Unprotected oral & vaginal sex with sex worker in Australia

[J3rrY]

Hi all,
Part 1 - the risk itself
 I had unprotected oral & vaginal sex with a sex worker from a licensed Australian brothel about 78 hours ago & now I am a little worried that I have contracted HIV. I KNOW I put myself at risk of an STI by engaging in unprotected vaginal sex with a person of an unknown status but how likely do you think it is that I have contracted HIV assuming she is HIV+ (that is, on a scale from certain, highly likely, average, very unlikely, near zero % unlikely, 100% unlikely). She gave me a head job then she went on top of me, then we did doggy and then we repeated each sexual activity again and in the same order (half an hour all up). There was no blood from any of us although I did cum in her whilst she was on top. I'm not worried too much about the oral sex but more so about the unprotected vaginal sex.

Part 2 - other statistics
In Australia, according to the latest studies (data from 2010), HIV prevalence has remained below 0.5% among heterosexually active men and women seen through metropolitan sexual health clinics. In 2001 – 2010, HIV prevalence was less than 0.2% among men and women who reported a history of heterosexual contact in Australia (Figures 33 and 34). HIV prevalence remained less than 0.3% among men
who reported heterosexual contact overseas. HIV prevalence remained low among women self-identifying as sex workers, with or without a history of injecting drug use (less than 0.1). Data attained from http://www.med.unsw.edu.au/NCHECRweb.nsf/resources/2011/$file/KIRBY_ASR2011.pdf Furthermore, HIV is predominantly transmitted through gay men in Australia.

Now, this lady was in her late 30's and WAS NOT from a country with a high prevalence of HIV such as the Sub Sahara etc. This was also a licensed brothel, meaning that surely someone would have had to have informed me that she was HIV+ if she was as well but no one ever told me that she was HIV+. Another statistic is that no one has ever contracted HIV from an Australian brothel since 1980, the year they discovered HIV, to record. Then again, that is down to the use of condoms. However, I did not use a condom so I sit here and wonder - if SHE WANTED TO (more than me - I would have preferred with a condom) have sex with me without a condom, how many guys has she done that to as well? Or perhaps is it because im a younger looking bloke and she thought to herself he probably doesn't have any diseases (which I don't, of course). Even if she did have HIV, by law, doesn't she have to USE a condom regardless to minimize the risk of transmission?

This brothel that I went too, I wouldn't regard it as the cleanest place nor as the dirtiest - its an average licensed brothel. There are some other brothels located around Australia where they bring in sex workers from Asian countries, and ive heard that these ladies are the root of STI transmission by reading local newspapers.

Also, as much as I don't trust her, she told me she has only been doing this job for 2 months & she gets tested every week. But then I think about it, who likes getting a blood test every week. She probably only does a urine test and a blood test maybe once a month. But then again, I find it hard to believe that she gets a blood and urine test once a week. Then again, even if she did have HIV and she had unprotected sex with me and she knew about it, surely she would be on some medication to reduce her viral load. Also, if she was HIV neg when she started this job, and has even had unprotected vaginal sex with half a dozen male guys, the odds that she would have (a) come across someone HIV pos, and (b) actually contracted HIV would still in my imagination be low? Sorry but all these statistics give me some self assurance that I have not contracted HIV from this sex worker.
Whilst potentially there is a risk that I have contracted HIV as is whenever you have unprotected vaginal sex with a person of unknown status, I will ensure that I don't have unprotected vaginal sex anymore with anyone whose sexual status I am not aware of. Thank you very much - hope you have a great day.

[J3rrY]

Also, say this was the situation:
Me: No STI infection
Her: Genital herpes, Chlamydia, HIV

Am I at a much higher risk of contracting HIV if I contract Chlamydia & Genital herpes from her. I'm not sure how things work but logically speaking, surely there would be some of the HIV virus in Chlamydia & Genital Herpes.

At the moment, I feel as though I have contracted the virus as I am getting sick - but then again, it could be due to the change in weather here in Australia.

Thank you once again.

[Ann]

Jerry,

You are WAY over-thinking this. Forget about all the stats and where a person comes from and all the rest of that blathering.

The bottom line is that ANY time you have unprotected anal or vaginal intercourse with someone of unknown or positive hiv status, you are putting yourself at risk.

People are not high or low or no risk, ACTIVITIES are high or low or no risk. I don't care what a person does for a living, what they look like, where they come from - ANYONE can be hiv positive. Hiv does not discriminate and neither should you.

So I gotta ask - have you ever had unprotected anal or vaginal intercourse with anyone else? Like women you've dated? Because if you have, then you've been putting yourself at risk all along, not just when you hooked up with a sex worker.

It's not WHO you do, it's HOW you do it.

And as for your assertion that you do not have any other STI - how, exactly, do you know this? Have you had a complete sexual health check up lately? Because if you haven't, and you've been having unprotected intercourse with women other than the sex worker, you just might have something you're not aware of. Many STIs - notably chlamydia, gonorrhea and syphilis - can be present with no obvious symptoms.

Now the good news is that you are highly unlikely to end up poz over this one-off incident. Hiv is more difficult to transmit from a woman to a man. However, this does not mean that you have not had a risk - you have and you do need to test.

The earliest you should test is at six weeks. The vast majority of people who have actually been infected will seroconvert and test positive by six weeks, with the average time to seroconversion being only 22 days.

A six week negative must be confirmed at the three month point, but is highly unlikely to change.

You also need to test for the other STIs as well. The earliest you can test for these is ten days to two weeks following the incident, although syphilis shares a three month testing window with hiv for a conclusive result.

You need to wise up and learn from this - and remember that it's not only sex workers who may be infected with hiv or some other STI. Here's what you need to know in order to avoid hiv infection:

You need to be using condoms for anal or vaginal intercourse, every time, no exceptions until such time as you are in a securely monogamous relationship where you have both tested for ALL sexually transmitted infections together.

To agree to have unprotected intercourse is to consent to the possibility of being infected with an STI. Sex without a condom lasts only a matter of minutes, but hiv is forever.

Have a look through the condom and lube links in my signature line so you can use condoms with confidence.

Anyone who is sexually active should be having a full sexual health care check-up, including but not limited to hiv testing, at least once a year and more often if unprotected intercourse occurs.

If you aren't already having regular, routine check-ups, now is the time to start. As long as you make sure condoms are being used for intercourse, you can fully expect your routine hiv tests to return with negative results.

Don't forget to always get checked for all the other sexually transmitted infections as well, because they are MUCH easier to transmit than hiv.

Use condoms for anal or vaginal intercourse, correctly and consistently, and you will avoid hiv infection. It really is that simple!

Ann

[J3rrY]

Hi Ann,
 Thank you for the reply. I engage in mostly protected sexual intercourse (apart from twice in my lifetime, to my ex girlfriends) and I had a blood/urine test done the other day - im still free of any STI (excluding genital herpes & genital warts, which they did not test me for although I would have preferred to get tested for them as well even though i have never experienced any symptoms/spots/bumps on my penis yet).

 I wanted to specifically ask as you did not mention earlier, say this worker had chlamydia, genital herpes & HIV. If I was to contract say genital herpes and chlamydia from her, would i then almost be guaranteed to contract HIV with it as well?

 I asked her at the end how long she had been doing sex work for and she said 2 months (although shes in her late 30s). I then also asked how often she gets tested and she said weekly. She mentioned something about how she picks up guys from the pub and as a result, gets tested regularly. But then again, who is to trust a complete random? 

 Now, assuming she was HIV positive, basically my chances of contracting HIV from this exposure are pretty much near zero? I don't like looking at statistics either as I always consider myself to be one of that small unlucky minority but is it really THAT DIFFICULT to contract? I had no visible sores on my penis/cuts but there could have been some microscopic cuts on my penis (I don't look at my penis with a telescope). Also, whilst sadly and unfortunately it does happen, if 1000 people were to have 30 minutes of unprotected vaginal sex with a HIV positive woman, how many of these people would you estimate on average to contract this virus (assuming that the woman did not know she had the virus)? Without being disrespectful and rude, do you know of many people who had contracted the virus (although unfortunately it does happen) from one time exposure from woman to male in real life and/or from this forum?

I am deeply saddened to have put myself in this situation and I will endeavour to ensure that it does not happen again - all this stress is not worth half an hour of pleasure at all and HIV for life. And I also do apologise for wasting your time due to my silly behavior.

Thanks and sorry again. 

[Ann]

Jerry,

All of our risk assessments in this forum are always given with the assumption that the other person is hiv positive.

No, you are not guaranteed to become infected with hiv if she has some other STI. It increases your risk slightly, but it is by no means a guarantee.

As I advised you earlier, forget about statistics or what has happened to other people. Forget about what this woman has or has not done in the past - all that matters is what YOU did with her. Neither statistics nor the experiences of other people will tell you a single thing about your own hiv status - ONLY testing at the appropriate time will.

Keep your mind busy with other things while you wait for the appropriate time to test. All you'll do if you keep researching stats and whatnot is drive yourself nuts and make yourself ill with worry. Knock it off and chill out.

I expect you to test negative, but you must test to make certain.

Ann

[Andy Velez]

Jerry,

All of our risk assessments in this forum are always given with the assumption that the other person is hiv positive.

No, you are not guaranteed to become infected with hiv if she has some other STI. It increases your risk slightly, but it is by no means a guarantee.

As I advised you earlier, forget about statistics or what has happened to other people. Forget about what this woman has or has not done in the past - all that matters is what YOU did with her. Neither statistics nor the experiences of other people will tell you a single thing about your own hiv status - ONLY testing at the appropriate time will.

Keep your mind busy with other things while you wait for the appropriate time to test. All you'll do if you keep researching stats and whatnot is drive yourself nuts and make yourself ill with worry. Knock it off and chill out.

I expect you to test negative, but you must test to make certain.

Ann

Jerry, I am responding to you here rather than to your PM in that mode. Our rule is to keep the exchanges in your thread. And yes, like Ann I think you are very likely going to test negative. But you need that negative test result to be sure. While waiting to test I suggest you make a real effort to focus on other matters in your life. Doing that will make the waiting time pass more easily than you may imagine is possible. Don't bother saying you're too worried to do that, because that response is not going to fly here. Just do it.

[Ann]

Jerry, I am responding to you here rather than to your PM in that mode. Our rule is to keep the exchanges in your thread.

Jerry,

If you read the Welcome Thread before posting like you're supposed to, you will have read the following posting guideline:

Do NOT use Private Messages to question other members about any transmission, testing or symptom issues. These issues must be discussed in the public forum. Misuse of the PM function in this manner will result in your PM privileges being removed without warning.

I have removed your PM privilege.

Ann

[J3rrY]

Hi & sorry, it won't happen again. Just another quick question, assuming she had only been recently infected & had not known herself about it, and we then had unprotected sex, how likely would it be that I would get infected through unprotected vaginal sexual intercourse (as the insertive partner). Looking at the odds & stuff online (not that I will look at them too much) but generally speaking, if 1 unprotected sexual encounter with a HIV person woman is something like 0.08, then how much would that increase by if she actually had a high viral load? Would it be something like still under 1%, or are we talking about something like 10%-20%, that is, big increase in % etc? Thanks

[Ann]

Jerry,

Those 1:whatever numbers you see come from a study that was discredited years ago. They basically pulled those numbers out of thin air and they have no scientific basis.

The bottom line here is that you had a risk and you need to test. All the fretting and worrying about your chances are not ultimately make a bit of difference to your result.

You have an excellent chance of testing hiv negative - but the ONLY way to know for sure is to test at the appropriate time. All the speculation in the world isn't going to change that.

Ann

[J3rrY]

Even if she had a high viral load? When should I first get tested? Thanks for the reply.

[Andy Velez]

Jerry, you are not listening. Ann has already told you early on that the earliest you should test is at 6 weeks. Assuming you get a negative result at that time, it would be a strong indication you are likely to test negative at 3 months.

You need to be taking deep and slow breaths when you tense up. It seems as if all you are listening to now are the scary thoughts that pop off in your mind.

We still expect you to come out of this ok.

[J3rrY]

Hello,
 You are definitely right when you say that I am listening to the scary thoughts that pop off in my mind. I have read about two people who have contracted HIV from their female partners from only one time vaginal sex, and this is coupled with flu like symptoms that I am currently experiencing. Now I know that these symptoms are probably nothing more than the flu (as there are currently a lot of people getting sick as well, especially as the weather has become a lot colder during the last week) but it still plays my mind - is it a coincidence that this has occurred now OR are they symptoms of HIV, only a week and half after exposure. Symptoms include runny nose, sore throat & also a little bit of a headache - no fever as of yet.

Ann, what about those studies conducted where HIV+ women were having regular sex with their uninfected male partners, and all but one got infected with HIV (and even then, I think they were saying something like it was probably due to needles and drug use).

I've been reading a lot lately as well (I should probably stop) but based on what I am reading, people/doctors are pretty much saying that heterosexual transmission of HIV from woman to man is rare, near-zero and/or some even claim non-existent. Is it really THIS HARD to transmit the virus from female to male, and I am extremely likely to test negative (I will take a test in 5 more weeks to be sure)? Also, as stupid as this question may sound, but do tehy test for HIV in urine samples these days? 

Knowing my bad luck this year, including having a few bad health things happen to family members when the statistics were in favor and highly likely for us, I also think I have contracted HIV somehow. I made her wet by fingering her for a few minutes and had repeatitive doggy style and had her on top sex positions as well (for half an hour) as cuming inside of her so I find it hard to think that I will be lucky enough to escape this. If I am somehow one of those lucky ones to get tested as negative, I think I have learnt my lesson and will never engage in unprotected sex unless i know the partner well. I think I am also better informed about STI's as a result of numerous readings and this forum. I just hope I don't test positive based on one stupid error.

[Andy Velez]

None of your symptoms are HIV specific. Neither presence nor the absence of symptoms will ever tell you anything reliably about your HIV status.

The only test you can use for HIV is an HIV specific test. There is no urine test for HIV.

Frankly there is nothing more to be said beyond that you have some waiting time to test. And the odds are in your favor that you will test negative.
 

[Ann]

Ann, what about those studies conducted where HIV+ women were having regular sex with their uninfected male partners, and all but one got infected with HIV (and even then, I think they were saying something like it was probably due to needles and drug use).

I've been reading a lot lately as well (I should probably stop) but based on what I am reading, people/doctors are pretty much saying that heterosexual transmission of HIV from woman to man is rare, near-zero and/or some even claim non-existent. Is it really THIS HARD to transmit the virus from female to male, and I am extremely likely to test negative (I will take a test in 5 more weeks to be sure)?

Jerry,

I'm not aware of the study you reference. Or if I am, I'm not recognising it in how you describe it.

I can tell you this - I was with an hiv negative man for a year and a half before I was diagnosed with hiv. We didn't use condoms and as our relationship was still in its "honeymoon period", we had plenty of sex. We used condoms after my diagnosis, but not before. We were together for a total of just over eight years. He tested hiv negative after my diagnosis and he is hiv negative to this day.

While hiv IS more difficult to transmit from a woman to a man, female to male transmission is NOT rare, it is NOT near-zero and it is most certainly NOT non-existent. My current partner is hiv positive and he definitely got it from a woman (not me) and I personally know two other men who definitely got it from unprotected intercourse with women (not me).

As Andy said, the odds are definitely in your favour of testing negative following this one incident - but you do have to test.

Keep your mind on other things while you wait for the appropriate time to test. We are not here to hold your hand during this time and we will not permit you to attempt to use this site in that manner.

There's nothing further for us to add - and don't bother coming back with another laundry list of symptoms. If you feel unwell, see a doctor. It's highly unlikely to have anything to do with hiv.

Ann

[J3rrY]

Thank you for the reply. Just one more quick question - have you come across, or do you know of many people who have contracted HIV from a one time vaginal sexual intercourse from female to male? Thank you & god bless.

[Andy Velez]

Can't think of a single example where that happened.

[Ann]

Me neither.

[J3rrY]

Thanks for the replies. Now without being too much of a pain, I wanted to learn about and ask one more question about transmission during the first few months of infection. I will go get tested sometime in 2-4 weeks so then I will know for certain but assuming that she has only been recently infected with HIV (sometime in the last 12 weeks), I have read that I would be at a MUCH HIGHER (those were the exact words used) risk of contracting HIV. But how much higher would my risk be? Would you still say the odds would be in my favor of testing neg even from one exposure during a time where the virus would be 'highly' more infectious? Thank you and please understand, im not trying to ask any stupid questions but some sensible questions.

[Andy Velez]

But you're still pasting bits and what ifs together and trying to get us to quantify your risk. We can't do that beyond what we've already said.

And that is to say that the odds are very much in your favor against transmission having occured during that single incident.

If you continue to return with more of the same I have to tell you that you are risking getting a Time Out from the site. You need to hang in until you can do your initial test. If you get the negative result at 6 weeks which I expect, that will be a strong indication you'll be conclusively negative at again at 3 months. 

[J3rrY]

So for some good news - I went to my Sexual Health Clinic and the test was done! Now for the bad news - I have one week of waiting. She told me that my risk of contracting HIV is LOW and so I hope to come through negative as most of you predict. I will let you know how I go - I still feel as though I am positive until the tests turn out negative (hopefully)...

[J3rrY]

I phoned in yesterday to ask whether or not my results came through. I was relieved to hear that they did but was really nervous for 2 minutes while waiting for them. As a said earlier, I would let all you know how I went. Given the fact that there has never been a recorded transmission of HIV through sex with sexual workers in Australia; given the fact that only approximately 2,500 women from approximately a population of 12,500,000 have HIV; given that a one time exposure from female to male was extremely difficult to achieve; given the fact that she may not even have HIV in the first place - my results, almost 7 weeks from the exposure came out negative for Chlamydia, Syphilis, Gonoorhea & most importantly, HIV. Should I even be worrying anymore about getting another test at the 3 month mark? Or should I just move on with my life? My current results should be 99% correct meaning I only have a 1% chance of contracting HIV even if she did have it. I am now also sick at the moment, at the 7 week post exposure mark and this would be too late for ARS HIV symptoms to show, now wouldnt it?

Secondly, this is just for knowledge but say a chick was HIV positive and she was rubbing her 'wet' vagina and then immediately started masturbating a HIV negative person's penis, including touching the top where the urethra opening was, what would be the likelihood of the HIV negative male contracting HIV?

[jkinatl2]

I phoned in yesterday to ask whether or not my results came through. I was relieved to hear that they did but was really nervous for 2 minutes while waiting for them. As a said earlier, I would let all you know how I went. Given the fact that there has never been a recorded transmission of HIV through sex with sexual workers in Australia; given the fact that only approximately 2,500 women from approximately a population of 12,500,000 have HIV; given that a one time exposure from female to male was extremely difficult to achieve; given the fact that she may not even have HIV in the first place - my results, almost 7 weeks from the exposure came out negative for Chlamydia, Syphilis, Gonoorhea & most importantly, HIV. Should I even be worrying anymore about getting another test at the 3 month mark? Or should I just move on with my life? My current results should be 99% correct meaning I only have a 1% chance of contracting HIV even if she did have it. I am now also sick at the moment, at the 7 week post exposure mark and this would be too late for ARS HIV symptoms to show, now wouldnt it?

Secondly, this is just for knowledge but say a chick was HIV positive and she was rubbing her 'wet' vagina and then immediately started masturbating a HIV negative person's penis, including touching the top where the urethra opening was, what would be the likelihood of the HIV negative male contracting HIV?

The likelihood?

Probably that of HIV mutating to a virus in which that method of transmission were remotely possible. Which is not zero, of course, as nothing in science is ever zero. But if it happens, it's basically a sign of the zombie apocalypse.

In other words, no risk whatsoever. Seriously, you thing there aren't HIV positive women having sex with HIV negative men all over? Serodiscordant relationships are far from uncommon.

You ONLY get HIV from unprotected anal and vaginal sex.

Sexually speaking.

I am honestly not sure how many ways to parse those words.

[J3rrY]

Anyway, with my results 7 weeks negative, is it safe to say that I am negative without no further testing really warranted?

[Andy Velez]

That negative at 7 weeks is excellent. But you do need to test at 3 months for a final and conclusive negative result. And yes, I do expect you will test negative again.