Are vegan diets okay for HIV?

[Johnperk]

I'm undetectable.

I've read mixed things on the internet. Some sources say it's okay, while others say it can be harder while HIV and to incorporate eggs/ fish.

I personally like the lack of meats and dairy because I feel my skin looks healthier. Also, I feel better.

Thoughts?

[Jeff G]

Its OK if you are eating the right food groups . I personally feel like its important for HIV positive people to have a diet that includes lean cuts of meat for protein . 

[Johnperk]

First, I didn't realize there was a thread similar to this...so mods can delete this if they want.

Anyway, thanks for replying Jeff G. I find meat to be expensive for me and it makes me break out. Im tired of trying to gain weight (been trying my whole life) lets face it im never going to be a muscle man. I just want a diet that is healthy for HIV and makes me feel good. I like the vegan stuff... so simple and yummy yet fun to prepare and make.

[buginme2]

Sure why not.  I don't think I've ever read that there are special nutritional requirements or limitations for someone with hiv who is otherwise health and undetectable.   At least not outside what is generally considered good eating habits like everyone else...eat right and exercise etc etc. 

May want to make sure your doctors aware do they can monitor, check your vitamin d levels and what not.

I say knock yourself out and spare the chickens life.  That's just my opinion and I'm a dumbass.  So. 

[Keepstrong]

hi

I'm a vegan for health reasons.

You dont need meat for protein, im sorry but that is dumbass. And you dont need milk for calcium, thats what they say also. look it up its proven by science.

I just finished reading the 80/10/10 diet book by douglas graham. its a great book. I recommend it for anyone starting out on vegan eating.

[Keepstrong]

Look up gary yourofsky on youtube. If he cant convince you to go vegan then id like to know why. he is harsh but speaks the truth nothing but the truth. open your heart drop your ego and listen to him.

[wolfter]

nutrition is a complex issue and it's ok to have your opinions but it's simply wrong to suggest that others' ideas are "dumbass" and such.  Be vegan is you choose, but don't think for a moment that it's always the best route.

[bocker3]

Look up gary yourofsky on youtube. If he cant convince you to go vegan then id like to know why. he is harsh but speaks the truth nothing but the truth. open your heart drop your ego and listen to him.

Ummm, why would or should anyone be CONVINCED to go vegan??  If you want to be vegan, go for it.  Humans have evolved to be omnivores -- that is what the majority eat in order to get all their nutritional needs met.  There is nothing wrong with following a different path, but most people are not going to do so.  If you don't want people to tell YOU what to eat, stop trying to "convince" others that your way is the "best" way.

M

[Keepstrong]

of course its just my own choice and I'm not saying people should be vegan but hear me out. Its the make up of our body's, we are herbivores, yes we have evolved and learned that the meat needs cooked to eat it but that does not change the fact that our digestive system is still the same.. meat and dairy is the biggest contributor to the many disease and illnesses that are able to be diagnosed in this day and age. our bodies produce enzymes that digest the meat, this enzyme is what fights unknown bacteria in our bodies and it all gets used up because we eating so much meat and dairy..... I prob came across harsh with that dumbass comment, my apologizes, i was just trying to state that you dont need meat for protein, get plenty of protein from fruit and veg, if you look for that truth you will see it because i guess you have not done that. okay maybe you will have to check which fruit and veg can give you certain protein amino acids as they say meat gives you all the required 'amino acids' but why should you even cover up the fact that meat is poisonous to out body's

[bocker3]

but why should you even cover up the fact that meat is poisonous to out body's

One of the most ridiculous and over the top things that I've ever read.  Meat is not poisonous to human beings.  Humans are NOT herbivores -- rather we are omnivores.  I see nothing wrong with you (or anyone) being a vegan - it's your choice -- but don't try to spin it into the "best", "true" way to eat, because that's hogwash.  If it were the best way, humans would have evolved to be herbivores -- but we are not (no matter how much you say it).  We may eat too much meat today, but that's a different story.

M

[Richie_R2]

I actually admire the Vegan lifestyle - not for health benefits but because it really is energy-efficient in terms of the amount of resources and sunlight (per unit of food consumed, thus per acre of land required per calorie) than meat by about a factor of ten. That said, it's like Christianity... my admiration of you stops once you preach to me about it, especially if you do it because you assume the only reason I don't agree with you and live the way you live is because you think I just... don't... know... enough about it!

Once lived in a town with a lot of vegans. Some were so adamant about it, they'd ambush you at parties, even when you were the host. A little high one night at a party I was throwing in my home, I decided I wanted a big glass of chocolate milk. This vegan comes up right as I'm about to take a sip and, right in front of about 20 of my guests in the kitchen/dining area, declares "Don't you KNOW that milk is mostly made up of PUS!?!" (Dead silence ensues, as cup hovers in front of my face.) So, I wait one beat, then take a gulp, and declare, "Mmmmm, pus!"

Freakin' vegans. Don't have room for the shouting match I got into with one who came to MY house to excoriate me about the leather riding/racing suit I wear every day because I ride motorcycles. Oooh that one got under my skin. And under my leathers! Heh.

Oh, and while meat itself is *not* poison, it's true that America's reliance on factory meat mass-production, with all the hormones and antibiotics and other horrors associated with it, plus the additives in packaging and preserving it, can often be harmful to humans. As pozitoids, we would all be well served to find a local butcher who can prepare our meat without these things, and who sources from free-range, non-hormone, "organic" operations. Many health benefits from keeping those poisons out of our systems-- for those who can afford it.

[Keepstrong]

Vegans are extreme because it is extreme, the murdering of innocent animals. what right do humans have to kill and eat them.

I could go on and on but there isn't point on me wasting my time because Your deluded and need to open your mind up and i guess your past the age for making changes, i will let other people make there mind up. thank you

[wolfter]

Vegans are extreme because it is extreme, the murdering of innocent animals. what right do humans have to kill and eat them.

I could go on and on but there isn't point on me wasting my time because Your deluded and need to open your mind up and i guess your past the age for making changes, i will let other people make there mind up. thank you

OMG, yes you're waisting your time!  preaching amen.

[Richie_R2]

In the words of Tool's song "Disgustipated" :

And the angel of the Lord came unto me,
Snatching me up from my place of slumber,
And took me on high, and higher still until we
Moved in the spaces betwixt the air itself.
And he bore me unto a
Vast farmland of our own midwest,
And as we descended cries of
Impending doom rose from the soil.
One thousand, nay, a million voices full of fear,
And terror possessed me then. And I begged,

"Angel of the Lord, what are these tortured screams?"
And the angel said unto me,
"These are the cries of the carrots,
The cries of the carrots.
You see, Reverend Maynard, tomorrow is harvest day
And to them it is the holocaust."
And I sprang from my slumber drenched in sweat
Like the tears of one millions terrified brothers
And roared,
"Hear me now, I have seen the light!
They have a consciousness,
they have a life, they have a soul.
Damn you!
Let the rabbits wear glasses!
Save our brothers...can I get an amen?
Can I get a hallelujah? Thank you, Jesus."

Life feeds on life feeds on life feeds on life feeds on...
This is necessary.

[Richie_R2]

On a side note, as someone who has made a hobby over the last couple of decades of arguing with religious fanatics (and I consider Vegans to be such, right next to Southern Baptists and other evangelicals), has anyone ever noticed that almost without fail, the person who is preaching about how "your going to hell" (or whatever) never manages to use "you're" correctly, or have a solid grasp on english grammar and spelling in general?

[Jim Allen]

nutrition is a complex issue and it's ok to have your opinions but it's simply wrong to suggest that others' ideas are "dumbass" and such.  Be vegan is you choose, but don't think for a moment that it's always the best route.

I think it's good to have Vegan's around. I mean when the food supplies ever run out we can eat them first.

On a serious note I think a well balanced diet is best that includes dairy, eggs and meat.
I do avoid fish, but that's just because I find the idea of fish disgusting.

[Dachshund]

On a side note, as someone who has made a hobby over the last couple of decades of arguing with religious fanatics (and I consider Vegans to be such, right next to Southern Baptists and other evangelicals), has anyone ever noticed that almost without fail, the person who is preaching about how "your going to hell" (or whatever) never manages to use "you're" correctly, or have a solid grasp on english grammar and spelling in general?

You had me until you started ragging on folk's grammar. If you don't know if English is their native language or their education level then it ain't cool to play that card.

[Richie_R2]

It's true, and if that is the case, I sincerely apologize and admit I had not considered that angle.  Person I insulted: if that is the case, you may PM me and I will apologize at length and with all sincerity. I would never deliberately make fun of a person trying to learn another language, especially my own.

That said, I have spent twenty years in arguments/discussions with people who like to preach in that manner, many of whom I know personally are born and raised and educated here in the United States with english as their first language, and yet they speak in exactly that way. There is a distinct link between someone telling you that "you have no moral compass because (***insert reason here***)" and the misuse of common terms like your/you're and there/their/they're and to/too/two. Those, to me, are not usually indicative of a foreign first-language but of a person who simply did not pay attention in school and yet feels they can lecture others about intellectual subjects like theology or dietary science. Grammar/syntax mistakes made by foreign-language speakers are usually distinct from the types made by the merely ignorant, based on the structure of their native tongue (e.g. the russian language is spoken without the use of articles, so a Russian speaking english might say "I have to go to store").

[Dachshund]

I don't know if there is a distinct link or not. That's hard to prove. There are a variety of reasons people use bad grammar. On an open forum it's just not cool to bring it up. It impedes discussion.

[Richie_R2]

Dachs - Wasn't trying to "prove" anything. I have observed it literally hundreds of times over two decades, in nearly every such echange I've seen. It was never my intention to catalog or record these instances in order to prove it to others; they are simply my observations, enough to be statistically significant results in my mind, and that is all I was trying to say. But you are correct, it was nevertheless an ad hominem attack, and I should not have engaged in it. Just brought out a bit of the frustration in me, after all the aforementioned encounters, to see the same out of a vegan board member, who would otherwise be welcome to talk with us about Veganism and how it impacts an HIV+ person's diet and health. Veganism as a practice, like religious observance as a practice, is a Good Thing (tm). However, when it becomes "holier than thou", I tend to retaliate in kind. Again, not my intent to quash dissent on the board or make anyone (aside from the evangelist) feel uncomfortable, and only uncomfortable insofar as they were getting snippy with us and got snipped right back. Thanks for checking me and setting me straight, Dachs!

[Jim Allen]

Dachs - Wasn't trying to "prove" anything. I have observed it literally hundreds of times over two decades, in nearly every such echange I've seen. It was never my intention to catalog or record these instances in order to prove it to others; they are simply my observations, enough to be statistically significant results in my mind, and that is all I was trying to say. But you are correct, it was nevertheless an ad hominem attack, and I should not have engaged in it. Just brought out a bit of the frustration in me, after all the aforementioned encounters, to see the same out of a vegan board member, who would otherwise be welcome to talk with us about Veganism and how it impacts an HIV+ person's diet and health. Veganism as a practice, like religious observance as a practice, is a Good Thing (tm). However, when it becomes "holier than thou", I tend to retaliate in kind. Again, not my intent to quash dissent on the board or make anyone (aside from the evangelist) feel uncomfortable, and only uncomfortable insofar as they were getting snippy with us and got snipped right back. Thanks for checking me and setting me straight, Dachs!

Well they are still welcome to talk to me and others I presume about Vegan diets if they like. Spelling errors or past behavior of Vegans does not close me at least from being open to talking about the subject now. (Or at least I won't hold the behavior of others against them)

I try to stick with attacking the post (content) and not the poster.

[Jeff G]

Vegetarians need to realize that when you look into the loving sweet brown eyes of an animal there are many recipes that can make those eyeballs delicious . Just saying .   

[Dachshund]

Dachs - Wasn't trying to "prove" anything. I have observed it literally hundreds of times over two decades, in nearly every such echange I've seen. It was never my intention to catalog or record these instances in order to prove it to others; they are simply my observations, enough to be statistically significant results in my mind, and that is all I was trying to say. But you are correct, it was nevertheless an ad hominem attack, and I should not have engaged in it. Just brought out a bit of the frustration in me, after all the aforementioned encounters, to see the same out of a vegan board member, who would otherwise be welcome to talk with us about Veganism and how it impacts an HIV+ person's diet and health. Veganism as a practice, like religious observance as a practice, is a Good Thing (tm). However, when it becomes "holier than thou", I tend to retaliate in kind. Again, not my intent to quash dissent on the board or make anyone (aside from the evangelist) feel uncomfortable, and only uncomfortable insofar as they were getting snippy with us and got snipped right back. Thanks for checking me and setting me straight, Dachs!

We're cool. Don't get me started on the "gluten intolerant." They are open season.

[wolfter]

I actually spent valuable life time (mere moments) wondering if I was the subject of the grammar Nazis before realizing I don't GAF.  Editing posts as if we're writing to our comptrollers as opposed to supposed friendly interaction ....hmm?

Those here who know me and have met me in person know my ideology about this entire issue.  I have no issue with what people gorge upon as long as they reciprocate.  I stand by my earlier post. 

Oh, and for those whom aren't aware.......I don't agree with eating anything that could have been a pet.    I find it not to my liking but would never disparage others for their choices.

[Jim Allen]

Vegan talk makes me hungry.
Tonight having Veal and a side order of cute baby bunny rabbits, no carrots.

[initforlife]

I love a good vegan diet the onions and mushrooms  go great with  my bacon cheese burger 

[Richie_R2]

JeffG - HA!! 

I once had a Vegan demand at a near-shout, in my living room and before guests, "How can you eat anything with a face?!?!"

I replied, "Because face meat is the tastiest!"

[wolfter]

These responses are so incredible!  I'll give myself a self imposed time out as it's beyond my comprehension how it's ok to deride a thread with sanctimony and thoughtless responses. 

[zach]

I'll give myself a self imposed time out

 

[initforlife]

Sorry Wolfer I'm so lmao.  What's up you don't have a sense of humor anymore?  Come on  we are just having some fun! not like we are going to serve you meat hidden in your salad .

[Miss Philicia]

As a vegan have you cleared your closet out of leather shoes, belts, etc.? And don't forget to check all of your beauty regimen products for animal testing!

[wolfter]

Sorry Wolfer I'm so lmao.  What's up you don't have a sense of humor anymore?  Come on  we are just having some fun! not like we are going to serve you meat hidden in your salad .

You're correct.  Don't hide meat in my salad and I won't  slip you life saving meds.   

[Richie_R2]

I'm not tryin' to hurt your feelings, Wolfter... but man you gotta RELAX!

Wow, I thought I was the one who was too serious all the time.

I know it can be hard to laugh along with people when they're mocking something you consider sacred. Would you be laughing if a superconservative evangelical Christian came on here from Westboro Baptist Church and made disparaging comments to us about being "fags" and "fag enablers" (my favorite derisive comment of all time... I want it on a t-shirt!), and we were slinging some fun back in their direction? For instance, when I went on a date with my ex-girlfriend and a couple with whom we were friends, and we saw the Phelps family protesting en masse outside the theatre because it was a Shakespeare play by the Royal London company (apparently meaning "gay" to the WBC folks, even though it was Othello, arguably the most heterosexual thing ever written), we switched couples so my girlfriend was walking with his girlfriend and I was walking with him, hand-in-hand. When they screamed homophobic things at us as we walked by, my GF kissed his GF and I kissed him. Moustache and all!   

That is one of my Favorite Things I Have Ever Done. And if WBC came on here and I told that tale about harrassing evangelists, obviously a favorite pastime of mine, would you laugh? Or would you keep making comments of disgust, as you keep doing to my recent posts because I am addressing your particular Sacred Cow? (Heh.)

Laugh. Yuk it up! In return... you can mock heteros or atheists or carnivores or bikers all you want, if done in a non-cruel spirit. Mock all my Sacred Cows. I don't mind.

[initforlife]

LOL DEAL!

[wolfter]

Sorry Wolfer I'm so lmao.  What's up you don't have a sense of humor anymore?  Come on  we are just having some fun! not like we are going to serve you meat hidden in your salad .

.

I've copied this so I can remind myself of your post.  What you find funny might be issues for others.  Go ahead and laugh your ass off but I'll be able to return the favor.  I have a great sense of humor but would never use it at the expense of others.

[wolfter]

Vegetarians need to realize that when you look into the loving sweet brown eyes of an animal there are many recipes that can make those eyeballs delicious . Just saying .   

As much as I adore and respect you, I find this totally out of line.  just saying

[initforlife]

.

I've copied this so I can remind myself of your post.  What you find funny might be issues for others.  Go ahead and laugh your ass off but I'll be able to return the favor.  I have a great sense of humor but would never use it at the expense of others.
What expense of others? Now I'm confused the meds or the vegan?  If it is the meds then well I wish y'all stop telling me I'm dying because I'm not  and that's the end of that.

[zach]

DON'T MAKE ME PULL OVER!!!!

[Jeff G]

As much as I adore and respect you, I find this totally out of line.  just saying

If you want to report me to a moderator then go ahead, no one is forcing you to post or even read this thread you are getting the vapors over .

[initforlife]

DON'T MAKE ME PULL OVER!!!!

  LMAO!

[Richie_R2]

I can't believe I posted about "that time I kissed a dude", and nobody reacted at all.

Tough crowd.

[initforlife]

I can't believe I posted about "that time I kissed a dude", and nobody reacted at all.

Tough crowd.

LOL  Well that's kind of not out of the normal here. so really not funny. btw I kiss guys all the time!

[wolfter]

If you want to report me to a moderator then go ahead, no one is forcing you to post or even read this thread you are getting the vapors over .

I already saw the your orginal post before it was deleted.  I have no desire to continue to ignite embers but am wondering why you think I need to report anything?  In your time time as a moderator, did I ever report anyone?   

I'm sorry that I ever responded to a thread that means so much and has such relevance for me personally. 

[Joe K]

I can't believe I posted about "that time I kissed a dude", and nobody reacted at all.

Tough crowd.

Um... you do realize that many of us are gay.  Now if one of us, kissed a woman, that would be news.

Joe

[Richie_R2]

Joe - Yeah but I think the context made it obvious that I'm straight. So it was my moment with the "Dark Side of the Force", so to speak. Thought it might be worth a little celebration.


Wolfter - please read the long post I wrote, above. We're really not trying to hurt your feelings. I promise! Can you help us understand why this is such a touchy subject for you? And, given the tendency of many Vegans (particularly the ones who attacked on this thread) to get so evangelical and "in your face" / "holier than thou" with us, why does it hurt you when the volley-fire is returned in kind at them?

Nobody was attacking you, nobody was really trying to do harm other than "shoo" away someone who was being derisive and derogatory toward those who don't share their anti-meat viewpoint, especially given that they were using false science to do it and I helped to prop up part of their argument with actual science in my original posts!

So, in the interest of peace, can you think about it, and let us know what's really going on here?

[Joe K]

Joe - Yeah but I think the context made it obvious that I'm straight. So it was my moment with the "Dark Side of the Force", so to speak. Thought it might be worth a little celebration.

Oh I got the reference, but you would hardly be the first straight guy to go to the dark side... especially after a six-pack.   

Joe

[Richie_R2]

Yeah, soon after my Dx, in college, I rented a spare room from a HIV- (but supportive of + community) gay guy who "specialized in hunting married men on the DL" (his words). I'd go to bed in the evening, seeing them drinking together, and in the morning I'd get up to go jogging and see them stumbling out of the back bedroom, catch my glance, and assume The Walk of Shame shuffle. *sigh* Wasn't judging, guys! Walk proudly!! What a way to live one's life, lying to themselves.

My mom's a theatre professor; I've been around gays quite literally my whole life, long before I was diagnosed. In many ways I'm more comfortable in that society than in regular society. Just... don't like boys. Pity, that.

[Joe K]

Try not to generalize over subjects you know little about.  I was a married man at one time, because the society I grew up in kept telling me that being gay was wrong.  That somehow, by sheer coincident, I was created as an eternally flawed human being.  My family told me, so did my church and society had no issues with tormenting, beating and even killing gay men.

I was married for 10 years, until I could no longer conceal the real me.  I hurt a lot of really great people, by being closeted and I lay that blame solely at the feet of society.  You have no concept of what it is like, to grow up, surrounded by straight people, who can express affection in public and being gay, where our love was not only forbidden, but punished.

Sodomy laws were only recently overturned and this crap about Freedom of Religion laws are nothing more than another attempt to oppress us, all in the guise of religion.  Millions of evangelicals are going to have their heads explode if the SC rules gay marriage is constitutional.  We are far from winning the war for "our" equal rights.  Rights that you have always enjoyed, simply because of the way you were born.

You don't understand what it feels like to be considered a second-class citizen.  Me and millions more just like me do, because society has been reinforcing that message on us, since the day we were born.

Joe

[Richie_R2]

Joe,

   Despite being raised in a hyper-fundamentalist environment, I've always been an active and vocal supporter of the gay community, and am an open Secular Humanist (agnostic by philosophy, atheist by opinion), liberal, and pozzie activist. From the Deep South.  I have some idea. Just because I am not myself gay doesn't mean that I cannot understand second-class citizenship or how hurtful it is to have to live a lie or hide one's true feelings even from ourselves because of society's prejudices. It certainly doesn't mean I am not sympathetic!
   I was not in any way mocking those men. I was expressing my sympathy for the lives they had to lead, sneaking away to have sex the way they actually felt was right and then returning to lie to their wives and children, simply because society felt the need to oppress them. I celebrated Lawrence v. Texas in 2004 when that decision was announced, on behalf of human rights everywhere. I wish they could have held their heads high, and recognize the horror it must be to feel shame upon sobering up even when faced with someone living in a house with an openly gay man since, as far as they knew, I was likely gay, too. Indeed, as Rick (my old roomie) was very muscular and "butch", while I am young-looking and small-framed, I was often accused of homosexuality by people who were aware that someone in That House was gay via the rumor mill... particularly since, early on, I was open about my HIV+ status (before being driven into the closet by a wave of hate and bigotry that turned violent at a couple of points and drove me out of my home state in shame and fear). My own mother referred to a girlfriend I brought home, after years of not speaking to my family from their initial rejections, as a "beard" because she assumed my HIV+ status obviously meant I was gay! Some of my family members still will not talk to me.
   I am horrified that in the 21st century, we still have people trying to enshrine bigotry into law in this country, or to maintain the hegemony of the straight WASP culture that suppressed so many people for so long. I am horrified that teens still kill themselves over this at such a high rate because of how they are treated, though I see many of the new young activists on this subject as a very good sign. I believe with all my heart that someday, I will have to explain to my grandchildren why non-straight people were treated so badly, and will not have a good answer in the same way that my grandparents could not explain why people felt free to use the N-word and disparage people for being non-white.
   Though I do not understand how my comments were taken in the light they were, I apologize to anyone whose feelings I hurt by making them. I was trying to show support and tell a funny story, that is all. I recognize the privilege enjoyed by straight persons, by white persons, and by the wealth-privilege of coming from an upper-middle-class background's educational system, and just finished posting an excoriation of one of my uncles who attacked gay marriage advocates and minimum wage increase advocates on Facebook in his recent posts.
   It hurts me to hear what you have been through, and I hope with time you've found peace, and love and acceptance, from those in your previous life.

[Joe K]

Maybe I took the "lying to themselves" comment the wrong way.  I never lied to myself about being gay, I just wasn't strong enough to come out and face whatever repercussions they would be.  I never had to come to peace with my previous life, because everyone disowned me, including my father.  He could accept that I was poz, but not that I was gay.

My marriage was annulled because I'm gay and strangely enough, the first person to forgive me for everything, was my mother-in-law.  I lost all my friends from my previous life and found a new family within the HIV community.

Joe

[Richie_R2]

Ah, I hadn't thought of that phrase in that way. I meant "lying to themselves" in terms of "I can just go on living this pretend life, sneaking around like it's something shameful I have to hide, having my Show Family, and eeeeverything will work out fine", know what I mean?

My family have mainly come around, over the years, even my fundamentalist parents. That had a lot to do with having met The Woman of My Dreams, whom they adore, and having a child with her, whom they adore, so at last they seem to recognize that "it's okay, he's NOT really gay!" Which, to be honest, upsets me. Like you said, okay to be HIV+, but not gay. What a world! My aunts have been pretty good, as have many of my cousins (I'm half-Cajun, so it's a BIG Catholic family, even though my mom "turned Baptist" when she married my Baptist father), but my two siblings still won't even speak to me. Nor about me. It's like I don't exist anymore, as far as they're concerned. That crushes me, every time I think of it, including now.

[Joe K]

I firmly believe that there is a part of me that allowed myself to become infected.  It's a long story, but my experiences as a child, left me with enormous abandonment issues, so I tried to be as pleasing as possible to everyone.  Deep inside, I knew that I would have to come out and by becoming poz, ALL the truth came out.

It's like knowing I needed a major jolt to blow me out of the closet...  I just couldn't place the bomb directly.  HIV became my catalyst... the good and a world of hurt.

Joe

[Richie_R2]

Joe - This is some pretty deep stuff. I'm on parole so I can't, and I don't even know if you do, but I think this kind of conversation would best be had over a beer and a hookah-full of kush. Wow. Meanwhile, just... hugs, man. Hugs.

[Joe K]

It's not so much as deep, as simply a reflection of my life.  It took me a very long time to see myself as I really am and I share my world, so that other people will realize that we all have our issues.  With any luck, my experience helps to ease the pain of others, who, for no other reason, know they are not alone.  I'm a firm believer in knowledge is power.  The more we know, the less we have to fear.

Joe

[wolfter]

So sorry for usurpng this thread.I thoiught I was being respectful on something I had/have a little knowleddge about. 

Modified to add that i WILL demenish each and every person who thought it cool to deride others.  Been here for a while and this beyond what I  comprehend. This entire thread makes me feel like a fraud

I won't let any door hit me. 

[Richie_R2]

Wolfter - Man I understand where you're coming from, and I appreciate that you tried to rein in the hostile attitude of Keepstrong, but when someone says something like this:

Vegans are extreme because it is extreme, the murdering of innocent animals. what right do humans have to kill and eat them.

I could go on and on but there isn't point on me wasting my time because Your deluded and need to open your mind up and i guess your past the age for making changes, i will let other people make there mind up. thank you

...you can expect me to react with verbal counterattack. They don't get to drop bombs like "murder" for this subject any more than they do for anti-abortion-rights conversations or anti-HIV+ persons conversations (I've seen both, online and in person), and then expect people not to counterattack. If they're going to call me a murderer, I'm going to point out when they do it in what sounds/reads like a third grade education. Especially when they just tortured-and-abused the word "science" moments before... a pet peeve of mine.

What I can't understand is why you are so upset. I get that you seem to have Vegan beliefs, but you also obviously aren't the type to belittle people for not having the same beliefs. We didn't and won't attack you simply for voicing your beliefs. You seem like a nice person, and it's no one's intent to run you off, only to find out why you're so upset about this. I wish you would explain.

By the way, good use of "usurping." Underused and most excellent word.

[Almost2late]

I think vegans are very compassionate people and although I'm not one, I've tried it and just couldn't shake off my desire for meat.. Whats most upsetting is the way these animals tortured to death before hitting the supermarkets..

"Warning, Do not watch if the torturing of animals upsets you"..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5oTCA9V3eNs

I remember in another thread how people got up in arms over circumcision, so its understandable vegans having this view about animals.

[Richie_R2]

Almost - If you see my earlier posts, you'll see I'm in total agreement with you (and with Vegans) on the horrors of our meat industry. Part of my old career as an environmental scientist / field biologist was to analyze the aquatic environs for impact based on runoff from those facilities. Didn't even get to go inside the buildings, and just the sounds and smells are enough to leave lingering nightmares, on occasion. However, I consider it a reason to utterly and immediately reform the system in its entirety, not a reason to abolish the overall practice... rather like my views on prison, come to think of it.

[shaunsag]

As a vegan have you cleared your closet out of leather shoes, belts, etc.? And don't forget to check all of your beauty regimen products for animal testing!

My grandmother who lives with me is a vegan, and she has plenty of leather materials in her room, she is not a animal rights activist, she is just a 100% vegan, Seventh Day Adventist.

[wolfter]

What I can't understand is why you are so upset. I get that you seem to have Vegan beliefs, but you also obviously aren't the type to belittle people for not having the same beliefs. We didn't and won't attack you simply for voicing your beliefs. You seem like a nice person, and it's no one's intent to run you off, only to find out why you're so upset about this. I wish you would explain.

I'll try to state this eloquently without posting so quickly that I'm ashamed of my own spelling again.    What I had an issue with is that people were belittling another poster's beliefs.  He might not have been gracious in his wording, but I found the comments over the top. 

You don't have to believe in others' ideologies, but shouldn't we learn to respect them?  I guess seeing a bunch of homos making fun of something they don't believe in just riled me a bit.    What could have been a respectful debate/conversation turned ugly for me. 

[Dachshund]

Yep, that's what I got from it. The carnivores going straight for the throat. The OP asking a simple question, turned to blood-sport.

I've worked in the restaurant industry for years and have never found vegans to be the caricature many assume. Most call ahead to see if you can do vegan, but don't seem put off if you can't. I'm not vegan (too lazy) but I do think it makes the planet a healthier place.

[initforlife]

Just so y'all know I was only making humor with food not the person! I love y'all here and if you can't joke about food or anything else . then world Is a lot sadder then I thought.. I don't have many days I laugh anymore but once in awhile I see or read something that does make  , but honestly if you thought it was against you personally then I say I'm sorry !

[bocker3]

Vegans are extreme because it is extreme, the murdering of innocent animals. what right do humans have to kill and eat them.

I could go on and on but there isn't point on me wasting my time because Your deluded and need to open your mind up and i guess your past the age for making changes, i will let other people make there mind up. thank you

What got me was Keepstrong's statements in earlier posts about meat being toxic to humans and that humans were herbivores - neither of which are true.  Add to that is desire to "convince" others to go vegan and then this quote, which showed me that he has no openness to others.  I tried to be respectful of his choice, but pointed out that he needn't try to convert others and that he really needs to not change facts to fit his view.

Granted - others probably did go over the top, but you have to admit that there is little more annoying than someone spinning the truth to try and convince others that their way isn't only, the best, it's really the only way.

BTW -- it wasn't the OP that set this off -- he started this thread and last posted in Jan.  it was Keepstrong who took the more aggressive, "you're deluded" if you can't see why eating meat is bad, stance.  It's his militancy that, I believe, smacked folks the wrong way.  Be vegan if you want -- but let others eat as they choose.

Mike

[Richie_R2]

I hear you, Wolfter. I think we've all made it pretty clear, if not at first, that we do not have a problem with Vegans or vegetarianism, and most of us even support it (including me) as a lifestyle choice. Me, I simply relayed my firsthand experience with other deliberately cruel statements Vegans have made to me, in their fanatical zeal, enough to give me a bad taste for the "religion" in general. I feel the same way about Christianity, thus my use of the term religion. If people want to dedicate their lives to it, I respect and even admire that, but the instant they start to attack or insult me because I do not share that belief, I will retaliate in kind. Simple as that. Fundamentalist Christians are particularly bad about saying nasty things to nonbelievers like me, then getting all butt-hurt when I say much less cruel things to them in return. It's called the Martyr Complex:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martyr_complex Quote: "In psychology a person who has a martyr complex, sometimes associated with the term victim complex, desires the feeling of being a martyr for his/her own sake, seeking out suffering or persecution because it either feeds a psychological need, or a desire to avoid responsibility. In some cases, this results from the belief that the martyr has been singled out for persecution because of exceptional ability or integrity." (emphasis mine).

What I had an issue with is that people were belittling another poster's beliefs.  He might not have been gracious in his wording, but I found the comments over the top. 

Wait, what?! He wasn't "gracious in his wording"? He called us all murderers (!!!), and was extremely unkind in his phrasing overall. You should have been defending us, Wolfter, not him. Being a Vegan doesn't give anyone a right to attack others, nor does it make it an attack on you if I counterattack that person. I am glad you're a Vegan. Some of my favorite dishes ever cooked for me were made by Vegan chefs (oh, how I still fantasize about that Vegan carrot cake, made with no egg, no sugar... and a tofu frosting that was to die for!), and I hope to have more of the same in the future. I myself go one or two days a week where I deliberately cut out animal products and focus on fresh vegetables and fruits and greens; I made a veggie-and-peppers stirfry last night that was to die for!

Hope you're feeling better after your fall. I'm sorry you got hurt, but the telling of it in the other thread made me smile for a solid hour. You are your own pratfall instructor!

[Richie_R2]

Sorry for the length of that. And for how serious I get about this... which makes me verbose.

Final note: I object to "murderer" for more than the obvious reason, as it's the main accusation made in court of a Poz person accused of non-disclosure (he was trying to MURDER the victim...) and I'm really touchy about it as I would never harm any person not trying to harm me first, plus as a scientist by training and profession prior to arrest, and still by philosophy, telling me I am closed-minded for disagreeing with someone is one of the most unkind things you can say to me. Period.

[wolfter]

Goodness gracious (as granny would have said), thought we were finally getting past it.  I've had many people here I care about make funny comments; eat a burger already and such.  It means nothing if  tempered with humor, love and understanding.

Being assigned to manage the kitchen at the post has been fun.  Everything from learning that if you eat meat, if shouldn't be recognizable to allowing bloody slabs of meat be served. 

I don't make opinions and have never impressed upon others my dietary beliefs.  Actually, it has been the other way around and I've never derided them and mostly and they reciprocate.  I have seen our salad sales rise.  Granted, I discount them a tad and throw a little animal parts on it.  But it goes well. 

As you all can tell, I'm not allowing this to piss me off again thereby ruining a great evening.


I relaxed with my evening meal wondering just how much of a jerk I am. 

[Richie_R2]

Good! Wolfter, you have a great evening.

[wolfter]

I'm certainly not vegan.  I would have to rid my closets of too much.

[Richie_R2]

Oh. Sorry! Vegetarian, then? That's a horse of a different color, as they say.

But we'd still love you, whichever you were. And now I want to make some food and bathe while eating it. That's a great idea!

[wolfter]

You still don't get it?  It isn't what I believe but rather responses in the manner that I found beyond rude.  And yeah, it is time for me clock out. 

[Jeff G]

Long before this thread ever happened I was hoping to find a place in Memphis that served this . http://www.madmeatgenius.com/2010/02/roasted-pig-head.html

There is nothing wrong with eating meat and yes … I want to eat the face off a pig and sample his eyeballs . There is nothing wrong with being a vegan either .

[Richie_R2]

Wolf - slow down, read again. Of course I get it. I never failed to get that you were interjecting on a general principle. What *I* objected to was that you called his stuff "worded badly" when he was using the most venomous things I could even imagine to say to someone, unless you added "baby" to "murderer", yet making fun of his grammar was somehow beyond the pale? That's why I said you should have defended us, not him. I did not attack him for his beliefs. I did not judge him for his beliefs. All I did was tell personal stories of encounters with zealots of that particular stripe... and was trying to express my delight that you were also a Vegan (so I thought) and yet able to not speak as a zealot.

In other words, I am saying that I don't judge anyone simply for belief. Whether or not you're vegan or vegetarian or a 100% carnivore, I don't care. I. Don't. Care!

I love, respect, and treat with kindness all people who are kind and thoughtful and broad-minded; I counterattack anyone who uses words as weapons of cruelty. The responses were "in the manner" of the attack that began it, and far, far less "rude" or cruel.

So, WHAT THE FORK ARE YOU SO SENSITIVE ABOUT?! Did you really expect us to let someone get away with that, in the name of "play nice, kids!", when they are calling us closed-minded murderers? Seriously!?! That's why I asked you to explain your personal level of sensitivity, since I didn't think it stemmed simply from your food-related beliefs. You're not going to sit there and condescend to me, "you still don't get it", because I won't play nice with people who are vicious to me, and expect me to feel bad because you are sensitive.

Sigh. This exhausts me. Now I really need food and a bath.

[Joe K]

I'm exhausted by this thread and the constant back and forth.  Let's just drop the subject... please.

Joe

[wolfter]

 

[wolfter]

I'm exhausted by this thread and the constant back and forth.  Let's just drop the subject... please.

Joe

is this as member or a moderator?

[Joe K]

is this as member or a moderator?

It's as both.  Personally, I think some of you are beating a dead horse.  As a moderator, I already got a modreport on this thread, so I can't separate my roles by commenting here.  I believe that all that can be said, has already been said, more than once, so let's just let it go.

Joe

[wolfter]

It's as both.  Personally, I think some of you are beating a dead horse.  As a moderator, I already got a modreport on this thread, so I can't separate my roles by commenting here.  I believe that all that can be said, has already been said, more than once, so let's just let it go.

Joe
  ok

[wolfter]

It's as both.  Personally, I think some of you are beating a dead horse.  As a moderator, I already got a modreport on this thread, so I can't separate my roles by commenting here.  I believe that all that can be said, has already been said, more than once, so let's just let it go.

Joe
  ok

Yet I remember what was said just mere days ago.  ;0