UK elections... suck it up Thatcher lovers!

[Miss Philicia]

Hopeychangey is in short supply, methinks.  Polls opened at 7am local time, or 1am NYZC time.

So how will you vote?

Polls close at 10pm local time, 5pm in the US.

http://itn.co.uk/03cddbe62ead0e44077c47189c198bd6.html

PS: I wish our elections only lasted a month

[leese43]

I've just come back from the polling station. Voted Lib Dem.

[Matty the Damned]

It will be interesting to see if the result of the poll is a hung Parliament.

This happened recently in the Australian state of Tasmania and led to the Governor of the state (the representative of the Queen) having to choose a Premier rather than merely appointing the winner of the election.

MtD

[Just John]

From the looks of things right now MTD (0200 BST) there will be a hung Parliament; shame really it'll only lead to us being in a bigger mess than we're already in.

[quote Miss Philicia So how will you vote?quote]

Tory of course Miss P. seeing as you asked, the only party capable of extricating us from the mess that the champagne socialists have dropped us in.

[Matty the Damned]

From the looks of things right now MTD (0200 BST) there will be a hung Parliament; shame really it'll only lead to us being in a bigger mess than we're already in.

[quote Miss Philicia So how will you vote?quote]

Tory of course Miss P. seeing as you asked, the only party capable of extricating us from the mess that the champagne socialists have dropped us in.

Tory eh? Your name will be forwarded to the Peoples' Revolutionary Tribunal.

MtD

[fearless]

It will be interesting to see if the result of the poll is a hung Parliament.

This happened recently in the Australian state of Tasmania and led to the Governor of the state (the representative of the Queen) having to choose a Premier rather than merely appointing the winner of the election.

MtD

You sure Tasmania is a State, Matty 

The UK election is the one that no party wants to win. Whoever wins will have to make such drastic cutbacks, that they won't get back in for anothe rgeneraltion. The uncertainty that a hung parliament will likely bring will just make matters worse.

[Just John]

Tory eh? Your name will be forwarded to the Peoples' Revolutionary Tribunal.

MtD

I guess i had to come out of the closet sometime.

[Matty the Damned]

I guess i had to come out of the closet sometime.

In all seriousness, I hope the Tories aren't as visciously right-wing as they appear to be. A poz bod voting for such an outfit might be something of an own goal, yes?



MtD

[Matty the Damned]

You sure Tasmania is a State, Matty 

Unfortunately they are.

Speaking of Tassie, where's the Scud?

MtD

[Just John]

In all seriousness, I hope the Tories aren't as visciously right-wing as they appear to be. A poz bod voting for such an outfit might be something of an own goal, yes?



MtD

No I don't think so Matty, I try not to do own goals.

Fact of the matter is that although called right wing, the Tory party is really just to the right of centre. We leave the real right wing stuff to the bastards at the British National Party.[url]http://bnp.org.uk//url]

The “New Labour” experiment, has effectively bankrupted the country, even taking the global banking crisis into account. We have been spending far more than we have earned and this is unsustainable. We hardly manufacture anything to sell abroad to redress the balance of payments and our farming industry and fishing fleets have been decimated which means that we have to import just about everything we want or need. The only way the last Government managed to keep us afloat for the past 18 months is to keep printing more and more currency, which has to be supported by more and more borrowing from the international money markets which has to be paid back at some point. This level of borrowing cannot continue and when interest rates rise, and they surely will; and when the Pound devalues, as it is doing against the US$ and the Euro as I type, we risk ending up in the same position as Greece, Eire, Portugal, et al.

I have worked and paid my taxes for 33 years up until last July and have never before then, through hard work, good fortune and/or stubbornness needed to access the welfare system beyond the National Health Service. I have always paid my taxes as reluctantly as the next man, but always with the knowledge that it was paying for services such as the NHS and would provide me with a cushion if things ever went tits up. What a fool I was; I found out last July that as an employed white male with no kids, I was effectively a third class citizen as far as the benefits system is concerned.

The fact is that under the “New Labour” experiment, the rich have become incredibly richer and the poor have been bought with a benefits system which effectively rewards the workshy and provides them with a standard of living which many who work can only dream of, the rest of us live or die by our own endeavours. A substantial percentage of our adult population now regards “not working” as a career choice, the state pays for their housing and local Council taxes and provides further benefits if they want to raise a family. Teenage mothers are provided with free housing and generous benefits without ever having contributed a single penny to the system, drug addicts and alcoholics are classed as disabled victims and given the highest rates of disability benefits and free housing. Me? When I became too ill to work I had to fight tooth and nail for every penny of basic benefits and get no help whatsoever towards housing costs, I even have to pay my local Council Tax out of my benefit. I also have to fight against a system, which wants to force me back to work before I’m recovered whilst leaving the long-term workshy alone, some Socialism? Will the Tories improve this? – Well they won’t improve my lot but they might force some of the others into contributing something so that my taxes will be lower if ever I do return to work.

And now for the right wing bit, and before anybody rips my throat out; no I’m not a fully paid up member of the KKK or BNP. The fact is that “New Labour” has allowed approximately 2,000,000 people to immigrate into this country over the past twelve years with little or no control, there are also estimated to be another 600,000 who are here illegally. A substantial proportion of those who have chosen to settle here did so for their own economic advantage, to benefit from our comparatively generous welfare system. I can’t say that I blame anybody for that; I would want to do the same in their position. But any welfare system, just like any form of insurance, depends upon the contributions of the many to provide for the misfortunes of the few, such a system can only work provided the balance is kept between income and expenditure. A fair proportion of our recent immigrants are placing demands upon both the welfare benefits system and the NHS, which is tilting the contributions/benefits balance and placing a strain on the systems. The HIV clinic I attend has had to almost double it’s staff in recent years to cope with the increase in patient numbers and this is still not enough. I now have to wait longer for non-scheduled appointments than at any time in the past and have had appointments cancelled more than once when one of the Doctors was off unexpectedly, whereas I would just have been shoe-horned onto someone else’s list at one time. Their attempts to stay within budget are frequently evident in many small ways, never more so than when they try to persuade me to change to a “similar” (read cheaper) alternative to my regular meds, which happens now at almost every visit. Will the Tories improve this? – Well obviously they can’t do anything about the people who are already settled here legally and they certainly won’t increase the budgets, but they will chase the “just not working” people off benefits, take rapid steps to remove the illegals and control future immigration to ensure that the majority of those entering will be of positive benefit to the country, which should stop further deterioration. I can only view the removal of “New Labour” as an advantage to me and the country as a whole.

A hung Parliament though

Rant over.

P.S. Anyone wanna buy a New Labour computer system??[url]http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2009/jul/09/nhs-computer-programme-failure/url]

[odyssey]

You guys have a party called the KKK? Do you know what the stands for here in the USA? Maybe y'all should come up with some new initials...

[john33]

A substantial percentage of our adult population now regards “not working” as a career choice, the state pays for their housing and local Council taxes and provides further benefits if they want to raise a family. Teenage mothers are provided with free housing and generous benefits without ever having contributed a single penny to the system, drug addicts and alcoholics are classed as disabled victims and given the highest rates of disability benefits and free housing.

Where I come from people have been doing that for years, way back in the 80's and before, by getting knocked up. Nothing new there, they're eperts at milking the system.

I've refused to vote for years, as whichever way i look at it; it's always the same ols shit just a new face. Ireckon Guy Fawkes had the right idea "start again"

[Hellraiser]

I think you know the solution to this.  In order to get the best benefits you should become an unwed mother.

[john33]

well i tried the getting knocked up part, but still no sprogs on the way

[Hellraiser]

well i tried the getting knocked up part, but still no sprogs on the way

Need help?

[john33]

i'm speechless roflmao

[Just John]

You guys have a party called the KKK? Do you know what the stands for here in the USA? Maybe y'all should come up with some new initials...

No we don't, I meant the Klan.

I think you know the solution to this.  In order to get the best benefits you should become an unwed mother.

Not through lack of trying Honey.

[BT65]

Well, I can tell you from personal experience that not all unwed mothers live off the system.

Also, here in the U.S., in the state of Michigan, there used to be "general assistance," which single men lived off of for years.  It was a state benefit, so a lot of men didn't work and sat on their duffs.

[Just John]

Well, I can tell you from personal experience that not all unwed mothers live off the system.

Also, here in the U.S., in the state of Michigan, there used to be "general assistance," which single men lived off of for years.  It was a state benefit, so a lot of men didn't work and sat on their duffs.

  I never said that all single Mothers did live off the system, but over here a significant number do. And I don't mean those who end up trapped there through circumstance who need help, but in some areas it is a pre-planned course of action, a gateway to years of living off the state.

We also have thousands of men who are capable of working but don't, like I said, and ours is a nationwide problem.

-John

[Matty the Damned]

No I don't think so Matty, I try not to do own goals.

Fact of the matter is that although called right wing, the Tory party is really just to the right of centre. We leave the real right wing stuff to the bastards at the British National Party.[url]http://bnp.org.uk//url]

The “New Labour” experiment, has effectively bankrupted the country, even taking the global banking crisis into account. We have been spending far more than we have earned and this is unsustainable. We hardly manufacture anything to sell abroad to redress the balance of payments and our farming industry and fishing fleets have been decimated which means that we have to import just about everything we want or need. The only way the last Government managed to keep us afloat for the past 18 months is to keep printing more and more currency, which has to be supported by more and more borrowing from the international money markets which has to be paid back at some point. This level of borrowing cannot continue and when interest rates rise, and they surely will; and when the Pound devalues, as it is doing against the US$ and the Euro as I type, we risk ending up in the same position as Greece, Eire, Portugal, et al.

I have worked and paid my taxes for 33 years up until last July and have never before then, through hard work, good fortune and/or stubbornness needed to access the welfare system beyond the National Health Service. I have always paid my taxes as reluctantly as the next man, but always with the knowledge that it was paying for services such as the NHS and would provide me with a cushion if things ever went tits up. What a fool I was; I found out last July that as an employed white male with no kids, I was effectively a third class citizen as far as the benefits system is concerned.

The fact is that under the “New Labour” experiment, the rich have become incredibly richer and the poor have been bought with a benefits system which effectively rewards the workshy and provides them with a standard of living which many who work can only dream of, the rest of us live or die by our own endeavours. A substantial percentage of our adult population now regards “not working” as a career choice, the state pays for their housing and local Council taxes and provides further benefits if they want to raise a family. Teenage mothers are provided with free housing and generous benefits without ever having contributed a single penny to the system, drug addicts and alcoholics are classed as disabled victims and given the highest rates of disability benefits and free housing. Me? When I became too ill to work I had to fight tooth and nail for every penny of basic benefits and get no help whatsoever towards housing costs, I even have to pay my local Council Tax out of my benefit. I also have to fight against a system, which wants to force me back to work before I’m recovered whilst leaving the long-term workshy alone, some Socialism? Will the Tories improve this? – Well they won’t improve my lot but they might force some of the others into contributing something so that my taxes will be lower if ever I do return to work.

And now for the right wing bit, and before anybody rips my throat out; no I’m not a fully paid up member of the KKK or BNP. The fact is that “New Labour” has allowed approximately 2,000,000 people to immigrate into this country over the past twelve years with little or no control, there are also estimated to be another 600,000 who are here illegally. A substantial proportion of those who have chosen to settle here did so for their own economic advantage, to benefit from our comparatively generous welfare system. I can’t say that I blame anybody for that; I would want to do the same in their position. But any welfare system, just like any form of insurance, depends upon the contributions of the many to provide for the misfortunes of the few, such a system can only work provided the balance is kept between income and expenditure. A fair proportion of our recent immigrants are placing demands upon both the welfare benefits system and the NHS, which is tilting the contributions/benefits balance and placing a strain on the systems. The HIV clinic I attend has had to almost double it’s staff in recent years to cope with the increase in patient numbers and this is still not enough. I now have to wait longer for non-scheduled appointments than at any time in the past and have had appointments cancelled more than once when one of the Doctors was off unexpectedly, whereas I would just have been shoe-horned onto someone else’s list at one time. Their attempts to stay within budget are frequently evident in many small ways, never more so than when they try to persuade me to change to a “similar” (read cheaper) alternative to my regular meds, which happens now at almost every visit. Will the Tories improve this? – Well obviously they can’t do anything about the people who are already settled here legally and they certainly won’t increase the budgets, but they will chase the “just not working” people off benefits, take rapid steps to remove the illegals and control future immigration to ensure that the majority of those entering will be of positive benefit to the country, which should stop further deterioration. I can only view the removal of “New Labour” as an advantage to me and the country as a whole.

A hung Parliament though

Rant over.

P.S. Anyone wanna buy a New Labour computer system??[url]http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2009/jul/09/nhs-computer-programme-failure/url]

Heh. Is that better? Believe me I understand the therapeutic value of the Cantankerous Rant.

Setting aside the tedious "white males are third class citizens" shit there is much that you and I agree on. "New Labour" was awful. Britain's economy is in a dire condition and after 13 years it's not surprising that Gordon has been tipped out, these corrections happen.

I'm not sure you'll get the stern Francis Urquhart style Tory regime you would like, however. It appears that the Conservatives will have to rely on Cleggers and his band of Merry Lib-Dems for confidennce and supply which suggests substantial compromise will be the order of the day.

MtD

[Just John]

Heh. Is that better? Believe me I understand the therapeutic value of the Cantankerous Rant.

I'm not sure you'll get the stern Francis Urquhart style Tory regime you would like, however. It appears that the Conservatives will have to rely on Cleggers and his band of Merry Lib-Dems for confidennce and supply which suggests substantial compromise will be the order of the day.

MtD

Yes the rant is good for the soul occasionally Matty, thanks.

I really do fear the options of the compromise. The yellow ones can't even seem to agree amongst themselves let alone reach an agreement with a Conservative Party whose policies are poles apart from theirs.

We live in interesting times as they say.

[northernguy]

It will be interesting to see if the result of the poll is a hung Parliament.

This happened recently in the Australian state of Tasmania and led to the Governor of the state (the representative of the Queen) having to choose a Premier rather than merely appointing the winner of the election.

MtD

We've been living with minority Federal parliaments since 2006, not all bad really.  Forces the Tories to act more like Liberals.  Its interesting this is seen as such a negative in the UK, when other European countries it is the norm.

[Matty the Damned]

The Tasmanian lower house (House of Assembly) is elected via a system of proportional representation which is very unusual in Australia. Normally PR is used in upper houses such as our Senate or state Legislative Councils and lower houses have single member electorates.

The emergence of the Greens on the Left of Australian politics over the last 20 years has further added to this situation. Tasmania is the only state which has Greens MPs in the lower house.

At their recent state election the conservatives and the Labor party both won ten seats with the Greens holding the balance of power with five seats. Even though the conservatives (known as "Liberals" down here) scored a higher popular vote than Labor, the support of the 5 Greens MPs means Labor continues to govern the state in minority.

MtD

[Miss Philicia]

Miss Philicia So how will you vote?

Is Marilyn running?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bMw_iosf5QI

[Miss Philicia]

I've been watching this election all this past month and all I can say is if you think the US electoral system sucks then the UK really has us beat.  I'd vote for Clegg just so he can force the electoral reform issue on the other two parties.

I also find it immeasurably interesting that the UK elections have become thoroughly Americanized what with those televised debates and with Cameron being a PR slick.  Can't believe the LD only got 57 seats.  Can someone provide me with a popular vote breakdown?

Oh, I I just loved Bigot-gate -- what a hoot! That poor woman... she just wants those filthy immigrants deported!

Frankly they just have Elizabeth take over -- these other guys just aren't much fun. You know it's bad when The Guardian ditches Labour.  Should be interesting to see how long this coalition lasts.  Sometimes I wonder if the US structure is better, excepting of course the two year campaigns which suck.

[MarkB]

I also find it immeasurably interesting that the UK elections have become thoroughly Americanized what with those televised debates and with Cameron being a PR slick.  Can't believe the LD only got 57 seats.  Can someone provide me with a popular vote breakdown?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/election2010/results/

[Just John]

Is Marilyn running?

Wow, I'd forgotten about her, Boy George's cheaper sister who never quite made it.

I'd vote for Clegg just so he can force the electoral reform issue on the other two parties.

Agreed.
One look at the percentage of votes cast versus the number of M.P.'s elected speaks for itself. I'm not convinced though that a straightforward P.R. system is the answer, even a large part of the Lib-Dem's membership is against it. There are many systems which could be looked at in detail but they could make an easy start by re-aligning constituency boundaries so that the each contained approximately the same number of the electorate. Both Labour and the Conservatives have re-aligned constituency boundaries in the past so that they have virtually guaranteed a positive vote for themselves. A blue painted monkey or a red ass are almost guaranteed a seat in some areas.

Oh, I I just loved Bigot-gate -- what a hoot! That poor woman... she just wants those filthy immigrants deported!

Not sure if I understand you correctly here Miss P. but you seem to be berating, "That Woman", for her "racist" views. I watched this unfold on the news programs and what she in fact raised had more to do with education than race issues. Many of her local schools have such a large proportion of pupils who don't speak english that the education of her own grandchildren is suffering. What is wrong with any Grandmother speaking out against that? Some schools have been complaining for years now that they don't have the resources to teach this number of children English and at the same time properly teach the other kids the stuff they should be learning. Nett result of this is that lots of children, even high school kids are now leaving school without the ability to read or write properly or be capable of simple arithmetic, is she really racist to complain about the root cause of this? The Local Councils (mine at any rate) simply trumpet this as a triumph of "diversity and equality"; excellent, we now have a large number of diverse, illiterate and innumerate kids, just what we need to take the country forward. Or am I just being racist to say so?

-John.

[Cliff]

You're putting words into her mouth.  Actually, what she said was...

You can't say anything about the immigrants because you're saying that you're … but all these eastern European what are coming in, where are they flocking from?

 She never developed the argument further, so your connection to education is incorrect.

And Brown's response was....

Brown said that although there were 1 million immigrants to Europe from Britain, there were also 1 million Britons who had moved to Europe.

It wasn't about education and young immigrants not speaking English.  She was just bashing Eastern Europeans for being in Britain, not realising that the British take advantage of the EU's ease of movement to the annoyance of the Spanish and French!

I thought what he said was great.  It showed the man has some character.  

[Just John]

You're putting words into her mouth.  Actually, what she said was...
  She never developed the argument further, so your connection to education is incorrect.

And Brown's response was....

It wasn't about education and young immigrants not speaking English.  She was just bashing Eastern Europeans for being in Britain, not realising that the British take advantage of the EU's ease of movement to the annoyance of the Spanish and French!

I thought what he said was great.  It showed the man has some character.  

Actually Cliff she expanded upon what she said in later interviews and gave her reasons for bringing the subjects up, it was here that she explained that her concerns were for the education and welfare of her Grandchildren.

As for Brown's statement about the numbers of emigrants, without exit controls, neither he nor anyone else can have anything more than a guess about the numbers leaving the country or their destination. They don't even know if those leaving were permanent residents here or just visitors, long term or otherwise. It was only a few short months ago that Brown was forced to publicly apologise to the Office For National Statistics, for deliberately misquoting their figures on immigration numbers to support his claims that there was little nett change.

-John.

[Cliff]

Actually Cliff she expanded upon what she said in later interviews and gave her reasons for bringing the subjects up, it was here that she explained that her concerns were for the education and welfare of her Grandchildren.

So upon reflection, and passage of time, she expanded (err softened) her views.  Gordon was right about her, the first time.

Here's to hoping a Lib-Lab pact is made.  I can't see Tory-Lib.  Just doesn't seem to fit.

[Matty the Damned]

So upon reflection, and passage of time, she expanded (err softened) her views.  Gordon was right about her, the first time.

Here's to hoping a Lib-Lab pact is made.  I can't see Tory-Lib.  Just doesn't seem to fit.

A Labour/Lib-Dem pact has numerical problems.

British Labour and the Lib-Dems simply do not have the combined numbers to command a majority so such an alliance would require support from other minor parties like the SDLP, the Scottish National Party and possibly Plaid Cymru.

Most unwieldy.

Whereas the Tories and the Lib-Dems combined have an absolute majority. Clearly an agreement on key issues (electoral reform, relations with Europe) between Cameron and Clegg could certainly see a workable Cameron minority government.

MtD

/edit: Corrected a mangled sentence/

[Just John]

Here's to hoping a Lib-Lab pact is made.  I can't see Tory-Lib.  Just doesn't seem to fit.

Agreed.

The Liberal Democrats and Conservatives are too far apart in so many ways to ever have any sort of a long lasting coalition. It might, though, quieten the obvious fears of investors and get us through the next few months without us going into complete meltdown until another election could be held.

Even with a Lib-Lab coalition they would still have a minority Government and would have to rely on some of the smaller parties for support, the Scots and Welsh Nationalists have given veiled threats to extract a heavy financial price for this. I would give it 12 months at most before the country was reliant on the IMF.

Whilst this would be disastrous for the country it would serve New Labour and the Lib Dem's right and should ensure that it's a long time before any of them get into Government again.

-John.

[Miss Philicia]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/election2010/results/

563,743 for the British National Party -- way to go!

[MarkB]

563,743 for the British National Party -- way to go!

'First past the post' does have its advantages ...

[fearless]

I sense an early election on the horizon. I doubt any coalition will survive long given the tough decisions that will need to be made asap.

[MarkB]

Indeed. The idea of British politicians putting aside personal aggrandisement and the agendas of their own career advancement - even temporarily - to form a government of national unity in order to deal with the economic crisis which is about to engulf us is so way out of the pages of a novel as to be laughable.

[fearless]

Indeed. The idea of British politicians putting aside personal aggrandisement and the agendas of their own career advancement - even temporarily - to form a government of national unity in order to deal with the economic crisis which is about to engulf us is so way out of the pages of a novel as to be laughable.

Let the Lords deal with it. This is far too complex for the commoners.

[MarkB]

As if they could ...

 

[john33]

Let the Lords deal with it. This is far too complex for the commoners.

Same as Conservative then!!

[Cliff]

I would give it 12 months at most before the country was reliant on the IMF.

Assuming the IMF has any pocket change left after bailing out Greece, Portugal, Ireland and Italy.  Oh and Spain.  PIIGS, I knew I missed one.

I'm an optimist.  I think the next government will be forced to sort out the budget deficit, regardless of the party ends up in government.  I don't think the IMF will be needed.

For all of Cameron's talk about the age of austerity, he wasn't very forth coming with specific plans on budget cuts.  Though he was specific on cuts in taxes (inheritance in particular).

[Just John]

The past few days have probably been one of the more interesting times in British politics since Cromwell, I believe that it's now all over bar the shouting and that we now have

A CONSERVATIVE GOVERNMENT YAY!!!! 

-John