Author Topic: U.S. to screen visitors for HIV status by checking pink papers (Read 27079 times)

Iggy · « **on:** July 24, 2007, 02:32:56 pm »

Quote

The European Commission quietly approved an agreement this Monday which gives the US Department of Homeland Security unprecedented access to the personal information of anyone on a transatlantic flight, including details of their sexual orientation.

The DHS insists on the right to use the information for disease control, and there are fears that gay passengers may be singled out as possible HIV risks.

http://www.pinknews.co.uk/news/articles/2005-5008.html

milker · « **Reply #1 on:** July 24, 2007, 02:41:13 pm »

This is seriously bad. And why is the US not asked to do the same in return? gay = terrorist? Do they know that there are heterosexual people that are HIV+ too?

Milker.

englishgirl · « **Reply #2 on:** July 24, 2007, 02:54:57 pm »

when i was in US immigration a couple of weeks ago they gave me a bit of a grilling about why i visited the US so often - asked me if i was married or had a boyfriend??!! dont know what that was about but i felt distinctly uncomfortable and insulted that the implication was that i was a sex tourist. and that was without knowing my poz status...

Quote from the article:
"The agreement adds 19 possible new categories, including information on ethnic origin, political and philosophical opinions, credit card numbers, trade union membership, sex life and details of the passengers' health.

The information will be provided by passengers when making bookings. "

yeah as if im gonna tell them my political/philosophical opinions and all about my (non-existent) sex life and dodgy health just so i can visit my friends and family.

and as if a terrorist is gonna come clean to the travel agent that they are a terrorist.

and i wouldnt like my credit card details getting sent to the US govt either - potential for spying / card fraud alert!!!

this is all a very scary infringement of privacy and I for one will be getting as many people as possible to contact their MP / MEP about it

Iggy - thanks for pointing this out

redhotmuslbear · « **Reply #3 on:** July 24, 2007, 02:58:33 pm »

Quote from: milker on July 24, 2007, 02:41:13 pm

This is seriously bad. And why is the US not asked to do the same in return? gay = terrorist? Do they know that there are heterosexual people that are HIV+ too?

It's a ruse by the closeted homosexual cabbal running the country--make people suspect open Queers, so no one suspects them.

pozattitude · « **Reply #4 on:** July 24, 2007, 03:35:00 pm »

this is the real terrorist

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englishgirl · « **Reply #5 on:** July 24, 2007, 03:44:50 pm »

http://www.bushslastday.com/
bought a sticker of the above but im now thinking that maybe i will be asking for trouble if i stick it on my suitcase...

also, when i got my suitcase back when i got to the states the other week i discovered that the luggage searchers had gone thru it. i had about 10kg of assorted food & drink goodies to give as presents. the only jar they had opened to investigate (despite it having one of those popper things to show that it had not - yet - been opened) was a jar of curry paste!!! what did they think it was 'jihad in a jar'??!! so thanks to homeland security inspectors i then had curry paste leak out of the (now improperly sealed) jar onto my clothes - lovely.

sorry ive gone a bit off topic but its just that 99% of this US screening really pisses me off and i dont believe will stop any terrorists either

sweetasmeli · « **Reply #6 on:** July 24, 2007, 04:00:13 pm »

Quote from: englishgirl on July 24, 2007, 03:44:50 pm

also, when i got my suitcase back when i got to the states the other week i discovered that the luggage searchers had gone thru it. i had about 10kg of assorted food & drink goodies to give as presents. the only jar they had opened to investigate (despite it having one of those popper things to show that it had not - yet - been opened) was a jar of curry paste!!! what did they think it was 'jihad in a jar'??!! so thanks to homeland security inspectors i then had curry paste leak out of the (now improperly sealed) jar onto my clothes - lovely.

And this is one of the reasons why I have decided to travel light with only a carry-on bag whenever I travel to the US - and also why no-one will be getting any presents.

And the DHS can eff off too!

Melia
(who has zero tolerance for infringement of civil rights, overkill and bullshit)

Dragonette · « **Reply #7 on:** July 24, 2007, 04:04:49 pm »

Racist cruel bastards.

That's absoultely disgusting.

I myself will never go to the States. I will never sneak around hiding my meds or posting them in advance and hoping they don't get caught. It's too bad because there are trips I wanted to take and people I wanted to meet, also workwise I am supposed to go to the US once in a while, but it is, along with Australia and China and Russia (and Iran and Saudi Arabia) off the map for me. I don't have much money and I will only spend it in countries that do not breed hate and discrimination against me, such as Thailand, Canada, Morocco, Japan, Mexico and the EU. The evil EU who signed this, wonder if it will mean something for the EU as well.

It might sound full of self importance, like who the F am I, but it's the only thing I can do to maintain a bit of dignity. Just not go. They know that we are sneaking in there and they enjoy tormenting us, we shouldn't give them the satisfaction.

pozattitude · « **Reply #8 on:** July 24, 2007, 04:21:52 pm »

as an American I have to say, PLEASE, do not judge us based on the current administration.
1) BUSH was never elected...his little brother stole the election for him in Florida in 2000
2) 75% of Americans disapprove of the son of a bitch...and yes his mother is a real fucking bitch.
3) Don't let them get away with this shit...rather, come here if anything just to piss him off.

Rich
(who hates BUSH, his family, friends and anyone associated with that fuckwad)

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bryonut · « **Reply #9 on:** July 24, 2007, 04:22:42 pm »

Quote from: Dragonette on July 24, 2007, 04:04:49 pm

Racist cruel bastards.

That's absoultely disgusting.

I myself will never go to the States. I will never sneak around hiding my meds or posting them in advance and hoping they don't get caught. It's too bad because there are trips I wanted to take and people I wanted to meet, also workwise I am supposed to go to the US once in a while, but it is, along with Australia and China and Russia (and Iran and Saudi Arabia) off the map for me. I don't have much money and I will only spend it in countries that do not breed hate and discrimination against me, such as Thailand, Canada, Morocco, Japan, Mexico and the EU. The evil EU who signed this, wonder if it will mean something for the EU as well.

It might sound full of self importance, like who the F am I, but it's the only thing I can do to maintain a bit of dignity. Just not go. They know that we are sneaking in there and they enjoy tormenting us, we shouldn't give them the satisfaction.

wow, your mad huh?

bryonut · « **Reply #10 on:** July 24, 2007, 04:31:16 pm »

I'm not sure why this has become such a hot issue when we really don't know what the actual guidelines will be. When words like "possible" as in "possible new categories..." is included in an article I don't give it much credence, especially when it comes from a news source that has an agenda as well. It is my belief that this agreement is intended to seek out criminals and terrorists not gay people or people with HIV.

In the name of Jesus Christ, amen

bry
(who is a man loving democrat and PWA)

Iggy · « **Reply #11 on:** July 24, 2007, 04:32:29 pm »

Quote from: pozattitude on July 24, 2007, 04:21:52 pm

as an American I have to say, PLEASE, do not judge us based on the current administration.
1) BUSH was never elected...his little brother stole the election for him in Florida in 2000
2) 75% of Americans disapprove of the son of a bitch...and yes his mother is a real fucking bitch.
3) Don't let them get away with this shit...rather, come here if anything just to piss him off.

Rich
(who hates BUSH, his family, friends and anyone associated with that fuckwad)

Arguments about 2000 aside - we certainly did elect him in 2004 and who the fuck gives a damn that we all hate him now when we are the ones who unleashed him to begin with.

Nope - I think the world has every bit a right to be pissed at us Americans.

Iggy · « **Reply #12 on:** July 24, 2007, 04:35:38 pm »

Quote from: bryonut on July 24, 2007, 04:31:16 pm

I'm not sure why this has become such a hot issue when we really don't know what the actual guidelines will be. When words like "possible" as in "possible new categories..." is included in an article

So we should just wait for them to actually begin doing it to get upset?

keyite · « **Reply #13 on:** July 24, 2007, 04:42:38 pm »

Breathtakingly idiotic. You really wonder just what goes on in Washington. Not too long ago I heard the US tourist industry is continuing to suffer severely in the aftermath of 9/11, whereas tourism elsewhere in the world has recovered. Well, little wonder. You're treated to the most draconian measures imaginable if you have the audacity to visit, by officials who are at best surly, but more often downright rude. Measures, more to the point, that will have little or no effect on terrorism. And that, of course, is only after you've queued for hours because not a single US airport appears to be staffed adequately. No other country I can think of treats its visitors with such contempt. No-one in their right mind would not anticipate all their personal information, incl fingerprints, will be kept on file in some CIA bunker.

What makes this new requirement particularly ridiculous is that it apparently will be up to the airlines to collect the data. As if anyone halfway sane is going to volunteer it! Or if passengers are made to, then what's to stop you from lying? I, for one, certainly will be. I'm disappointed, but not surprised, that Washington has pushed this. Far more disappointed, however, that the EU hasn't had the balls to turn the request down flat.

And while we're at it - we're still waiting for the implementation of the easing of the ban on HIV+ tourists visiting the US. Almost eight months after Bush made the announcement!

Unless you really have to, you certainly end up thinking twice about going to the US - such a shame because it's actually an amazing country with some amazing people in it. Personally, I'm thinking of going to Canada on holiday...

bryonut · « **Reply #14 on:** July 24, 2007, 04:44:39 pm »

well Iggy, we can all choose how and when we will react to this recent action. I have chosen to "wait and see"

Sharing opinions not needles,
bry
(who once shared a needle when he was naughty and used drugs)

Iggy · « **Reply #15 on:** July 24, 2007, 04:47:33 pm »

Quote from: bryonut on July 24, 2007, 04:44:39 pm

well Iggy, we can all choose how and when we will react to this recent action. I have chosen to "wait and see"

Sharing opinions not needles,
bry
(who once shared a needle when he was naughty and used drugs)

And thus we have the perfect example of why the Republicans won in 2000, 2004....2008.

pozattitude · « **Reply #16 on:** July 24, 2007, 04:49:50 pm »

Quote from: Iggy on July 24, 2007, 04:32:29 pm

Arguments about 2000 aside - we certainly did elect him in 2004 and who the fuck gives a damn that we all hate him now when we are the ones who unleashed him to begin with.

Nope - I think the world has every bit a right to be pissed at us Americans.

there are speculations about OHIO in 2004, I've heard Brinks rigged their voting machines...just saying...lol
now, as far as having the right to be pissed at all of us Americans, yes, I can understand and relate to that...I am pissed off at all the idiots that voted for stupid and now are crying wolf.

Rich
(who has never voted republican in his life)

Iggy · « **Reply #17 on:** July 24, 2007, 04:52:26 pm »

Quote from: pozattitude on July 24, 2007, 04:49:50 pm

I am pissed off at all the idiots that voted for stupid and now are crying wolf.

Funny but that is exactly what the world is saying about Americans in general.

bryonut · « **Reply #18 on:** July 24, 2007, 04:59:41 pm »

Quote from: Iggy on July 24, 2007, 04:47:33 pm

And thus we have the perfect example of why the Republicans won in 2000, 2004....2008.

yer not being nice

Forums are meant for people to post opinions.

Bry

Iggy · « **Reply #19 on:** July 24, 2007, 05:00:30 pm »

Which is what I stated, my dear.

bryonut · « **Reply #20 on:** July 24, 2007, 05:02:06 pm »

Quote from: Iggy on July 24, 2007, 05:00:30 pm

Which is what I stated, my dear.

fair enough

RapidRod · « **Reply #21 on:** July 24, 2007, 05:19:48 pm »

I think everyone is getting upset over nothing. I believe if you knew the real story it's not HIV that they are concerned about as much as other diseases that can cause havoc. So before everyone gets in a tail spin lets wait and see what it is all about. We freaked on bird flu and nothing came of that. I don't believe anything will come of this.

Iggy · « **Reply #22 on:** July 24, 2007, 05:37:46 pm »

Quote from: RapidRod on July 24, 2007, 05:19:48 pm

I think everyone is getting upset over nothing. I believe if you knew the real story it's not HIV that they are concerned about as much as other diseases that can cause havoc. So before everyone gets in a tail spin lets wait and see what it is all about. We freaked on bird flu and nothing came of that. I don't believe anything will come of this.

I get both you and bryout points. Seriously I do.

However I think them even wanting Sexual Orientation on a check list is enough to be upset about.

Look at the last few years and how often we have been finding out that the U.S. government has misused and abused its own citizens personal information. Look at how they had the show down with the internet companies and libraries over their people's reading lists and internet search history.

Maybe it is just me but I don't need to have the fears realized in order to have my caution raised and ring the alarm. You may choose to see it as a false alarm and that is your decision but I leave you with a request:

If they aren't collecting the information for nefarious reasons related to profiling and discrimination, please provide a logical explanation of why the U.S. governement needs to know that you suck cock before letting you through the airport?

RapidRod · « **Reply #23 on:** July 24, 2007, 06:02:38 pm »

Did you actually read the article Iggy? Gay passengers may be singled out as possible HIV risks. This article has no facts, just presumptions. No more than that. It's an article to entice fear and apprehensions and by reading this thread it's working.

Cliff · « **Reply #24 on:** July 24, 2007, 06:16:11 pm »

Yeah, there does seem to be a lot of jumping to conclusions and hysteria without knowing the full story. Since the HIV ban has been removed, why would the US government need to try and single out gays for HIV exclusion? Wouldn't it be more simple to just keep the HIV ban in place, if you want to prevent HIV folks from coming to the US?

Plus the European Commission agreed to this. Why isn't anyone taking them to task? It's one thing to ask for the information, but to agree to provide such information on your own citizens seems like a much bigger issue.

Also the US government is asking for whatever information is available (race, political affiliation, sexual orientation, union membership)....but says sensitive information such as sexual orientation wouldn't be used. I don't think this is just something against gays or people with HIV. The government is asking for whatever information is available.

pozattitude · « **Reply #25 on:** July 24, 2007, 06:18:23 pm »

scare tactics, isn't that the purpose of Homeland Security...after all, since the end of the Soviet Union, they had to find something to scare us.

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keyite · « **Reply #26 on:** July 24, 2007, 06:46:19 pm »

Quote from: Cliff on July 24, 2007, 06:16:11 pm

Since the HIV ban has been removed, why would the US government need to try and single out gays for HIV exclusion?

Very possibly because the ban hasn't been removed - and it isn't within the power of the President alone to lift the ban anyway. Since the announcement on World AIDS Day 2006 there has been no further details forthcoming. When they do finally get the finger out it looks like it will be a 'categorical waiver', still requiring disclosure and probably attracting a nice fat stamp in your passport, which will no doubt prompt questions as you go to other countries. Not a huge improvement on the status quo.

Quote from: Cliff on July 24, 2007, 06:16:11 pm

but says sensitive information such as sexual orientation wouldn't be used.

Yes, it sure is sensitive information, isn't it? If you're not going to use it why on earth ask for it?

Dan J. · « **Reply #27 on:** July 24, 2007, 06:55:37 pm »

what are pink papers?

Miss Philicia · « **Reply #28 on:** July 24, 2007, 07:01:44 pm »

Quote from: RapidRod on July 24, 2007, 05:19:48 pm

I think everyone is getting upset over nothing. I believe if you knew the real story it's not HIV that they are concerned about as much as other diseases that can cause havoc. So before everyone gets in a tail spin lets wait and see what it is all about. We freaked on bird flu and nothing came of that. I don't believe anything will come of this.

I think it's unfounded hysteria myself. If one really reads the article it only mentions "sex life and details of the passengers' health" without really saying what that means. I would assume the sex part is more geared towards child molesters, etc. There's already now a waiver for HIV so the health part is a non-issue.

This article is bullshit -- I don't see how they plan on ascertaining someone's sexual orientation. Subscriptions to Honcho or something? Come on.

Ann · « **Reply #29 on:** July 24, 2007, 07:26:24 pm »

Quote from: Dan J. on July 24, 2007, 06:55:37 pm

what are pink papers?

milker · « **Reply #30 on:** July 24, 2007, 07:43:26 pm »

Quote from: Ann on July 24, 2007, 07:26:24 pm

ROFL!

Iggy · « **Reply #31 on:** July 24, 2007, 09:23:20 pm »

Quote from: RapidRod on July 24, 2007, 06:02:38 pm

Did you actually read the article Iggy? Gay passengers may be singled out as possible HIV risks. This article has no facts, just presumptions. No more than that. It's an article to entice fear and apprehensions and by reading this thread it's working.

Did you read my actual post that you responded to Rod? You will see I fully account for the may. Check again.

I wonder what your take would be on when they announce that they might cut ADAP do you just say no big deal until they do it?

What if you have a person that is neg and says that they may bareback - do you ask them to come back to you for your thoughts after the fact?

Sometimes just something being contemplated is enough to others and want to effect a change in thought before the action is carried out.

Modified - about your statement of the article's intentions - In regards to this administration - they don't need to do much to entice fear outside of report the truth. Sorry Rod - but the govt acknowledged the they are considering this - so yeah - I think we should be afraid...or at least not asleep at the switch.

Iggy · « **Reply #32 on:** July 24, 2007, 09:32:14 pm »

Quote from: philly267 on July 24, 2007, 07:01:44 pm

I think it's unfounded hysteria myself. If one really reads the article it only mentions "sex life and details of the passengers' health" without really saying what that means. I would assume the sex part is more geared towards child molesters, etc. There's already now a waiver for HIV so the health part is a non-issue.

This article is bullshit -- I don't see how they plan on ascertaining someone's sexual orientation. Subscriptions to Honcho or something? Come on.

Perhaps another article might help - IT week is not a political paper and they acknowledge the sexual orientation aspect as well.

http://www.itweek.co.uk/vnunet/news/2194867/keep-british-personal-years

I truly would love to know what rational reason you can suggest for the government wanting this info?

RapidRod · « **Reply #33 on:** July 24, 2007, 10:56:10 pm »

That article is a big difference from the other article.

Carolann · « **Reply #34 on:** July 24, 2007, 10:58:07 pm »

Well,

The reason why people are concerned is that anti homosexual propaganda was used to get dumb and dummerer in The Whitehouse last time and it is a big strategy for the next elections as well. They still want people thinking gays=HIV= the scurge of the world, deny them their rights here and keep them out of this great land of ours. How did they decide to reduce the humanity of the prisoners in Irak? By posing them in homosexual acts. This is reality. I would not be surprised if the wise people of the UNITED STATES of Amerka elected another Republican Administration again, because people will shoot themselves in the foot just so those dirty homosexuals do not keep encroaching on the morally righteous. It is the perfect way to throw ink in the water and get in the whitehouse again. Yes, everyone should question request of information they have no business knowing, information the closet cases in the administration do not have to answer. Ridiculous!!!!!!

CA

Miss Philicia · « **Reply #35 on:** July 24, 2007, 11:17:47 pm »

I'm still waiting for an explanation of how any government knows everyone's sexual orientation.

Carolann · « **Reply #36 on:** July 24, 2007, 11:27:43 pm »

I think the issue is that they should even ask such a question, thereby forcing people to lie because it is none of their damn business, and they do not know how the information is relevant for someone who just wants to go on vacation.

CA

otherplaces · « **Reply #37 on:** July 24, 2007, 11:36:44 pm »

I was wondering myself how any western gov't would know someone's sexual orientation to begin with also.

This seems alot to do about nothing. Yeah yeah, Bush is bad. I got the memo quite a few years ago. Yeah yeah, the religous right freaked out about gays and gained a whole lot of power after 9/11. But it's over for them. The United States is alot of things. Some not so great. It also has the Gay Mecca of the world...San Francisco. Shit, even the mayor goes to the Gay Pride Parade in Chicago...the capital of the stodgy midwest. It's not black and white, and Bush did do that Presidential Order to grant waivers to all HIV+ people. I think he's a nutjob, but I'll give him credit for that...might as well.

And Dragonette. You mention how you'll visit Japan but not the evil evil US of A. I have a HIV+ friend in Japan. Discrimination there against HIV+ people is WAAAAY worse than it is in the US. Just because there isn't a stupid law doesn't mean there isn't discrimination. Either way Japan is still a really nice country. Funny how that happens.

brian

fearless · « **Reply #38 on:** July 25, 2007, 12:04:00 am »

This is not a new issue but something that has been bouncing around pretty much since 9/11.

My understanding is that the earlier agreement was annulled by the European Court of Justice (or similar) due to privacy concerns. A temp agreement was put in place - I guess this one expires soon or has expired.

From what I understand, when you book a ticket and make travel plans to go from the EU to the US, certain information you provide when buying your ticket are passed on by the airline to the DHS in the US. Similar info is gathered and passed on from Aus, and most likely other places. Things like your email address (if you give one), credit card details (if you use one), itinerary etc are passed on. They don't ask if you are gay, a terrorist, a unionist or anything like that when you buy a ticket, so it's obviously not passed on.

The concerns seem to be about what the US government does with the information you provide, how long they hold it for, and what other information the US adds to it. For example, if you use a credit card to buy your ticket, the DHS may snoop around to check your purchasing habits (ie have you bought lots of fertiliser later, and I guess, do you subscribe to or buy porn with the card - would they really give a rats arse if you did). Similarly, if you give your email address the DHS could potentially access your email account to see who you email, what you say, etc etc. Normally, one would need a supbpoena from a court to do this, but I'm not sure if the DHS requires one.

At the end of the day though, unless you have been doing some fairly suspect things, or hanging with some suspect people I can't imagine that the DHS will be singling you out from the millions of EU visitors to the US each year.

Edited to add: Dragonette. I'm surious why Australia is on your list - we have no restriction on HIV+ people holidaying here, and applications for permanent residency are decided on a case by case basis. Granted, there has been some talk about a blanket banning of HIV+ immigrating here but it was shouted down pretty loudly and I've not heard it mentioned again.

Also, you have Thailand on your list as a place you will travel to. However, Thailand bans the entry of any person with a communicable disease (eg HIV). Granted, for short stays from Aus, we need no visa and no medical check, so it is unlikely they will find out if you don't say anything, but I bet immigrating there is just not an option.

northernguy · « **Reply #39 on:** July 25, 2007, 01:26:26 am »

Why do the airlines the gov't or anyone need to know if you are in a trade union. Is that now a crime too in the land of the far right? Have the globalizers demonized trade unions, the very thing that allowed the average working man to own a decent salary and touch off the post war boom. How far we've fallen. This is way too big brother, I'm shocked that the citizens of the supposed "land of the free" stand for it.

edfu · « **Reply #40 on:** July 25, 2007, 04:48:00 am »

philly:

Do you honestly believe our disgusting, immoral U.S. government doesn't know that you and I are fags? Do you really believe they don't know we are HIV-infected? After all the recent invasion-of-privacy scandals that have recently been reported by our cowardly and intimidated journalists (phone records, e-mails, subscription lists)--which means there's a hell of a lot more we don't know about--isn't it more than a little naive at this depressing, sorry time to doubt for one second that they've got a little list and are checking it twice? Accuse me of paranoia, but, remember, when the truth finally all comes out--if it ever does--I warned anyone who would listen.

It is perhaps a sign of how satanically bewitched the American populace is that the loudest objectors in this link are the non-Americans and that the Americans are the ones here who are defensive and protesting that all of this is a tempest in a teacup. How horrific that so many of our fellow U.S. citizens are failing to fight against the loss of the basic principles embedded in the U.S. Constitution and the Bill of Rights and fail to see or believe what is happening. I worry greatly that we are really are doomed...and I do not doubt for a second that this diatribe of mine here is recorded by the NSA.

Cliff · « **Reply #41 on:** July 25, 2007, 05:01:11 am »

Sorry, but how will the US government know we are "fags"? But is that even a relevant issue? This isn't about what the US government knows or doesn't know, it's about what the EU knows. They are the ones who will be providing this information on their citizens/residents to the US government!

So, how does the EU know that I am a "fag"? I doubt they even know I am HIV positive. I'm fairly comfortable in knowing that my HIV clinic would not share such information without my permission.

Dragonette · « **Reply #42 on:** July 25, 2007, 05:07:56 am »

Quote from: bryonut on July 24, 2007, 04:22:42 pm

wow, your mad huh?

When the Dragon flames....

PS someone asked "how would they know?", if the info is passed from the EU, they would know who is married to a same sex partner, or registered as living together, they might ask directly whom is treated for HIV in the hospital, I mean for sure we are all on the record. It would depend on the discretion fo the particular countries to decide how much info they pass on. An EU member like Poland for example, which is extremely homophobic and practically outlaws homosexuality, could disclose an awful lot.

edfu · « **Reply #43 on:** July 25, 2007, 05:24:39 am »

If the U.S. government is compiling sexual data on non-U.S. citizens, then it is certainly doing so on its own citizens. If the U.S. Centers for Disease Control demands name reporting on HIV cases--which includes mode of transmission (heterosexual sex, MSM, injection-drug use)--I have no doubt this information is available to other divisions of the current fascistic administration. I have no doubt our current government can easily secure the names of those purchasing HAART drugs from pharmacies and insurance companies. And yes, I have no doubt they know who subscribes to "Honcho" and "The Advocate" and make assumptions about same. I know in point of fact that the FBI infiltrated ACT UP during its heyday. It is strongly suspected that the FBI is still infiltrating activist organizations--or what is left of them. And the FBI is child's play compared with what the current National Security Administration is nefariously capable of doing.

Dragonette · « **Reply #44 on:** July 25, 2007, 05:31:08 am »

Quote from: fearless on July 25, 2007, 12:04:00 am

Edited to add: Dragonette. I'm surious why Australia is on your list - we have no restriction on HIV+ people holidaying here, and applications for permanent residency are decided on a case by case basis. Granted, there has been some talk about a blanket banning of HIV+ immigrating here but it was shouted down pretty loudly and I've not heard it mentioned again.

Also, you have Thailand on your list as a place you will travel to. However, Thailand bans the entry of any person with a communicable disease (eg HIV). Granted, for short stays from Aus, we need no visa and no medical check, so it is unlikely they will find out if you don't say anything, but I bet immigrating there is just not an option.

Thailand used to discriminate but changed the law, so many poz ppl go there, I met a bunch of them going to the BKK convention myself b4 I knew I was poz. Here is a link about their policy.
http://www.aidsnet.ch/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=231

Australia, I also heard it was an immigration ban but then a poz Israeli tourist has been turned away a couple months back, though he might have been entering with an intent to stay, I dunno, but anyway he was on a tourist visa, it was in the papers (then it must be true right?

). Anyway I'll be glad to put it back on the map if I'm wrong

Dragonette · « **Reply #45 on:** July 25, 2007, 05:36:24 am »

Edfu,

so long as you are on this track, why wouldn't they simply be checking the IP address of the AIDSmeds forum users?

Fearless, I forgot to mention this before, I know Thailand bans HIV immigration (ironically I have been in and out of that country more than anywhere else incl. the Netherlands), but if I limited my list only to countries that allow me to immigrate it would be very narrow indeed.

I'm just hoping I can eventually move to Spain with my BF. I know they do not officially allow immigration but I do know poz people who have moved there from other EU countries, so am hopeful.

edfu · « **Reply #46 on:** July 25, 2007, 05:49:50 am »

Quote from: edfu on July 25, 2007, 04:48:00 am

I do not doubt for a second that this diatribe of mine here is recorded by the NSA.

Dragonette, that's what I meant by saying this.

Ann · « **Reply #47 on:** July 25, 2007, 07:55:50 am »

Quote from: Dragonette on July 25, 2007, 05:36:24 am

so long as you are on this track, why wouldn't they simply be checking the IP address of the AIDSmeds forum users?

I don't see how anyone who is not a moderator or administrator of this website would be able to access the IP addresses of people who post here - and we certainly do NOT give this or any other information to any third parties.

Besides, IP numbers don't show us where a person lives, other than in very general terms. As far as I'm aware, to obtain any detailed information on a person, going by their IP address, you'd have to go to the ISP from which the IP originates and I do believe that would take a court order. I can't see them bothering to get court orders on every single person posting here - especially considering they don't have access to the IP numbers in the first place.

Ann

indyguy · « **Reply #48 on:** July 25, 2007, 08:01:02 am »

DOOMED-WE ARE ALL DOOMED-THE SKY IS FALLING-RUN FOR YOUR LIVES

edfu · « **Reply #49 on:** July 25, 2007, 08:49:18 am »

To talk about "court orders" or to to say, "There is a law," is meaningless to a government that wilfully ignores all that silly nonsense. They have already been shown to completely ignore the court-order requirement to institute a wire tap. They have shown no compunction in forcing telephone companies to turn over millions of records. Attorney General Alberto Gonzales was eviscerated for the second time yesterday before the Senate Judiciary Committee and accused of lying about pushing through a program that had already been determined to be illegal by the Justice Dept. The committee will have to issue contempt citations for members of Bush's court who refuse to testify. Law (and court orders) are meaningless to an executive branch of government who believe they are above all of that and can do anything they please. When you live in a dictatorship that rules by secrecy, anything goes. You can imprison anyone in a secret location without stating the charges for as long as you please and without bringing him to trial. What is a court order to an executive who ignores the law and the courts?

Andy Velez · « **Reply #50 on:** July 25, 2007, 08:49:36 am »

This is gross, disgusting, stupid and if it goes into effect promises to be yet another enduring residually problematic result of this accursed administration. Once this kind of policy goes into effect it becomes extremely difficult to reverse it.

Initially the ban of HIV+ travelers to the U.S. was simply by presidential order. But then it was attached on to some Federal legislation and became law, signed by Bill Clinton, to his eternal shame.

And not one political person seems to have the integrity or the courage these days to be talking or advocating having that law reversed.

What we're talking about here is the further insidious erosion of EVERYONE's rights in the land of the free...

Miss Philicia · « **Reply #51 on:** July 25, 2007, 09:15:34 am »

Quote from: edfu on July 25, 2007, 04:48:00 am

philly:

Do you honestly believe our disgusting, immoral U.S. government doesn't know that you and I are fags? Do you really believe they don't know we are HIV-infected? After all the recent invasion-of-privacy scandals that have recently been reported by our cowardly and intimidated journalists (phone records, e-mails, subscription lists)--which means there's a hell of a lot more we don't know about--isn't it more than a little naive at this depressing, sorry time to doubt for one second that they've got a little list and are checking it twice? Accuse me of paranoia, but, remember, when the truth finally all comes out--if it ever does--I warned anyone who would listen.

It is perhaps a sign of how satanically bewitched the American populace is that the loudest objectors in this link are the non-Americans and that the Americans are the ones here who are defensive and protesting that all of this is a tempest in a teacup. How horrific that so many of our fellow U.S. citizens are failing to fight against the loss of the basic principles embedded in the U.S. Constitution and the Bill of Rights and fail to see or believe what is happening. I worry greatly that we are really are doomed...and I do not doubt for a second that this diatribe of mine here is recorded by the NSA.

Yeah, I don't think there's a database with my name that also says "Sodomite & AIDS Schmuck" but whatever, even if it DID say this I don't see the US government rounding all of us up and putting us in containment camps.

Anyway, if the government doesn't have the actual database of my medical diagnosis, assuredly it's floating around on numerous OTHER databases at insurance companies, etc. Personally I just don't buy into all of this "OMGOMGWE'REINSECRETDATABASES" bullshit.

Basically I just could care less if the government knows I'm gay and HIV+. In fact, if it makes anyone happy I'll be glad to compose an official letter notifying them of this fact voluntarily.

edfu · « **Reply #52 on:** July 25, 2007, 09:18:51 am »

They already know.

Miss Philicia · « **Reply #53 on:** July 25, 2007, 09:20:57 am »

yet you have no proof of this

mjmel · « **Reply #54 on:** July 25, 2007, 09:38:42 am »

Quote from: Andy Velez on July 25, 2007, 08:49:36 am

This is gross, disgusting, stupid and if it goes into effect promises to be yet another enduring residually problematic result of this accursed administration. Once this kind of policy goes into effect it becomes extremely difficult to reverse it.

Initially the ban of HIV+ travelers to the U.S. was simply by presidential order. But then it was attached on to some Federal legislation and became law, signed by Bill Clinton, to his eternal shame.

And not one political person seems to have the integrity or the courage these days to be talking or advocating having that law reversed.

What we're talking about here is the further insidious erosion of EVERYONE's rights in the land of the free...

Oh man. I'm in shock. Thanks for the informative post, Andy. I had no idea Bill signed this law into effect. Why didn't I know this? No matter. He loses his elevated status with me. I always held him in esteem because he tried hard to get gays in the military to be accepted openly. Now why did he turn and do some shit like this? Again, no matter. It's history now. And law.
Damn.
xxx,
Mike

pozattitude · « **Reply #55 on:** July 25, 2007, 10:32:38 am »

Quote from: mjmel on July 25, 2007, 09:38:42 am

I had no idea Bill signed this law into effect. Why didn't I know this? No matter. He loses his elevated status with me. I always held him in esteem because he tried hard to get gays in the military to be accepted openly. Now why did he turn and do some shit like this? Again, no matter. It's history now. And law.
Damn.
xxx,
Mike

I voted for Bill both times he ran. Although I do like he man, I am very disapointed at his score card when it comes to HIV and AIDS. He could have done more, a lot more.

Rich
(who still loves Bill, but isn't sure about Hillary) $:-\$

RapidRod · « **Reply #56 on:** July 25, 2007, 11:29:41 am »

pozattitude, presidents can't do anything except declare war, other than that they are a figure head for our government. All laws and legislation is done by congress. Yes, the president has veto powers but the congress can over-ride a veto, except that of war.

Miss Philicia · « **Reply #57 on:** July 25, 2007, 12:44:35 pm »

I thought the Freemasons controlled everything!

RapidRod · « **Reply #58 on:** July 25, 2007, 12:47:38 pm »

ROFL, I watched that too Phily. It was interesting.

Dragonette · « **Reply #59 on:** July 25, 2007, 01:48:06 pm »

Quote from: philly267 on July 25, 2007, 12:44:35 pm

I thought the Freemasons controlled everything!

Everything except us Jews who are use them as a convenient cover en route to complete world domination.

BTW that Bee Gee avatar is just so dominant and exploding with unleashed masculinity that it's very hard to focus on your actual words Philly.

poz1970 · « **Reply #60 on:** July 25, 2007, 06:49:57 pm »

Quote from: philly267 on July 24, 2007, 11:17:47 pm

I'm still waiting for an explanation of how any government knows everyone's sexual orientation.

For instance, where i live in australia (south australia), hiv is a notifiable disease, my name is on a government register of people who have hiv... maybe there is something similar to this in the US? (or portions of?)

(albeit, this list is meant to be stored on a non-networked computer in a locked room.. but yer, I don't believe that :-(

J

pozattitude · « **Reply #61 on:** July 25, 2007, 06:57:07 pm »

the US government has always kept a record with the department of health. They were the first to call me when I tested positive and they were pushy assholes, let me tell you.
They wanted to come to my home, and have a detailed history of my sexual life. They kept calling me for a month until I finally told the to FUCK OFF and leave me alone.

Rich
(who at least is glad that he has nothing to hide)

newbernswiss · « **Reply #62 on:** July 25, 2007, 07:38:22 pm »

I'm saddened to read and hear that we again are fair game for the Republican Party here in the United States. I just don't know how United we really are....As a Floridan, when Bush won the election for president I vowed never to vote again, why, he and his brother JEB did as they wanted...they hate gays and they hate anything that has to do with sex and HIV. I only hope that the current generation continues to grow and stand up against such hate.

Miss Philicia · « **Reply #63 on:** July 25, 2007, 07:58:58 pm »

Quote from: poz1970 on July 25, 2007, 06:49:57 pm

For instance, where i live in australia (south australia), hiv is a notifiable disease, my name is on a government register of people who have hiv... maybe there is something similar to this in the US? (or portions of?)

(albeit, this list is meant to be stored on a non-networked computer in a locked room.. but yer, I don't believe that :-(

J

Irrelevant in regards to sexual orientation, unless you believe HIV = gay, or worse that gay = HIV.

pozguy75 · « **Reply #64 on:** July 25, 2007, 08:08:37 pm »

here is my take...the government does know i am HIV poz...the local health department here in Charlotte, NC routinely searches medical records to identify anyone with HIV. I was asked to come in sign an affidavit that if I am caught having unprotected sex I can go to jail. So, don't tell me that they aren't looking into your "private" medical records or looking into your lives...

Basquo · « **Reply #65 on:** July 25, 2007, 08:15:19 pm »

Quote from: edfu on July 25, 2007, 04:48:00 am

how satanically bewitched the American populace is

You just lost all credibility with me. How dare you lump every single American into your little category! Some Americans are very tuned in to what is happening, but choose to stay calm and relaxed about it because they don't want the added stress that comes with this whole doom-and-gloom-and-you'll-never-suck-cock-again attitude.

Iggy · « **Reply #66 on:** July 25, 2007, 08:34:16 pm »

Quote from: philly267 on July 25, 2007, 07:58:58 pm

Irrelevant in regards to sexual orientation, unless you believe HIV = gay, or worse that gay = HIV.

But that is the exact point of the worry here. Yes I fully agree nothing is proven and this is all a big maybe, but we do know that sexual orientation information info is among the items that is being given to the DHS (regardless of what they say they will do with it).

And as far as it not being used by the DHS - does it make any sense that they want it or will accept it. You can not tell me that the DHS will find it easier to sort and filter out data that they don't have any interest in vs. asking the EU not to include it in the first place - that makes no sense from a systems analyst point of view.

My question therefore remains: what rationale reason can any of us come up with for this information being included or wanted?

Grinch · « **Reply #67 on:** July 25, 2007, 08:35:26 pm »

So what I have to believe based on the responses here is the following:

Most of you believe the President writes and passes laws
Most of you believe DHS is controlled solely by the President
Some how you interpret the article in the OP as saying the President asked the EU for this information
Most of you fail to understand that there is a Democratic majority in both house and senate.

Folks Bush is a lame duck, he has very little power. He can't get supreme Court Justices pushed through, he can't ask congress to enact a law without expectation that it will be challenged.
His only real power lies with war in Iraq or anywhere else he choses to declare war. Other than that and the threat of veto he's got nothing.
It's time to find a new target to blame all the ills of the world upon. Bush is done and effectively powerless.
Where will all this anger be directed in another year?

Personally I'd be asking leaders of the EU why they agreed to provide detailed information to anyone.

Carolann · « **Reply #68 on:** July 25, 2007, 09:05:42 pm »

As far as the federal government knowing if you are HIV+, that is a given if you receive any type of government assistance for treatment or purchase of meds. Organizations must report identities of those they are serving tor get funds from the Federal government. They used to report cases without disclosing personal data but that has changed. You can still choose to test anonymously, but if you are low income you must sacrifice anonymity to get treatment.

People with private health insurance are a bit more protected, but who knows what happens to our data once it enters computers. Now there are a lot people who are out of the closet in terms of HIV status and sexual orientation. That is their right, but it is also the right of others to want this information to remain confidential, for endless reasons. Why is this so unreasonable? Why must we continue to give away our privacy and our freedoms. As Bill Maher said the only part of our Freedom that has remained intact, is the right to bear arms, and the right not to have to quarter a British soldier, pathetic really.

CA

pozattitude · « **Reply #69 on:** July 25, 2007, 09:08:32 pm »

Quote from: Grinch on July 25, 2007, 08:35:26 pm

His only real power lies with war in Iraq or anywhere else he chooses to declare war.

BINGO....and guess what, the United States is at war and because of that the lame duck is using "the state of war" to do what he wants without needing to go through the legislative process.
He signed a bill just this past May that will allow him absolute power if he calls for a "state of emergency" if he feels that the country is at risk of being attacked.
So, you see, although the forefathers purposely created the current system of check and balances, the lame duck and his powerful friends have manage to do exactly as they wish.
Yes, I am afraid of what could happen and that is why I can't look the other way.
I am only 1 person, but I still use my voice and I write and call my senator ,congressman and all who represent me in Washington and here in California weekly to let them know I feel.
after all I am "We the People", they work for me, my tax dollars pay their salaries and I won't let them slack off.

Rich
(who asks for impeachment on a daily basis)

edfu · « **Reply #70 on:** July 25, 2007, 09:15:11 pm »

http://www.atlanticfreepress.com/content/view/2011/81/

I urge RapidRod, Grinch, and any others who remain blissfully unaware of how the current administration has become an Imperial Presidency to catch up on the news and read this link, which is an excellent summary. Such citizens obviously do not know of Bush's claims to a "unitary executive" and his "signing statements" attached to every single law passed by Congress, where he alone determines whether he will obey the law. And Basquo's determination to remain "calm and relaxed" while our democracy becomes a dictatorship is tragic and shows only too clearly how we've come to this miserable state of affairs.

Basquo · « **Reply #71 on:** July 25, 2007, 09:45:42 pm »

Quote from: edfu on July 25, 2007, 09:15:11 pm

And Basquo's determination to remain "calm and relaxed" while our democracy becomes a dictatorship is tragic and shows only too clearly how we've come to this miserable state of affairs.

Thank you for directing it at me and not lumping a whole bunch of people in there. But who's this "we"? You got someone in your pocket?

But seriously, you may see my determination as tragic but I don't. I much prefer looking at the beauty in things, and not dwell on things that might get me or my blood pressure riled up (and I said "not dwell" I didn't say "ignore" which is how I got this far into the thread.) I don't want to die clutching my heart while screaming at the TV, I want to die while working in the garden.

But every now and again something really pisses me off, and in this case it was you mixing religion and state and saying it applied to everyone. And I had to reply to that one. I mean, come on, "satanically bewitched?" You were holding your own until you tossed that gem out there.

Basquo the Calm and Relaxed

Grinch · « **Reply #72 on:** July 25, 2007, 09:49:04 pm »

Quote

He signed a bill

And bills originate where?

edfu · « **Reply #73 on:** July 25, 2007, 09:58:47 pm »

Sorry, Basquo, I obviously meant that your approach was a single example of a much larger phenomenon.

"We" = the citizens of the former democracy U.S.A., whose form of government was established by the now-violated Constitution and Bill of Rights.

Grinch · « **Reply #74 on:** July 25, 2007, 10:01:20 pm »

Quote from: edfu on July 25, 2007, 09:15:11 pm

http://www.atlanticfreepress.com/content/view/2011/81/

I urge RapidRod, Grinch, and any others who remain blissfully unaware of how the current administration has become an Imperial Presidency to catch up on the news and read this link, which is an excellent summary. Such citizens obviously do not know of Bush's claims to a "unitary executive" and his "signing statements" attached to every single law passed by Congress, where he alone determines whether he will obey the law. And Basquo's determination to remain "calm and relaxed" while our democracy becomes a dictatorship is tragic and shows only too clearly how we've come to this miserable state of affairs.

Really, we haven't become a dictatorship. The democrats control House and Senate. If Bush doesn't step down when his term is up I'll be first in line with weapon in hand to take back my country, but really, who will you who blame the ills of the world on besides this one man in a year? Why not ask the leaders of the EU why they willingly give up this information? Are you so blinded by hate that you abandon all logic?

And really quoting the atlanticfree press is about as reasonable as quoting Ann Coulter. Congress hold the power to counter anything Mr Bush wants why not hold them a bit responsible?

Basquo · « **Reply #75 on:** July 25, 2007, 10:09:22 pm »

Look, when "We" get tired of it we'll go to the polls. Until Election Day, I choose not to let it consume me. I have better and more beautiful business to attend to. And this is a beautiful country. No President or "dictator" can turn the big blue sky black without killing us all, and in that case it wouldn't matter anyway. We'd have harps to play and old friends to catch up with.

edfu · « **Reply #76 on:** July 25, 2007, 10:18:21 pm »

Yes, Congress is SUPPOSED to "hold the power to counter anything Mr Bush wants," but how can it do this when he does things in secret and refuses to tell them? How can it do this when he declares in his "signing statements" to every single bill pased by Congress that if he feels he cannot follow a law they have passed and he has SIGNED, he is free to ignore that law? His signing of a bill into law now means nothing. Why do you think the Senate Judiciary Committee just issued citations of contempt of Congress against two of Bush's aides because they refuse to testify before the committee?

Not so by the way...bills originate in Congress through unilateral action by a member(s) of Congress or through a member(s) of Congress agreeing to sponsor a bill the President wants passed because of his legislative program. Hundreds of laws have been passed by Congress via a President urging that they do so.

RapidRod · « **Reply #77 on:** July 25, 2007, 10:32:58 pm »

edfu, it nice that living here in the US you can rant and rave about the government. Try living elsewhere. Try ranting and raving in Cuba or Venezuela or Russia and see where that gets you. In the US we are not controlled by a dictatorship, we vote every four years. No matter what our government does not everyone will be pleased with. There are some that it wouldn’t matter what was done they wouldn’t be happy.

edfu · « **Reply #78 on:** July 25, 2007, 10:48:39 pm »

I am "ranting and raving" about an executive branch of government that in secrecy and in subterfuge and in lying has given itself more power than that granted by the U.S. Constitution, completely destroying our tripartite governance with the legislative branch and the judiciary. This is an order of magnitude infinitely higher than and completely different from "ranting and raving," for example, about the government's taxation policies or its environmental policies. I am discussing nothing less than a coup d'etat.

otherplaces · « **Reply #79 on:** July 25, 2007, 10:55:53 pm »

Edfu,

Ease down. Geez. We know Bush is a shitty president. He's also a lame duck.

I've voted ever since I was 18, and I work 8 to 10 hour days at an ASO, but according to you I'm just a sheep being led to slaughter. OK, whatever.

brian

Miss Philicia · « **Reply #80 on:** July 26, 2007, 12:24:29 am »

There's a HUGE difference between concern about signing statements and assertions of a unitary executive and hysteria that the federal government is snooping about my subscriptions to Honcho -- sorry.

fearless · « **Reply #81 on:** July 26, 2007, 02:42:03 am »

Man, has this thread gone right off track or what!

The EU (edit: it's actually the airline passing on information you have provided when booking your ticket) will not be passing on any personal information to the DHS - the EU privacy laws will not allow it, and the last agreement was tossed out by the EU Court of Appeal for this very reason.

The concern is that if your email address and credit card details are passed on (which is what is being proposed) then the DHS has the potential to snoop and find other information about you. But, given the millions of people who visit the US each year, I imagine they would only even bother if your name somehow pops up elsewhere as been a 'person of interest'. And, as Ann pointed out, tracking stuff from say here would most likely require a court order or the like.

This is about preventing terrorism, not keeping track of us dirty sodomites.

Storm in a teacup, I say.

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