POZ Community Forums
HIV Prevention and Testing => Do I Have HIV? => Topic started by: lostincalgary on March 30, 2012, 01:20:47 pm
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Hello Ann and Andy,
Yesterday I had sex with a sex worker and she was transvestite. I will write you what happended as detail as possible to get your true assessment.
I know any penetrative sex without a condom is NO NO. So, I put a condom on, however we did not use lube. I was just inserting the tip of my penis to her with a condom. I was not totally erect. While pushing further gently (since I was not fully erect, my penis was bending and not going all the way in, however the tip of penis was inside her (maybe 3-4 cm inside her ass)), I heard a "pop" and pulled out immediately. Probably I was in her without condom for 1-2 seconds. She looked at me and asked me what happened and I told her that the condom broke.
I asked her if she has anything I should be worried about. She told me she is doing her sex change operation in June so they are checking all her things for sure. Of course you never know.
It is only 20 hours after exposure now. I think I can still can PEP. Can you let me know if I need PEP or not taking in to account the following (I live in Calgary but I do not know the policy for PEP in Calgary)
1) Exposure is insertive anal with a high risk person (sex worker, transvestite)
2) She told me that she does not have anything but you never know
3) Exposure is only for 1-2 seconds while trying to go in deep with a not fully erect penis
4) Possibly the tip of my penis was 3-4 cm inside her.
5) No blood on my penis after withdrawal and no visible sign of trauma around penis head.
Thanks
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Calgary, basically I think you are worrying unnecessarily. Technically you had a risk because the condom broke. But we're talking about a single, very brief possible exposure. And the insertive partner is at much lower risk than the receptive one. All in all the risk was minimal to you.
I certainly don't think doing PEP is warranted. Just mainly for your peace of mind I suggest you get tested. You can do that initially at 6 weeks. A negative at that point will strongly point to a conclusive negative result when you test at 3 months.
I definitely expect you to come out of this ok.
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Thank you very much for your reply Andy.
I know I have a risk. I did not mean to have it, but it happened.
I do not want to play a number game but from what I read insertive anal risk with a HIV + person is roughly 1 in 1,000. Now, there is 50/50 chance that this person is HIV +. So, my chance of getting HIV from this incident is 1 in 2,000.
You and Ann mentioned that in 10-12 years you are working as moderator, you never see any one that turn positive after a one time condom failure. If every month you receive 5 questions related to this issue, it makes 60 in a year so probably you read and advice around 600-720 people that have similar incidents. Luckily none recevied bad news but they are still in the 1 in 2,000 range. Am I going to be a lucky one. I hope not.
I will keep you guys updated on my journey. At this point, I am just waiting to have my test done in 3 months mark.
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And I am certainly expecting your test result to be negative.
Cheers.
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Hi Experts,
I am now at 4 days after incident. I am very anxious, I totally lost my apetite and the worst is wathcing my 2 years old daughter as I know if I tested positive, my wife will take her and leave me forever.
Ironically, I knew all about HIV and how serious it is before making this mistake. I never thought the condom will break with such a mild encounter.
Anyways, I called the transvestite on Saturday (2 days after incident) and ask her HIV status again indicating if she has it, then I would go and get PEP. She first told me that I should use my head as I was barely inside of her (2-3 cm at most) and as soon as the condom broke, I pulled out so my total exposure is not more than 2-3 seconds at most. I told her that I know all that but risk is still a risk and she again told me to use my head and hang up on me.
Couple of minutes later I called her again and this time she told me if she got anything from me which would delay her SRS (sexual regeneration surgery) operation (Most doctors either do not operate HIV+ patients or make sure that their viral load is low and CD4 is high), she would come to Calgary to destroy my life.
I know that she is on hormone therapy and again I read that doctors monitoring hormone therapy also ask for HIV status as HIV drugs reduce the effects of hormonal drugs. I do not know, I just want to believe that she is HIV-.
My biggest question to you experts is as follows;
- She also confirmed that I was inside of her witohut condom 2-3 seconds most. I know for a fact that you need to have enough HIV virus in your body to start the infection. Considering the fact that I was not fully erect (my urethra probably not fully open), not inside of her more than 2-3 seconds, do you still think that my chance is around 1 in 1,000?
Thank you.
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And I am certainly expecting your test result to be negative.
Cheers.
You're way out of line in pursuing the transvestite in the manner you are reporting. It's all about your fear and guilt which are way over the top in relation to a very minimal risk.
You can test at 6 weeks for an initial result and then confirm what I expect will be a negative result with another test at 3 months. Meantime while waiting you need to make a real effort to focus on other matters in your life. Don't bother saying you're too worried to do that. I can tell you that kind of response won't fly here.
Your outsized worrying has no basis in the facts of your situation. Take a breath when you're tensing up and get on with your life. I expect you to come out of this ok.
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Andy,
Will you categorize my risk similar to unprotected insertive anal, or less since I was without protection for only 2-3 seconds at most?
Thanks
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You had a risk that is so minimal it's more theoretical than actual. And I will say again that I expect you to test negative.
Meantime you need to get on with other things in your life. Really.
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Theoretical in what sense Andy. Doctors in other forums indicate that they saw people diagnozed HIV+ after a condom break incident. I do not know know how long these people keep having sex after a condom break.
All I know is, head of my penis was inside of her and with one gentle push I hear the condom break sound and I pulled back. Is there any documented case of HIV transmission like that I do not know.
Andy, Matt, Ann, Rapidpro, did any of you read, heard tramission this way.
Thanks
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You had a risk that is so minimal it's more theoretical than actual. And I will say again that I expect you to test negative.
Meantime you need to get on with other things in your life. Really.
Theoretical as in transmission could happen but in the real world of HIV it is unlikely to occur in the scenario you have reported. Nothing but testing negative can give you the answer you're looking for. But I can say with some certainty that I expect you to test negative. Yours was a very low level risk.
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Andy,
Your last message indicate that you have some certainty that I will test negative. This indicates that you are not fully certain as well.
I did some search yesterday and found out that transgender people have the highest HIV rates (roughly 25%) compared to females or men having sex with men. A week ago I had a totally different life and now I know that I have less than 3 months to enjoy with my daughter as if I tested positive, my wife will definitely leave me.
I tried to call the transgender person again yesterday and ask her about her status. She did not pick up the phone.
I have one question related to Oraquick test. As far as I read, that test is quite reliable. However, I do not think they sell it in Canada. Is it possible to oirder it online from their webpage?
Thank you.
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Lost,
You're more likely to find a paper bag full of thousands of dollars worth of money lying on your doorstep tomorrow morning than you are to end up positive over this very brief incident.
In well over ten years of answering questions in this forum, I have yet to see the insertive partner (that's you) end up hiv positive following a condom break and I do not expect you to be the first.
You need to test just to make sure, but we fully expect you to test negative. After all, the likelihood of you finding that bag of money is very remote, but stranger shit has happened.
You need to stop stressing about this very low risk incident - and you also need to stop harassing that poor woman. Leave her alone!
Ann
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Hi Ann,
Why do you say I am harressing her. All I want to know is her HIV status so I can know my ture risk. I called her today and asked again, she hanged up on me. I sent a text and she did not reply. I am sure she has HIV.
Looking at PEP guidelines of various countries, I found out that regardless of full uninsertive anal sex or condom breakage risk is 1 in 1,000 at best. Further, if you engaged in an activity with a transgender person, regardless of their status they ask you to start PEP. I wish I knew all those 3 days ago. Now it is too late and I will live with it for the rest of my life.
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Lost,
I said you were harassing her because you first asked her about her hiv status when you were with her, then you rang her and asked again, and then you rang her again and again and even texted her - but she had the good sense to ignore your calls and texts. Leave her alone. It's not her responsibility to calm your fears. Your sexual health is your responsibility and your responsibility alone.
Just because someone ignores your intrusive calls and questions does not mean that person is hiv positive. It just means they're not that into you.
You need to stop making judgements about people's hiv status based on their gender status, their job, their looks, where they live or whatever. You need to assume ANYONE you have sexual relations with is hiv positive and protect yourself accordingly by using condoms. Hiv does not discriminate and neither should you.
Our risk assessments are based on what activities you took part in - not WHO you took part in them with. It's not WHO you do, it's HOW you do it.
And our risk assessment in YOUR case is that you are highly unlikely to end up hiv positive over this condom break.
Forget about the 1 in "whatever" incidents of transmission. The study those numbers came from was discredited years ago - and even if it wasn't, those numbers mean absolutely nothing on an individual basis.
If you read the PEP guidelines carefully, you'll find that PEP isn't recommended in a case like yours. And rightly so.
Yeah, I get it. You're stressed and worried. But please do your best to understand that you're worrying unnecessarily. You really are not likely to end up positive over this condom break.
While we're at it, there are two main causes of condom failure.
One is not using enough - or any - water based lube. Make sure you always lube up.
The other - and I suspect this is what happened in your case - is not making sure there is no air bubble in the tip.
When you put a condom on, you need to pinch the tip between the finger and thumb of one hand, while rolling it down with the other. Once it's on, give it a firm stroke from tip to base while watching the tip. If there's air in there, you'll see it. If there IS air present, roll it back up and try again. Once you're sure there is no air bubble, apply plenty of lube and go for it.
You really need to chill out and stop trying to contact this woman. Stay off hiv websites while you wait for the appropriate time to test - and relax, you are most likely to test hiv negative. I've yet to see the insertive partner test positive over a condom break and I absolutely do NOT expect you to be the first.
Ann
edited to correct nonsensical and confusing grammar
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I talked to Aids helpline and later on went to STD clinic. They also told me that this is very low risk and it is unusual to get HIV from one time insertive anal sex that took about 2-3 seconds due to condom break. However, nobody can say that it is NO risk.
STD clinic told me that with the tests they are using now, I should have a definitive answer if I tested in one month mark. I will go for my test at one month mark for sure as I am not sure how long I can survive without eating.
Ann when you say you did not see anyone testing positive after a condom break incident means worlds to me. I hope this includes men having sex with men.
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You actually need to test at 3 months for a conclusive negative result as per the CDC standard.
A negative result at 6 weeks would be a strong indication that you are going to continue to test negative at 3 months.
Stop with the drama and start eating. Even moderately would be a good idea. We expect you to come out of this ok.
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Ann when you say you did not see anyone testing positive after a condom break incident means worlds to me. I hope this includes men having sex with men.
Lost,
Of course it includes MSM.
We never said you had NO risk, but your risk is very much on the low end of the scale. Hiv just is not as easy to transmit as most people imagine. If it were, 90% of the people in the world would be poz by now.
We do fully expect you to ultimately test hiv negative. We prefer people to wait until six weeks rather than four, but whenever you test you are likely to test negative.
Ann
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Hi Ann and Andy,
Thanks a lot for your comments. I just want to give you an update on my status. It has been 3 weeks after my exposure. I know symptoms or lack of symptoms doe not make much difference, however, I still want your guidance.
I did not have any fever, sore throat, rash etc. which is all good I guess. However, I had extereme muscle sores in my biceps and legs for the last 3-4 days. I could well be due to stress but I never experience anything like that and I know mylagia is a symptom of ARS. Is it possible to have just mylagia as an ARS symptom?
I am still waiting for testing. I have another 3 weeks to go for the 6 week mark. However, I will do my best to hold on and extend this to get something more definitive (Maybe 8-9 weeks test would be more reliable).
Thanks
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Nothing you are describing or guessing about symptomatically is in any way HIV specific.
We've essentially said what we can about your situation. You had a low level risk and my expectation is that you will come out of this ok.
And now you need to focus on other matters in your life while you are waiting to test. Believe me you can do that and it will really help to mass the time more easily than you may imagine is possible.
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Hi Ann and Andy (and other moderators),
Just an update on my situation. it has been 8 weeks since my exposure and I decided to wait till 13 week mark to get my test. Since I did not have any symptoms such as fever, sore throat and rash (I talked to a doctor and he told me fever is present in almost 90% of the time during seroconversion), I was feeling pretty good that I will come out of this OK as I have a low risk and no fever or other symptoms such as sore throat, enlarged nodes etc.
However, at week 7, all of a sudden, I started experiencing pain under my left rib cage. They say this mainly happens with enlarged spleen. 2-3 days after that, under my right rib cage started becoming sore (liver enlargement maybe?). My sore biceps are also back. On top of all this, I started having sore throat, slight fever at week 8 and I started to panic.
I guess long story short, did you ever seen anyone having ARS as late as 7 or 8 weeks after exposure?
Thanks
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Hi Ann and Andy (and other moderators),
Just an update on my situation. it has been 8 weeks since my exposure and I decided to wait till 13 week mark to get my test. Since I did not have any symptoms such as fever, sore throat and rash (I talked to a doctor and he told me fever is present in almost 90% of the time during seroconversion), I was feeling pretty good that I will come out of this OK as I have a low risk and no fever or other symptoms such as sore throat, enlarged nodes etc.
However, at week 7, all of a sudden, I started experiencing pain under my left rib cage. They say this mainly happens with enlarged spleen. 2-3 days after that, under my right rib cage started becoming sore (liver enlargement maybe?). My sore biceps are also back. On top of all this, I started having sore throat, slight fever at week 8 and I started to panic.
I guess long story short, did you ever seen anyone having ARS as late as 7 or 8 weeks after exposure?
Thanks
Again with the fussing over symptoms?
This has already been explained to you. You cannot rely on symptoms to tell you if you have HIV. You simply have to wait out the window period and get tested.
Deal with it.
MtD
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I need your help once more. I have been tested negative 3 months after my condom break incident back in March 2012.
This was a big learning to me and I decided not to take the risk anymore ever again and I stopped seeing escorts for a while. Afterwards, I decided that I can see them but I will never participate in any type of penetrative sex even with the condoms as they can fail.
As a result, I keep my activities to protected oral and budy rubbing which I know are NO HIV for sure. Back in March-2013, I decided to see a TS worker. She asked me if I am top or bottom and I said I am top. She got in all fours, put a lubricant and asked me to go in. At that point I did not have any protection. I rubbed the head of my penis to her anus for about 5 minutes. During that time, she was asking me to stick it in and cum in her. I masturbated my penis while the head was touching her anus. During the whole time I am sure the head never went in and I never intended to penetrate her. After I cum on her anus, I cleaned up and she told me I was great giving her to the balls. I am not sure why she said that but I asked her if I was in her at all. Then she changed her attitude and told me that she was just teasing me.
When I got out, I was thinking "Man, this was a close call. You did good not penetrating her for sure". But the suspicion remained. I did not have any ARS symptoms following 6 weeks after that incident. I thought, no-to-low risk, no ARS, so everything is good.
Until, September 2013 when 2 weeks after having sex with my wife, she had sore throat, fatigue and mouth sores. No fever though. Then, my anxiety kicked back again.
On November, that TS was visiting again and I saw her once more. Again the same routine, when it is time for penetrative sex, she got on fours and asked me to go without providing condoms. I asked her HIV status and she told me she is (-) but she seems not caring much. I asked her if I can go bareback and she told me if I pay extra 100$, for sure. Of course, I did not take the offer but this offer confirmed that she is Hiv (+).
How do you guys assess my risk? If my penis head never goes in her anus completely, what is the risk of minimal penetration (if ever happened) of anus during this rubbing incident? Did you ever see anyone getting infected with such brief exposure?
Sorry about the long post and looking forward for your wisdom.
Thanks.
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Please do not start another thread and only post in this one no matter how long between visit or the subject matter . You can go to your profile and select show own post and it will take you here .
Please read this whole thread again, much of it applies to your new incident . If you had penetrated her you would have known it so its doubtful you had a risk but if you are unsure you can test at 6 weeks and again at 3 months to confirm the results .
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Sorry Jeff for posting a new question and thanks for making the correction.
Based on your experience, did you ever see anyone who was infected with similar exposure which is minimal to no-penetration? I am quite confident that the penis head was never fully inserted in the anus.
Thanks.
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Sorry Jeff for posting a new question and thanks for making the correction.
Based on your experience, did you ever see anyone who was infected with similar exposure which is minimal to no-penetration? I am quite confident that the penis head was never fully inserted in the anus.
Thanks.
Rubbing and frottage is not a risk for HIV so since there was no penetration there was no risk .
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Thanks Jeff. As I mentioned, there was no intentional penetration as I keep my penis head in my hands all the time.
I understand that transmission does not hapen outside of the body. For vaginal sex, experts indicate that you need to have full penetration as HIV virus live deep inside the vagina. I could not find anything like that for anal sex, though. Is the transmission take place in the rectum or just past the anus. During frottage, is it possible that, there will be moments where your urethra is in close contact with the anus where there is no air that will inactive the virus?
As far as I understand for the virus transmission to take place, there has to be some fluid with HIV to be present. As I never penetrate her, I am sure I was not exposed to any rectal secretations. However, during rubbing, is it possible for this activity to create damages to the skin on the anus so that minor cuts would happen that will expose my urethra to the virus?
Thanks again for your helps.
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Lost ... I read your concerns carefully and nothing you are asking is going to change my answer . You did not have a risk for HIV from frottage or masturbation . HIV is transmitted from penetrative anal or vaginal sex . No penetration means no HIV .
Please read this whole thread again and you will see all of your concerns have been addressed .
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Hello Moderators,
I just want to give you an update - Tested for all STDs including HIV on March 21st, 2014 which is 1 year after the frottage incident. As you might recall, I was questioning if I dip or not.
Tests results showed that everything is Negative. I recevied the results on March 28th, 2014.
This is a big relief for me. During the waiting period, due to high stress and poor stress management, I engaged in the following activities;
- Saw a TS escort - she licked my anus for about 2-3 minutes. We also did some dick-to-dick rubbing.
- Saw a female escort - she licked my anus and penis unprotected.
I understand that these are NO risk activities for HIV. I appreciate if you can confirm.
Thanks
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I understand that these are NO risk activities for HIV. I appreciate if you can confirm.
Lost,
If you truly understood the risks of HIV infection, you would not be asking for confirmation on no risk activities.
Joe
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You are right Joe.
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You are right Joe.
Lost,
It's not an issue of my being right, it's about your unfounded fears of HIV infection, when you know the realities of HIV risk factors. Having sex should not make you fearful and if you cannot accept the realities of HIV risk factors, maybe you should stop having sex until you do. I do not say this to criticize you, but rather to encourage you to get your feelings under control regarding HIV risk factors, so sex can be the enjoyable activity that it is meant to be.
Joe
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Hello,
Since my last negative test (Mar'2014) I did not engaged in any sexual activity due to the fear of HIV. However, about 5.5 weeks ago, I thought you should get out of this fear zone.
I met with a guy online, went to his place. I performed protected BJ oral on him. I know the risk of oral either way is none for HIV, but I want to make sure I am also safe for other STDs. At the end of the oral, the guy asked me if he can cum on my face. I lay down on the couch and let him stroke himself to ejaculation on my face. I kept my eyes and mouth close to make sure nothing goes in them.
To my surprise, his ejaculation was a lot. All my face was covered. Felt some semen on my lips and eyes. I did not open them and wait for him to bring me a towel. He brought me some wipes to clean it up. Then I went to washroom and also rinse my eyes.
10-15 minutes later, I sense some irritation on both of my eyes and they were moderately red. As you might guess from my past, I have a lot of HIV anxiety so I got worried after that and start reading about risk of semen on eye in terms of HIV.
To my surprise, I saw that while some experts say it is no risk (no one ever get HIV this way) others say that it is higher risk than unprotected insertive vaginal or anal sex as mucous membranes are exposed to harmful bodily fluids. The only thing I found out that blood splash risk to eye, mouth, nose is about 0.09%. Nothing about semen but I know sometimes HIV is higher in semen that it is in blood.
I don't know the status of the person but I think he plays a lot. Does not say much about his HIV status but I always assume they are HIV positive to be on the safe side.
5.5 weeks after the incident now, no ARS symptoms as in high fever, rash, sore throat. I know symptom/ no symptom does not make sense but considering the low risk nature of event and combining it with no symptoms, I want to be optimistic about it.
I appreciate if you can assess my risk and give me some feedback as I even see some positive members of this forum got freaked out having their semen splashed on their partners' eyes.
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It was not a risk ... You know that already .
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Thanks for the quick reply Jeff, appreciated it.
I was also thinking no risk but reading your response to a recent question on Living With HIV forum where someone claiming getting HIV from an eye exposure and you stating that as being undetectable, there is no risk, I was wondering if the guy is HIV with high viral load, then there might be a risk, although small.
Based on your assessment, I take that I do not need to test for this specific incident. Can you confirm?
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No you don't need to test over a no risk situation and you know that as well.
Joe
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Joe is correct, its safe to move on .