 3/14/2009 - met with a swingers couples, only sex and oral with her - protected vaginal, unprotected oral (both insertive penile and cunnilingus)
5) 4/23/2010 – met with a couple in a hotel, only protected vaginal and unprotected insertive penile with her – I was scared because she told me not to use a condom if I didn’t want to; therefore I avoided cunnilingus with her.
6) 10/19/2010 – met with a couple at their home, only sex with her – protected vaginal and unprotected cunnilingus => BIG ISSUE:  as soon as I started to go down on her, she squirted inside my mouth!!!, I didn’t swallow the squirt but spit it out around 5 seconds later on the bed sheet.  When I came back home and looked in the mirror I found out I had dry blood in the inner lip, which means I had a cut from the deep kissing!  What if the squirt HIV entered the bloodstream through that cut???  I called the husband and told him I was worried about the cut and squirt – he told me not to worry as 2 weeks ago she got her annual checkout and was negative for everything – should that give me any piece of mind?  What if she got other encounters outside the window period from her test and before having sex with me?
7) 10/22/2010 – met with another couple at their home, only sex with her - this time she bit my lips while kissing and my lips started bleeding non-stop, therefore I refrained from cunnilingus – could there have been any risk on the kiss with bite?  Also had protected vaginal and unprotected fellatio from her.
As you can see I have always worn condoms and just in case I have always worn condoms with mi wife too so far!  The big thing is that now my wife wants to have a baby with me!!!  And the time has come where I have to make a decision on whether I am ready to have unprotected sex with her!!  I am so scared about potential HIV contraction because of my promiscuity and the worse thing – passing it to her!!
I am a very factual person and all statistics say that I was at very low risk, but as a good maths person I also know that statistics can play against me and I might be the one winning the HIV lottery on those unprotected cunnilingus activities.  The question is, even if it was 1 in 1MM chances, would you play those chances with the life of your wife?  Was I at any risk?  I got freaked out as I found 2 users in this forum that claim to have been infected or to have infected their partners through cunnilingus.  I have read most of your posts claiming it is just anecdotal, however, anecdotal means still possible and still putting my wife at risk.  Should testing be for my peace of mind or is there a tiny but real risk to pass HIV to my wife?  I am scared, please help!!
The things that scared me the most are:
1)   My encounters were with swingers – high risk group!
2)   I usually have canker sores and I remember having had them everytime I did cunnilingus
3)   In one instance there was squirt involved!!  There is a theory that squirt is not just the typical vaginal lubrication but it is similar to what semen is in men.  And when it came into my mouth, I had a cut in it!
4)   I am uncircumcised – what about those fellatio activities? Could HIV have gotten behind my foreskin?
I know I have written a lot, but any support words would help at this point, I am scared to get tested and find out my life is over, how would I tell my wife? She would leave me immediately, on the other hand scared that if I don’t test I will risk her life!

Thanks a lot for your kinds support words.

Jimscared

[jimscared]

I forgot to say that no noticeable ARS sympthoms so far apart from the 7/4/2008 sudden fatigue; and also 3 weeks after the squirt in mouth with cut experience I got a mild sorethroat and some upper back pain similar to getting a cold.

[jimscared]

And the 4/23/2010 insertive penile was the oral, the vaginal was protected

[RapidRod]

Nothing you have mentioned was a risk of contracting HIV.

[jimscared]

I know the no risk oral sex position but just 2 questions that might qualify as exceptions:

1) Female ejaculation in contact with blood in small cut inside the mouth => I know there are very few women that ejaculate - could this have been a miss in the studies you use to draw the no risk conclusion?

2) I would like to learn more about what happens when saliva with HIV or saliva with infected semen (if she just did felatio with her boyfriend during the threesome) would come in contact either with my urethera or with my uncircumcised portion of the penis.

Thanks

[jimscared]

Hi - any replies on my last 2 follow up questions?  Thanks so much for your patience.  Scared here

[RapidRod]

Saliva contains over a dozen different enzymes and proteins that inhibit HIV transmission. The type of would you would need in your mouth, you wouldn't have had oral sex.

[jimscared]

Thanks RapidRod, I understand the saliva explanation.

As for the small vs. big wound - is there an explanation for that?  Is it that with small wounds you only bleed out but not in?  Or is it that even with having a mouth wound, saliva will kill the virus that comes in contact with it because wound is not so big?

Thanks a lot.

[RapidRod]

You wouldn't have enough blood to over power the effectiveness of the inhibiting properties of saliva.

[jkinatl2]

Thanks RapidRod, I understand the saliva explanation.

As for the small vs. big wound - is there an explanation for that?  Is it that with small wounds you only bleed out but not in?  Or is it that even with having a mouth wound, saliva will kill the virus that comes in contact with it because wound is not so big?

Thanks a lot.

Well the theory has a lot to do with blood pressure, of course. But it is conjecture until we have actual data to work with. As of today, we can only speculate using healthcare exposure to trauma as a guide. To date, no confirmed cases of HIV have been clearly documented via the route exposed. It is pretty impossible to quantify the odds of something that has yet to be proven.

[jimscared]

Should I assume there that b/c there was no confirmed cases (I assume via studies and not annecdotal), and you can't quantify the risk, there is still a very small but potential risk?   Should I test before having unprotected sex with my wife?  Again, don't want to put her life at risk; even at 1:1MM chances.

Thanks.  J

[Andy Velez]

Theoretically only sex with your own hand is without risk.

But we know through long experience and statistics in the epidemic that the only confirmed risks for the sexual transmission are unprotected vaginal and anal intercourse. You can continue to bother yourself as much as you choose but HIV is not your issue and you can't transmit a virus you don't have.

Get on with your life is my suggestion.

[jimscared]

Thanks to all;

Her squirt entered my mouth, I kept it for 5 seconds in there and then spit it out.  I have also read there are no studies where women ejaculated (as very few of them do).

However, I have been reading that female ejaculate might be close in composition to male semen - If that is the case, would you still say that even when male semen touches a cut in one's mouth (i.e. receiving penile oral WITH EJACULATION involved), this doesn't warrant testing or is a no risk activity?

Thanks for your help, for some reason I am still scared - I have dreams that I open the test result envelope and it shows the 'positive'/'reactive' word in it

[Ann]

Jim,

Even with your additional details, you have not had a risk.

If you cannot bring yourself to believe us, go test and collect your negative result.

You should be testing regularly anyway. Anyone who is sexually active should be having a full sexual health care check-up, including but not limited to hiv testing, at least once a year and more often if unprotected intercourse occurs.

If you aren't already having regular, routine check-ups, now is the time to start. As long as you make sure condoms are being used for intercourse, you can fully expect your routine hiv tests to return with negative results.

Don't forget to always get checked for all the other sexually transmitted infections as well, because they are MUCH easier to transmit than hiv.

Use condoms for anal or vaginal intercourse, correctly and consistently, and you will avoid hiv infection. It really is that simple!

Ann

[jimscared]

Thanks Ann, you said 'even with your additional details you had no risk'.

Sorry for asking again for a clarification:

- Are you saying that a potential fluid from the Skene's glands - such as female ejaculate - which is close in composition to semen doesn't pass HIV to an cut in mouth?  My concern is that I did have a cut in my mouth when I received the squirt inside it - I spit it out 5 seconds later.

- I understand that even if the squirt carried HIV, my saliva would have neutralized it (as rapid rod said); however 1) I had a cut in my inner lip and 2) What if she was recently infected and her viral load was high?

I have read some discussions where you/Andy admit that only getting a blowjob is 'no risk'; however giving a blowjob (and receiving semen in the mouth) is a different assessment - Note that I am just doing the blowjob analogy because of the potential similitudes between female ejaculate from Skene glands and Semen.

What scared me is the amount of users in the 'I am infected' section claiming to have been infected by giving blowjobs and receiving semen in their mouths.

I am so pissed about my luck - I was carefully licking the outside part of her vagina with the tip of my tongue to err on the safe side and then she had to ejaculate in my mouth!  And to complete the trifecta - I go to the bathroom a couple of hours later and see a cut in my inner lip!  I am so pissed because I took my precautions but these things still happened!

Ann, Jkinatl2, any factual reassurance that all is good?

[jimscared]

Hi there,

Anyone could please help me address my previous questions?  Also, Ann, I have ready you say that some people contracted hiv by 'giving' oral sex but they usually had oral health/hygiene issues.

Would gum disease qualify as 'oral health/hygiene issues'?  I always bleed when brushing the back of my teeth.  And would a small cut also qualify as 'oral health' issue?

Thanks for your support.

[Ann]

Jim,


When we talk about oral issues, we mean serious ones like meth mouth (see photos below).



Ann

[jimscared]

Ann, I think pictures talk more than 1MM words - Thanks!

Should I understand from all you that, assuming vaginal ejaculation (close in composition to semen) is HIV infected, when it touched my inner lip small cut, my saliva should have been enough to protect?  But what is viral load is really high?

One thing that concerns me from the Page & Schafer study is that I am assuming that most of the positive partners in the study must have been keeping their viral loads low through medication?  Would this be a fair assumption?

Thanks.

[jimscared]

I should have said 'when it touched my inner lip small cut OR a potential bleeding gum'.

Thanks.

[Ann]

Jim,


There were many poz people in the serodiscordant studies (there were three in total) who were not on meds. I've never been on meds and no man has ever become infected through going down on me.

As far as I'm aware, the only sexual fluid that might contain hiv in sufficient quantities to infect is the mucus that covers and protects the cervix, which is deep inside the vagina and not something you're going to come into contact with during oral sex. Female ejaculate does not come from this area. From what I've read, it comes from the Bartholin glands, the same glands that provide the lubrication when a woman is sexually aroused. It can also partially be urine. Neither of these fluids have been shown to be infectious fluids.

You're worrying for no scientific reason. If you cannot bring yourself to believe us when we tell you that you were not at risk, then go test and collect your negative result. However, you will not be permitted to use this forum to go on and on about this no risk incident.

If you read the Welcome Thread before posting like you're supposed to, you will have read the following posting guideline:

Anyone who continues to post excessively, questioning a conclusive negative result or no-risk situation, will be subject to a four week Time Out (a temporary ban from the Forums). If you continue to post excessively after one Time Out, you may be given a second Time Out which will last eight weeks. There is no third Time Out - it is a permanent ban. The purpose of a Time Out is to encourage you to seek the face-to-face help we cannot provide on this forum.

Please consider yourself warned!

Ann

[jimscared]

Hi All, just did Oraquick swab one hour ago, which is 8 weeks and 3 days after last encounter. RESULT IS NEGATIVE!!

I hope I don't need further testing, do you guys think I can put this to rest and start making a baby?

Thanks!

J

[jkinatl2]

Congrats, I suppose, on the negative test you did not need to take for the risk you did not have.

[Andy Velez]

You're HIV negative. You never needed to test to begin with and you don't need to test again.

Cut out all the unnecessary drama, get on with your life including making a baby if you want one.

[jimscared]

Thanks - I guess 25 bucks bought my piece of mind

Dr. HHH suggested I got tested because I qualified for the annual routine checkup (yes, cheaters qualify) and because I haven't had a test since 2005.

I have tested before when I was single without being so paranoid - I am PRETTY SURE there is something about about GUILT + the SCALE of consequences (i.e. ruining your marriage, how would I have kids now) an these play tricks with ones mind.

Thanks to all of you for your support during this difficult 'mental' time.

J