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Main Forums => Living With HIV => Topic started by: poet on January 30, 2007, 08:31:03 pm

Title: ADAP an entitlement? Should something be asked back for using it?
Post by: poet on January 30, 2007, 08:31:03 pm
This is coming sideways from an hour discussion (http://www.radioopensource.org/) about public service, military or other, compulsory via a draft or voluntary, a year of service for a year of college.  The Ryan White Act came about, in part, from the argument that so many young lives were being lost, that the cost to our country was so great that we, as Americans, had to do something: to fund drugs and other hiv services.  Is this drawing a circle halfway?  If someone agrees to accepting drug assistance, should that person be asked, be required to give back in some way, through community service, hiv/aids connected or not?  Does this bring the circle back as long as someone is only asked if medically capable of offering service?  If you yourself make use of Ryan White funds, do you feel compelled to do something, to give something back?  Are you waiting for the right call to service?  Do you feel that your current job, whether it's making great money on Wall Street which helps the economy or teaching in a school in fact would justify your using these funds, if you are, or, if you are not, if you are paying your own way through company insurance, how do you see this?  Win
Title: Re: ADAP an entitlement? Should something be asked back for using it?
Post by: aupointillimite on January 30, 2007, 08:55:50 pm
I don't mean to sound flippant at all... but I would think that paying taxes like everyone else would be sufficient.

I think it is highly unethical to offer a program and then demand "volunteer time" to get its benefits.  It's coercion of the needy... and I don't think it's right.

Title: Re: ADAP an entitlement? Should something be asked back for using it?
Post by: fondeveau on January 30, 2007, 09:01:47 pm
A thank you would be more than sufficient.

Luke 17

    11Now on his way to Jerusalem, Jesus traveled along the border between Samaria and Galilee. 12As he was going into a village, ten men who had leprosy met him. They stood at a distance 13and called out in a loud voice, "Jesus, Master, have pity on us!"
    14When he saw them, he said, "Go, show yourselves to the priests." And as they went, they were cleansed.

    15One of them, when he saw he was healed, came back, praising God in a loud voice. 16He threw himself at Jesus' feet and thanked him—and he was a Samaritan.

    17Jesus asked, "Were not all ten cleansed? Where are the other nine? 18Was no one found to return and give praise to God except this foreigner?" 19Then he said to him, "Rise and go; your faith has made you well."
Title: Re: ADAP an entitlement? Should something be asked back for using it?
Post by: AustinWesley on January 30, 2007, 09:08:11 pm
This is coming sideways from an hour discussion (opensource.org) about public service, military or other, compulsory via a draft or voluntary, a year of service for a year of college.  The Ryan White Act came about, in part, from the argument that so many young lives were being lost, that the cost to our country was so great that we, as Americans, had to do something: to fund drugs and other hiv services.  Is this drawing a circle halfway?  If someone agrees to accepting drug assistance, should that person be asked, be required to give back in some way, through community service, hiv/aids connected or not?  Does this bring the circle back as long as someone is only asked if medically capable of offering service?  If you yourself make use of Ryan White funds, do you feel compelled to do something, to give something back?  Are you waiting for the right call to service?  Do you feel that your current job, whether it's making great money on Wall Street which helps the economy or teaching in a school in fact would justify your using these funds, if you are, or, if you are not, if you are paying your own way through company insurance, how do you see this?  Win

Hey Win,

You bring an interesting topic to the table.   My flat out answer is NO.  After all the money and taxes I've paid as well as my family I think I am entitled to some assistance since our government seems incapable of contracting the HIV meds at a reasonable price and then gives away millions to people in 3rd world countries.   At present I do pay for health insurance, but I would not feel at all guilty accepting some assistance.  

Furthermore, as a gay man in this country I'm not even afforded equal rights as others.   As a single man I am contributing to an unfair and disproportionate portion of taxes to subsidize the education and health of others who choose to have children they can't afford.

Personally, I've done my bit for the cause.   I don't have to justify what that has been to anyone.

I'll be really interested to hear some other lines of thought on this topic! ; )

Wesley
Title: Re: ADAP an entitlement? Should something be asked back for using it?
Post by: koi1 on January 30, 2007, 09:08:40 pm
This would be such a non issue if we had universal healthcare. But we don't. And the reality is that ADAP is one of those programs that has to be funded every year, and not all states get the same money for it. No, I don't think requiring people to volunteer is the answer. Then it wouldn't exactly be volunteer work. I am public school teacher but I also volunteer, does that make me a better person? No. In fact it is just something that has made me feel better since being diagnosed.

I feel lucky that I don't have to rely on programs like ADAP, since the quality of the healthcare provided can vary greatly from state to state and even from county to county. But I am with a lot of others on this website that we cannot become complacent and think that ADAP will always be there or fully funded.

 We all need to do our part. Wether it is adopting a protecting others and ourselves attitude, to avoid new infections or superinfections which are both costly in terms of human and financial terms, or some sort of activism.

But that is just my view.

rob
Title: Re: ADAP an entitlement? Should something be asked back for using it?
Post by: aupointillimite on January 30, 2007, 09:19:47 pm
Hey Win,

You bring an interesting topic to the table.   My flat out answer is NO.  After all the money and taxes I've paid as well as my family I think I am entitled to some assistance since our government seems incapable of contracting the HIV meds at a reasonable price and then gives away millions to people in 3rd world countries.   At present I do pay for health insurance, but I would not feel at all guilty accepting some assistance.   

Furthermore, as a gay man in this country I'm not even afforded equal rights as others.   As a single man I am contributing to an unfair and disproportionate portion of taxes to subsidize the education and health of others who choose to have children they can't afford.

Personally, I've done my bit for the cause.   I don't have to justify what that has been to anyone.

I'll be really interested to hear some other lines of thought on this topic! ; )

Wesley

Exactly.

We could go on and on and on about how tax money is appropriated... I could say it goes to pay for highways I don't use since I don't drive, or someone in a low crime area could complain that where I live is seeing an increase in federal funding because of the crime problem in this city... but I think most people in democracies generally shy away (and wisely I think) for complaining too loudly about what's being done with money domestically.

Because I can guarantee you that for every person who needs ADAP funding, there's someone who thinks that the program that pays to keep disease-ridden degenerates alive should be pulled.

So, I don't think that line of thinking gets anyone anywhere.  There are 300 million of us in this country, and we all need something from the government... and some of us more than others.

I suppose I have a rather strong liberatarian streak which balks at requiring anyone to do anything... taxes, yes those make sense.  The draft?  Not so much.  Universal service programs?  No. 

To be free is to have the freedom to say "fuck off to the lot of you" and do it all the while getting ADAP money if you qualify.  And I don't think I'd have it any other way. 
Title: Re: ADAP an entitlement? Should something be asked back for using it?
Post by: koi1 on January 30, 2007, 09:21:07 pm
As far as costing my HMO 1,200 dollars a month, I don't feel guilty. Whole families of my colleagues are insured at 650.00 a per person.  In a family of 5, that is a shitload of money. I have been a teacher for 10 years now and this the first time I have ever availed myself of the insurance benefits. So when the pharmascist said point blank "Do you know that your are saving 1,2OO dollars right now?" when I picked up my very first meds, I said yeah that's why they call it insurance. Thanks for anouncing it to everyone else. " I don't know what he meant by it. Was it to say that I am a burden? Maybe.

I don't feel like it at all. I pay over a third of my salary in taxes and other crap. That's 20 some odd thousand dollars a year that I never see. So would the same issue be raised if I had cancer? Hell no, he probably would not have made that comment. My brother in law took a medication for nausea that was 600 bucks retail. I doubt anybody ever made him feel bad for using his insurance to cover it.

rob
Title: Re: ADAP an entitlement? Should something be asked back for using it?
Post by: Lis on January 30, 2007, 10:19:51 pm
I dont qualify for ADAP... i wish i did... I would do anything!!!
Title: Re: ADAP an entitlement? Should something be asked back for using it?
Post by: tsw923 on January 30, 2007, 10:32:04 pm
I think I have to agree, I don't think I should be FORCED to give back for this.  I am a single woman with no kids.  I pay a LOT of taxes and I pay a LOT for health insurance.  And this is really the first time I've used the system.  The $1200 a month price for meds sucks, but if the insurance companies and the government are upset about it, then they should really do something about the pharmaceutical companies.  And trust me, this is not something I would FAKE to get an entitlement....

Now, in general I have no problem with volunteering and doing for those less fortunate than me in general.  I have done so before I knew my status and I've continued to do so.

Ty
Title: Re: ADAP an entitlement? Should something be asked back for using it?
Post by: MitchMiller on January 30, 2007, 10:39:52 pm
I don't use ADAP... in fact I pay for my own meds.  However, I think if you really need assistance, you shouldn't feel guilty about accepting it.  Actually I probably would, but that is because of the influence of my family in my upbringing.  But that is part of what our society is supposed to be about... providing some sort of safety net for those that need it.
I wonder if you would even think about asking this question if this were a forum for people that had been disabled in a car accident.   It sounds like there is an overhang about the "guilt" of catching HIV.... which is understandable because I feel the same thing.  If you look at things in perspective, people make mistakes all the time.  HIV just happened to be the consequence of the mistake many of us made... so it is no different than the driver that took a turn just a bit too fast on a wet road and ended up disabled from a car accident... making him/her dependent on public assistance.
Title: Re: ADAP an entitlement? Should something be asked back for using it?
Post by: racingmind on January 30, 2007, 10:59:28 pm
I'm with Wesley on this one....
Title: Re: ADAP an entitlement? Should something be asked back for using it?
Post by: Tucsonwoody on January 30, 2007, 11:24:30 pm
Besides ADAP - there are many programs that people use that are not related to HIV.  Some do require that people go to work for assistance I think.   How about people who were born with HIV and others who had no responsibility for having HIV? Or should we be spending money on our citizens (whatever country you live in) first and then try to help others next?

I've thought of this before and still haven't resolved these things in my own mind...I will cogitate on this more.  Thanks to everyone who posted their opinions..you make me exercise my flabby brain.
Title: Re: ADAP an entitlement? Should something be asked back for using it?
Post by: poet on January 31, 2007, 06:39:09 am
'Do Americans Need To Serve?'  The army is at war.  Americans are at Wal-Mart....  I fixed the link to radio open source from which this discussion was pulled.  Before I read the posts to date, the arguments, coming from someone in the military, a father whose son is serving, a Harvard graduate who chose to enlist in the Marines with others posited the questions: should there be a draft; should there be volunteer or compulsory service, military or civil (i.e. Americorps)?  The father admitted that he was orignally shocked by his third son's decision, looking at service as a lesser choice (as opposed to becoming a doctor, a lawyer, something socially upscale like the father) but changed his mind based on the reception he got, as the father, now linked to other parents with sons and daughters in the military.  The Harvard grad., Seth, felt that his peers, who argued against his decision, who now work on Wall Street, seem to wish that they, too, had had that sort of experience behind them as well.  One of the speakers noted that Americans have not paid for this war, that politicians seem afraid of asking Americans to pay, via taxes, via service, via anything, for this war whereas Americans, without politicians, have shown that, given a disaster in the world, Katrina here, they do give and give a lot. 

Ok, that was the starting point for my post.  Then we have entitlement programs which do, in fact, require work/service.  MassHealth which I have requires so many hours of work per week.  Welfare for work, the revision of the program, admittedly from the concept that there is a need to nudge people back to work and off the free cash flow.  But where are the programs, other than disability, for cancer patients, for patients with other diseases who, until they can't (legally proven) do anything, are left out?  We, however, have the Ryan White Act funding/ADAP. 

Still without reading the posts, what if, as part of putting a face on hiv/aids, with a form of activism within this community, those of us who have access to such hiv/aids funding were to, on a voluntary basis, support our a.s.o.'s through work, by helping with the food pantry, delivering meals, answering the phone?  Again, this would not apply to people who do not access such funding, but their take on this is also important.  Do those of you who work, pay taxes, have health insurance you also pay for wonder about those who don't work, perhaps don't pay taxes, have ADAP, could do something, but don't?  Is this the wrong image, another wrong image of people with hiv/aids?  Does this shoot in the foot the yearly effort to keep the funding (as happened with other entitlement programs)?  Does this leave the a.s.o. short staffed for no reason?  Going back to the original draft/volunteer service question, create a nation within the positive community of those who serve and those who don't?  Win
Title: Re: ADAP an entitlement? Should something be asked back for using it?
Post by: Cliff on January 31, 2007, 06:54:06 am
Quote
If someone agrees to accepting drug assistance, should that person be asked, be required to give back in some way, through community service, hiv/aids connected or not?
No!  We don't ask parents to volunteer in schools, while their children are soaking up tax money in the education system.  We don't ask folks to do highway clean-up as a way of giving thanks for highway spending. 

No, it's a service that the government should provide regardless of whether or not the people say thanks or give back buy volunteering.
Title: Re: ADAP an entitlement? Should something be asked back for using it?
Post by: mjmel on January 31, 2007, 06:58:54 am
Excellent response, AustinWesley!
Title: Re: ADAP an entitlement? Should something be asked back for using it?
Post by: poet on January 31, 2007, 07:05:44 am
No, I don't think requiring people to volunteer is the answer. Then it wouldn't exactly be volunteer work. I am public school teacher but I also volunteer, does that make me a better person? No. In fact it is just something that has made me feel better since being diagnosed.

 We all need to do our part. Wether it is adopting a protecting others and ourselves attitude, to avoid new infections or superinfections which are both costly in terms of human and financial terms, or some sort of activism.

But that is just my view.

rob
 

Without meaning to pick on Rob and noting that I have copied only part of his post, IF 'we all need to do our part' how is volunteering, not compulsory, but volunteering not part of activism within the hiv/aids community?  How is it different than not f------g without a condom, protecting others and so, saving dollars?  Rob, you, like my parents, are a teacher.  You would be the first to know that with your education, with your hours, you are in some ways underpaid, no?, compared to the guy on Wall Street, his first year with the investment bank.  But you, presumably, like my parents, got a reward from your choice of work?  If the volunteering which you do do makes you 'feel better' which you can, perhaps, define more for us, would this be asking too much of us, of those of us who get something to contribute something back of our choice?  

Yes, from another post, we pay taxes, but voting alone can try to direct those tax dollars.  If we volunteer our time to an a.s.o. which is underfunded by tax dollars, are we not strengthening it?  Are we not putting our non-tax, non-dollars time and investing it to make a point, a point about the importance we find there?  Would we be doing this out of guilt?  How so?  Win
Title: Re: ADAP an entitlement? Should something be asked back for using it?
Post by: Lisa on January 31, 2007, 07:06:09 am
I find this to be a circular discussion, as it is the people who depend on ADAP that are least able to do anything to "pay back" the system.
Title: Re: ADAP an entitlement? Should something be asked back for using it?
Post by: poet on January 31, 2007, 07:10:53 am
No!  We don't ask parents to volunteer in schools, while their children are soaking up tax money in the education system.  We don't ask folks to do highway clean-up as a way of giving thanks for highway spending. 

No, it's a service that the government should provide regardless of whether or not the people say thanks or give back buy volunteering.


But Cliff, much as we don't 'ask' parents to volunteer in schools, we need parents to do so (again as the son of parents who volunteered).  It supports the schools.  It brings attention to the schools.  Ditto highway clean-ups.  We don't ask people to do it, but we need them to do it.  And make a point of the signs which say 'this stretch of the highway has been adopted by ____ ____' which points out the need and recognises those who have volunteered.  Or hospitals which rely on volunteers.  So if, given the opportunity to focus our time, the opportunity to 'give back,' would we not want it to go back to the hiv/aids community somehow or, at least, to be recognised as coming from that community, our community? Win
Title: Re: ADAP an entitlement? Should something be asked back for using it?
Post by: bocker3 on January 31, 2007, 07:44:52 am
Do I think anyone should be compelled to volunteer??  Absolutely not!  Do I think people should be willing to volunteer, if able -- absolutely.
The problem with the entitlement attitude is that it is NOT supported by government policy.  These programs exist because it is politically expedient.  In the US, the government is not obligated to provide medical care -- whether it SHOULD is another question entirely (I think the answer is yes -- but we have to be careful for what we wish for), the Constitution does not guarantee that.  When people say that they are "owed" something from the government, they are really saying they are "owed" something from the US population.  Every entitlement program is a form of welfare.  Now -- let me be clear -- I am bring up these points for discussion.  I believe that SOCIETY has an obligation to help out people in need, if that is done through the government, fine!  So I am not against ADAP, I don't think anyone who gets meds through this program should be forced to do anything -- volunteer, feel guilty, etc.  However, I'm reading responses that seem so vehemently opposed against the idea of volunteering, that I'm unclear how to read them.  Volunteering is not compulsory.
I understand the whole idea of "I've paid my taxes and I am owed this.", but that is a dangerous argument.  Even people with insurance and resources pay taxes -- shouldn't they be entitled to these programs too?  I think the answer is No -- because it has to be needs based.  If it's needs based, then no one is "entitled" they are simply "qualified".
When I was first diagnosed, I received counseling from a Free Clinic.  I felt very guilty about taking free care when I had insurance and resources to pay.  The therapist told me that he was there to support the newly diagnosed and that I was perfectly right for being there.  Although, he could not accept payment for his services, the clinic could accept donations -- so that is what I did.

Anyway -- ADAP exists and should be used by those who need it -- without guilt, without stigma and without compulsory service.  However, if someone is receiving it and can volunteer -- what's the harm??

Mike
Title: Re: ADAP an entitlement? Should something be asked back for using it?
Post by: fondeveau on January 31, 2007, 07:52:32 am
I find this to be a circular discussion, as it is the people who depend on ADAP that are least able to do anything to "pay back" the system.

 

To the Least of These - Matthew 25:33-40   

The Son of Man will put the sheep (good people) on his right and the goats (bad people) on his left. "Then the king will say to those good people on his right, 'Come. My Father has given you great blessings. Come and get the kingdom God promised you. That kingdom has been prepared for you since the world was made. You can have this kingdom, because I was hungry and you gave me food to eat. I was thirsty, and you gave me something to drink. I was alone and away from home, and you invited me into your home. I was without clothes, and you gave me something to wear. I was sick, and you cared for me. I was in prison, and you came to visit me.' "Then the good people will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and give you food? When did we see you thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you alone and away from home and invite you into our home? When did we see you without clothes and give you something to wear? When did we see you sick or in prison and care for you?' "Then the king will answer, 'I tell you the truth. Anything you did for any of my people here, you also did for me.' "Then the king will say to those bad people on his left, 'Go away from me. God has already decided that you will be punished. Go into the fire that burns forever. That fire was prepared for the devil and his angels. You must go away, because I was hungry, and you gave me nothing to eat. I was thirsty, and you gave me nothing to drink. I was alone and away from home, and you did not invite me into your home. I was without clothes, and you gave me nothing to wear. I was sick and in prison, and you did not care for me.' "Then those people will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty? When did we see you alone and away from home? Or when did we see you without clothes or sick or in prison? When did we see these things and not help you?' "Then the king will answer, 'I tell you the truth. Anything you refused to do for any of my people here, you refused to do for me.'"Then those bad people will go away. They will have punishment forever. But the good people will go and have life forever."

— Matthew 25:33-46

We could add, I was HIV+ and you gave me Atripla....It does amaze how conservative Republicans who often claim the moral high ground based on Christian faith are often in the vanguard of those voices who either wish to cut or eliminate funding for ADAP.  Of course, to really sell the program they have to choose an innocent such as Ryan White for the poster child, rather than say, Gaetan Dugas?  But, back to the thread..."compulsory" volunteerism is called slavery. 
Title: Re: ADAP an entitlement? Should something be asked back for using it?
Post by: Cliff on January 31, 2007, 08:33:32 am
Yes, from another post, we pay taxes, but voting alone can try to direct those tax dollars.  If we volunteer our time to an a.s.o. which is underfunded by tax dollars, are we not strengthening it?  Are we not putting our non-tax, non-dollars time and investing it to make a point, a point about the importance we find there?  Would we be doing this out of guilt?  How so?  Win
I don't see how receiving other types of services from the government is any different.  Everything the government does is underfunded.  HIV care is not unique to that problem.  We obviously could throw more money at education, mass transportation systems, poverty reduction, etc...  And having parents and community leaders (business or otherwise) volunteer their time could strengthen those areas.

Yes, it's a good thing if someone volunteers (that goes without saying and that's just not specific to HIV Inc.).  BUT there should be NO expectation or obligation, simply because someone receives government assistance.  That's not fair to them.  Just because I have not receive governmental assistance, doesn't mean I'm am less responsible for giving back than someone who does.
Title: Re: ADAP an entitlement? Should something be asked back for using it?
Post by: koi1 on January 31, 2007, 08:55:09 am
I think the point was compulsory volunteerism for using certain services. So I am still going to say that compulsory volunteering by definition is not volunteering. It it like likening it to the forced to do community hours mentality.
The people that got HIV are not criminals that need to do time in a soup kitchen.

Again forcing someone to volunteer defeats the purpose. If one volunteers it is because one feels it. And yes you could say that more people should be feeling it, but there are other ways to accomplishing this than by making it compulsory. I got into the volunteering with an ad on a website for an aso. My other volunteer work is giving time to afterschool programs at my school. In other words my volunteerism has been meaningful to me.

Should they force cancer patients whoget services at county hospitals and are able to to do volunteer to do so? After all they are using tax dollars. I think the reasoning behind forcing people who use ADAP to volunteer is just because of the stigma still attached to this disease. That is you got it. It is your fault. You deserve it. So why should I pay for your treatment? This is still tied to a moralistic, discriminatory, homophobic, right wing mentality.

Should people want to volunteer? In an ideal worl dyes. But we have never lived in an ideal world. Again getting people to volunteer is either innate or should be done through campaigns to get people to act.
And it is important to in at least securing adequate funding for those who depend on ADAP and other ASO's.

rob
Title: Re: ADAP an entitlement? Should something be asked back for using it?
Post by: skeebo1969 on January 31, 2007, 09:07:47 am
But Cliff, much as we don't 'ask' parents to volunteer in schools, we need parents to do so (again as the son of parents who volunteered).  It supports the schools.  It brings attention to the schools.   

  Win,

     I first want to point out that your generation is different that Cliff's and my generation.  It was my generation and a majority of this one that  had/have households that are comprised of parents who both worked to support their families.  That is of course if both parents were present as I am assuming both yours were.  Speaking of those fortunate to have both parents involved they were generally in 9-5 jobs which left very little time for family, let alone volunteering at their child's school.  Sorry Cliff, don't mean to assume both your parents worked , but for the most part this is how our generation was raised.  Economics, Win, necessitated it in mine.

I find this to be a circular discussion, as it is the people who depend on ADAP that are least able to do anything to "pay back" the system.

  Win, if you read some of Lisa's blogs I think you will get a better understanding of what she is saying.  I think this might speak for a majority of those on ADAP by the way.

Or hospitals which rely on volunteers.   

  Win, have you seen the age of most of those sexy little candy stripers as of late.  A majority of them are retirees.   Retirees have pretty much always comprised a large part of the volunteering effort.  Why?  Because they have the time.

  So if, given the opportunity to focus our time, the opportunity to 'give back,' would we not want it to go back to the hiv/aids community somehow or, at least, to be recognised as coming from that community, our community? Win

   I think many of us do!  We just don't plaster our efforts on the boards.   Read Moffie's blogs and this may give you an idea of how some here put forth the effort when they have the "opportunity" to "give back".

   Also, Win, have you seen the latest cell phone commercials?  Where they say a portion of proceeds go to Africa to help those with AIDS?  You are a much better writer than I.  Why not write to them telling them of the people here on waiting lists for ADAP.  People like the mother and son Dachsund/Hal referred to in two other threads.   I think this will be time better spent than asking us or writing in your local paper.  Just my two cents.

  Regards,

  Thomas
Title: Re: ADAP an entitlement? Should something be asked back for using it?
Post by: marc11864 on January 31, 2007, 09:15:24 am
Very well said , Rob!  :)

I'd say more, but my other meds (Read coffee) haven't kicked in yet.  ;)
Title: Re: ADAP an entitlement? Should something be asked back for using it?
Post by: poet on January 31, 2007, 10:19:13 am
Ok, we hope to hear more from Marc. :) 

To Thomas, as I am sure you know, when your father is a teacher in the public schools as mine was, your mother was also working, in my case sometimes nursery school, sometimes as a teacher's assistant, sometimes tutoring because, as you point out, you can't make it (in the 1950's-1970's) on one pay check as a teacher. 

I have p.m.'s Lisa to get a sense of where her argument has been because I am unclear why 'the people on ADAP are the least able to do anything to "pay back" the system.  Let me be clear that I am not personally arguing for or against 'paying back.'  I am wondering outloud here whether volunteering for an a.s.o. or other community need when you physically can and when you are receiving some assistance via ADAP or other program isn't a way of strengthening those support organisations, demonstrating a point to those who might need to see one, that if you (Americans) help those of us with hiv/aids in one way, we will be able to do something in return for the benefit of others.

Time, yes, a good point.  Time is a reason for why certain clients from our a.s.o. can show up for board meetings which occur during the day.  They either aren't working or are on seasonal hiatus here on the Cape.  So they offer help during the off-season. 

Finally, my point in this thread is not to pull out what people may or may not be doing, but to deal with the much more abstract question: should (knocking out compulsory) volunteering be encouraged (think activism)? 

Which goes back to Rob: 'Should people want to volunteer?'  Yes, my a.s.o. lists opportunities, but that's as far as it goes.  Do we need more focus on what 'you' get back, how important it is to the health of an a.s.o. to have volunteers.  How it could help those who post here that they feel all alone, are depressed, are disconnected from others?  Try it.  You might just like it. 

And back to Mike: 'What is the harm?'  Or does this rub some the wrong way by seeming that someone should be doing something in return?  Win



Title: Re: ADAP an entitlement? Should something be asked back for using it?
Post by: Lisa on January 31, 2007, 10:32:56 am
I agree Win, we have allowed ourselves to become complacent. The current generation has come up in a more instant gratification kind of way, and unfortunately it is of our own doing. ....My own doing. I did instill a strong sense of work ethic into my kids, hell, I raised three on my own, on a nurses salary.(and a minimal one at that, this being the south, and the wages are notoriously crappy) But everything is hurry, hurry, hurry, gimmee, gimmee, gimmee.
My own life hs been a train wreck, ask anybody here. But I am finally in a mindset that it has come time to help blaze a way for those who will follow me/us.
I'll be spending the next year and maybe a half on a project that is still making me want to make water in my panties. (See the Activism Forum)
Title: Re: ADAP an entitlement? Should something be asked back for using it?
Post by: skeebo1969 on January 31, 2007, 10:36:44 am
 Win,

     Your title suggests a debateable topic indeed.  I won't speak for those who are on disability and do not have the energy to volunteer.  Also remember that not all those on ADAP are getting their meds absolutely free.  Some do work and while the taxes are drawn from their paychecks they additionally have to pay an amount according to ADAP guidelines.

      I just felt in post #17 you were bringing up some points that I needed to address.  Like I said earlier, I do think many here give back.   I also have to agree with those here that ask,"Why should I be asked to?".

     By the way Win, I for one like the topic.  I think it is one that raises the awareness in all of us.  

     (((hugs)))

    Thomas
Title: Re: ADAP an entitlement? Should something be asked back for using it?
Post by: bear60 on January 31, 2007, 10:46:59 am
Win
Are you old enough to remember the military draft.  I grew up knowing that at age 18 I had to register with the draft board. If I went to college I would get a deferment.
Much to my suprise, when I was in my 5th year at college ( long story...I tranferred schools) I was drafted.  That was 1966.  And let me tell you it was not a good time to be drafted.  I appealed the draft board decision and my father bless his heart went to bat for me and testified that he "wanted his son to finish college."  They allowed me to finish college.  I immediately applied to the Peace Corps and was accepted and sent to Peru after I graduated.  When I returned from the 2 years in the Peace Corps I got a job teaching school. So that I would get another deferment from the draft board. Finally I just was too old to qualify for the draft.

I am not telling my life story here.  I am illustrating that when the government REQUIRES its citizens to do something,  try as they will, it never is equal in the carrying out of the law.
 I was able to get deferrments whereas many thousands were NOT able to and were killed in that damn war. 
Dont get me started on survivor guilt...first it was Vietnam and now its HIV.
Modified to add:  That draft board is responsible for changing my life for the worse and for killing thousands of people.  The members of the draft board  were good citizens.  Pillars of the community. They were efficiently doing what the government asked them to do.  But at what cost to the kids it ruined.  I think government interference in this or any other area is not necessary.
I can just see Kurt, trying to pick up trash along the highway on his crutches because it was his day to do so.



Title: Re: ADAP an entitlement? Should something be asked back for using it?
Post by: Joe K on January 31, 2007, 11:14:19 am
For the majority of people who use ADAP their poor health all but prevents most of them, from volunteering for much of anything.  Add to that that many on these programs are living in poverty and have few if any resources (like a car) to be able to offer much assistance, even those who really want to help.  I find the whole idea of forced service, in return for medical treatment to be beyond the absurd.  Just think of the turmoil that would ensue if ADAP recipients were required to perform forced service.  Who would decide if you were well enough to work?  What about when you get really "sick"?  The whole idea is foolish and to me, anyone who thinks that such service should be mandatory, needs to become educated on what being poz means.

This still leaves the issue of volunteerism on the table and the real concern should center on how do we get more people to become involved in a cause?  Most of our ASO are in shambles due to drastic budget cuts, poor management and public apathy.  We had an advocacy group here that folded two years ago, because nobody thought we needed to advocate for pozzies.  However, since the Ryan White funds keep shrinking, now everybody is screaming that "we need someone to speak on our behalf."  Too bad they were so shortsighted that they allowed that "someone" to fold.

One of our ASOs recently closed and tossed about 3,000 clients out and left them scrambling to find new services.  But our other ASOs were of limited help, because they are beyond capacity with their clients.  At this point it is even unclear if more volunteers would make any difference, because the real issues deal with cold hard cash.  We seem to have volunteers for limited duties, but very few step forward to work on the "soft issues" involving funding and the politics of HIV.

All of this leads to the indisputable fact that you cannot "force" volunteerism from anyone, because it requires  desire and dedication that can only come from the heart.  The needs of our community have been known for decades and the lack of volunteers has many reasons, not the least is that many people feel absolutely no obligation to ever do anything for their fellow human.
Title: Re: ADAP an entitlement? Should something be asked back for using it?
Post by: poet on January 31, 2007, 11:23:03 am
Win
Are you old enough to remember the military draft.  I grew up knowing that at age 18 I had to register with the draft board. If I went to college I would get a deferment.
Much to my suprise, when I was in my 5th year at college ( long story...I tranferred schools) I was drafted.  That was 1966.  And let me tell you it was not a good time to be drafted.  I appealed the draft board decision and my father bless his heart went to bat for me and testified that he "wanted his son to finish college."  They allowed me to finish college.  I immediately applied to the Peace Corps and was accepted and sent to Peru after I graduated.  When I returned from the 2 years in the Peace Corps I got a job teaching school. So that I would get another deferment from the draft board. Finally I just was too old to qualify for the draft.

I am not telling my life story here.  I am illustrating that when the government REQUIRES its citizens to do something.  Try as they will, it never is equal in the carrying out of the law.
 I was able to get deferrments whereas many thousands were NOT able to and were killed in that damn war. 
Dont get me started on survivor guilt...first it was Vietnam and now its HIV.
Modified to add:  That draft board is responsible for changing my life for the worse and for killing thousands of people.  The members of the draft board  were good citizens.  Pillars of the community. They were efficiently dong what the government asked them to do.  But at what cost to the kids it ruined.  I think government interference in this or any other area is not necessary.
I can just see Kurt, trying to pick up trash along the highway on his crutches because it was his day to do so.






Thanks for bringing us back to where the thread started, Bear.  ALL the speakers last night, the army veteran, the father with his son in the Marines, the active Marine himself made clear that no draft except perhaps the one for WWII was what it should have been, that any number were not chosen, that it fails to bring out the best and the brightest.  I think they agreed that some sort of return to country, military or civil service, might make sense, might bring the members of the country back to its core values and that offering something, i.e. free college tuition per year of such service might help in another way, making education available to more people.  I edged around the draft, turning 18 in April of 1973.

Moving back to where things here started, I don't want to lose the concept of volunteerism being a means of changing the face of hiv/aids.  Were those physically able to do so going out 'there' in the community as a group of volunteers, perhaps sponsored by an a.s.o., whether it was planting bulbs in a public park or painting a classroom, known, first, as only an anonymous group of volunteers but then, if agreed to, known as a group with hiv/aids, this would be a form of activism which hits those who only know of the groups who demonstrate (and rightly so) as 'the faces.'  Yes, I am shifting things a bit here to say that anytime we, as a group, are out there it helps those who are trying to get ADAP in their state, to keep the funding in place because suddenly the value of such a group is evident to those who would otherwise think of people with hiv/aids as degenerates, of people you would never want to see or know.  So, the question might also be, are we missing an opportunity by not encouraging volunteering.

This is not that far afield from what we do with the mentally challenged.  Rather than keeping them inside behind closed doors, we are encouraged to bring them out, take them out, take them to a movie, to a restaurant.  Not that everyone would want to see them.  But to understand the mentally challenged, you do have to see them.  By bringing them into the wider community, we make the community wider: we broaden the minds of the community.  

I also bring in the mentally challenged because what 'they' can do is not necessarily what others might think of.  So to enable them, we have to rethink what we mean by employment, jobs, work.  But it can be done, as shown by my organisation.  So, to support the concerns addressed here, are we perhaps missing opportunities for volunteering by not attempting to redefine what we mean by them?  Are we sending the wrong message to someone who feels overwhelmed and abandoned that there is 'nothing that they can do,' whereas there just might be, if we thought about redefining what we meant.  Working through this thread we can see a recognision that doing something has a tremendous value to one's wellbeing, to one's feeling whole.  Win
Title: Re: ADAP an entitlement? Should something be asked back for using it?
Post by: bear60 on January 31, 2007, 11:57:33 am
I also bring in the mentally challenged because what 'they' can do is not necessarily what others might think of.  So to enable them, we have to rethink what we mean by employment, jobs, work.  But it can be done, as shown by my organisation.  So, to support the concerns addressed here, are we perhaps missing opportunities for volunteering by not attempting to redefine what we mean by them?  Are we sending the wrong message to someone who feels overwhelmed and abandoned that there is 'nothing that they can do,' whereas there just might be, if we thought about redefining what we meant.  Working through this thread we can see a recognision that doing something has a tremendous value to one's wellbeing, to one's feeling whole.  Win
.......................................................................................
It occurs to me that (some) ASO's have social workers attached to their program.  If the people on ADAP had EQUAL...and I mean that EQUAL....access to social wokers who could assess their needs and direct them to volunteer work or to  something of their choice maybe just maybe this would be a good thing.  But Win, get real, there is no EQUAL...each state, each municipality is different and money is tight.
My partner Kurt was given an intake interview and had follow ups with his case manager....he basically told them he didnt need the services of a case manager.  He would not have volunteered for anything because he has problems with neuropathy and being on his feet for even a few hours is enough.
When we have the AIDS Walk here... and someone asks why Kurt or I aren't going....our response is that this is for the neggies out there to experience a feelgood feeling by volunteering and raising money.  I have participated in the walk....... Kurt cannot.  Its people like Kurt  that the WALK is supposed to benefit. He wont go and he wont sit in a wheelchair.
Its not the HIV positive people who are poor and sick that need to volunteer.....its those wealthy society folks who think volunteering means putting on a ball gown and attending a fundraiser for the Art Museum.  But I understand that DOING SOMETHING is often a good thing.  Well fine, if thats what the individual pozzie wants.
Title: Re: ADAP an entitlement? Should something be asked back for using it?
Post by: Miss Philicia on January 31, 2007, 12:02:40 pm
otherwise this ain't nothing more than indentured servitude
Title: Re: ADAP an entitlement? Should something be asked back for using it?
Post by: AustinWesley on January 31, 2007, 01:55:33 pm
Win
Are you old enough to remember the military draft.  I grew up knowing that at age 18 I had to register with the draft board. If I went to college I would get a deferment.
Much to my suprise, when I was in my 5th year at college ( long story...I tranferred schools) I was drafted.  That was 1966.  And let me tell you it was not a good time to be drafted.  I appealed the draft board decision and my father bless his heart went to bat for me and testified that he "wanted his son to finish college."  They allowed me to finish college.  I immediately applied to the Peace Corps and was accepted and sent to Peru after I graduated.  When I returned from the 2 years in the Peace Corps I got a job teaching school. So that I would get another deferment from the draft board. Finally I just was too old to qualify for the draft.

I am not telling my life story here.  I am illustrating that when the government REQUIRES its citizens to do something.  Try as they will, it never is equal in the carrying out of the law.
 I was able to get deferrments whereas many thousands were NOT able to and were killed in that damn war. 
Dont get me started on survivor guilt...first it was Vietnam and now its HIV.
Modified to add:  That draft board is responsible for changing my life for the worse and for killing thousands of people.  The members of the draft board  were good citizens.  Pillars of the community. They were efficiently dong what the government asked them to do.  But at what cost to the kids it ruined.  I think government interference in this or any other area is not necessary.
I can just see Kurt, trying to pick up trash along the highway on his crutches because it was his day to do so.






Hey Bear,

What a great analogy.   I agree with everyone here that compulsary volunteerism is a contradiction in terms and akin to slavery.    I had to laugh at the mental picture in my head of someone on crutches picking up trash along the highway. ; )   Oh, too funny!

Why we are on the topic of the criminalization of HIV+ people, what about the actual criminals in jail?   How bout offering them some incentive for joining the armed forces in exchange for reduced jail time?   What's the average cost of keeping someone in prison for non violent offenders?    Something like 30K a year or more.   The US has more people in prison than any other country in the world.    How many are in for ridiculous drug charges that will end up being career criminals?

Hell, if I go out and commit the right crime I will then be entitled to Free room and board and Free HIV Drugs and medical care.   So, if I am to be demonized for becoming HIV+ and made to feel guilty if I am sucking the system dry to save my life, Hell  I guess I might as well do it up good and rob a 7 Eleven at gunpoint!

Then I could sit peacefully in jail, and still be able to post classified ads for a partner cause the Supreme Court ruled that's a right I should have!

Come on people, let's fuel this fire with a little common sense. ; )   Just some of my own random thoughts ; )

Wesley
Title: Re: ADAP an entitlement? Should something be asked back for using it?
Post by: poet on January 31, 2007, 03:16:08 pm
Wesley, I wasn't aware that we were on the topic of the criminalisation of hiv positive people and I hope that I have not suggested it in any way. I also haven't attached the word guilt in connection with receiving assistance because there should be none.  Someone qualified to do so established the conditions under which someone would be able to apply for and receive benefits.  But, clearly, some still sit with guilt which we have discussed in the forums.  Sitting with it rarely gets at the cause or lifts it from them. 

I agree with you, Bear, that money is tight with almost every a.s.o.  But that is why we had both G.M.H.C. in NYC (through which healthy people told 'sick' people what to do) and P.W.A.C. where people with hiv/aids discovered self-empowerment.  If the a.s.o. is short-staffed, that's where volunteers from the hiv/aids community come in.  We are the ones who are on the advisory board for a reason and one of those reasons is to suggest gaps, opportunities.  I honestly can't think of one situation in which an a.s.o. thought of contributing to its community.  Understandably, Kurt is not going to participate in a walk or in something which requires him to stand, which is why I commented earlier that, as with the mentally challenged community I work with, perhaps we need to rethink what volunteering means in actions?  Perhaps we need to create not only AIDS walks but other actions of fundraising, awareness and self-empowerment? Perhaps Kurt's is the voice we need to hear from on this, not that yours isn't valued, the voice of someone who might just say, 'yes, figure out how to work around my limitations and I would want to think about it.'

You and others also probably know the reality of fundraising.  It's the fancy dress balls which attract those with the largest incomes which, in theory, net out the largest payoffs of charities.  In theory because we all remember the scandal of the AIDS Rides and how much of the gross receipts were needed to cover 'costs' which is the curse of any benefit by any organisation.  I have always felt that an event must cater to every income level.  A night of a thousand dinners at every possible price level so that Mr. and Mrs. W.F. Buckley as well as John and Mary can participate IF they so choose to.  And so it should never be the 'need' to volunteer, to contribute, to circle back to the thread, but the desire to do something and the means to fulfill that desire and feel that you have, in your own way, of your own will, contributed by volunteering. 

Yes, it's inescapable in the Commonwealth, the 'ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country.' Here, I am asking in 2007, what can those of us with hiv/aids do for ourselves as well as for our communities as actions of self-empowerment.  Win

Title: Re: ADAP an entitlement? Should something be asked back for using it?
Post by: AustinWesley on January 31, 2007, 04:50:41 pm
Wesley, I wasn't aware that we were on the topic of the criminalisation of hiv positive people and I hope that I have not suggested it in any way. I also haven't attached the word guilt in connection with receiving assistance because there should be none.  Someone qualified to do so established the conditions under which someone would be able to apply for and receive benefits.  But, clearly, some still sit with guilt which we have discussed in the forums.  Sitting with it rarely gets at the cause or lifts it from them. 

I agree with you, Bear, that money is tight with almost every a.s.o.  But that is why we had both G.M.H.C. in NYC (through which healthy people told 'sick' people what to do) and P.W.A.C. where people with hiv/aids discovered self-empowerment.  If the a.s.o. is short-staffed, that's where volunteers from the hiv/aids community come in.  We are the ones who are on the advisory board for a reason and one of those reasons is to suggest gaps, opportunities.  I honestly can't think of one situation in which an a.s.o. thought of contributing to its community.  Understandably, Kurt is not going to participate in a walk or in something which requires him to stand, which is why I commented earlier that, as with the mentally challenged community I work with, perhaps we need to rethink what volunteering means in actions?  Perhaps we need to create not only AIDS walks but other actions of fundraising, awareness and self-empowerment? Perhaps Kurt's is the voice we need to hear from on this, not that yours isn't valued, the voice of someone who might just say, 'yes, figure out how to work around my limitations and I would want to think about it.'

You and others also probably know the reality of fundraising.  It's the fancy dress balls which attract those with the largest incomes which, in theory, net out the largest payoffs of charities.  In theory because we all remember the scandal of the AIDS Rides and how much of the gross receipts were needed to cover 'costs' which is the curse of any benefit by any organisation.  I have always felt that an event must cater to every income level.  A night of a thousand dinners at every possible price level so that Mr. and Mrs. W.F. Buckley as well as John and Mary can participate IF they so choose to.  And so it should never be the 'need' to volunteer, to contribute, to circle back to the thread, but the desire to do something and the means to fulfill that desire and feel that you have, in your own way, of your own will, contributed by volunteering. 

Yes, it's inescapable in the Commonwealth, the 'ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country.' Here, I am asking in 2007, what can those of us with hiv/aids do for ourselves as well as for our communities as actions of self-empowerment.  Win



Hey Win,

That's true.  I got a little off topic, but I wanted to make a point.   Nobody seems to question what convicts can do for the community while they are incarcerated recieving all this medical treatment at our expense.   Perhaps we need to look at pulling resources out of jails and prioritizing the health and safety of those who haven't commited a crime first?   In that respect, I feel there is a correlation and relevance.   Why are convicts placed as more important by societies standards and how come we are allowing that?  What kind of message does that send to people with HIV or AIDS?

Another person posted that not all of us here boast about what we've done in the way of volunteering or contributing.   Amen to that.  It seemed as though people were getting frustrated (myself included) with the train of thought that people should be required to "pay back" or do this or that.  Not suggesting you are pushing one way or another!

I understand your point.   There is a sense of empowerment that comes from volunteering or contributing back in some way which can be very rewarding regardless of one's situation or means.   I think just letting people know what's needed is the first step.   

Forcing it on them was what I wanted to make crystal clear is not going to work.   Additonally, I don't think I used the word properly when I used criminalization.   I should have said guilting and shaming people isn't an acceptable or appropriate approach to encouraging people to give back.

Additionally, I think volunteer work especially for those newly diagnosed can be an excellent means of coping and restoring their self worth etc.   It's an excellent way to meet supportive friends etc.   The list goes on and on with the rewards that people can gain from volunteering who also happen to be positive.   

That said, I now have read some other things you've brought up that have my interest.   The scandals with some of the AIDS organizations.  Don't get me started on that.   And the pretentious players in the Activism scene throwing lavish parties and creating frivolous litigation.   Power corrupts ;)   Many people are apathetic because of things like that and I see some excellent and creative ideas your bringing into play in the next post. 

I'm not arguing with you.  I'm glad you are bringing up these ideas and getting people to think and hopefully brainstorm to find some inovative ways to help improve the current situation.

Wesley

Title: Re: ADAP an entitlement? Should something be asked back for using it?
Post by: aupointillimite on January 31, 2007, 04:59:11 pm
I also haven't attached the word guilt in connection with receiving assistance because there should be none. 

I think, given the state of American culture... with the heavy emphais on "hard work" and "prosperity being a sign of God's favor" (inheritances from the New England Puritans which have seeped into our national consciousness), that it's already hard for Americans to accept public assistance without feeling some residual guilt. 

Seriously, the message that we always hear essentially boils down to, "being poor is bad and undesireable" which means we look at poor people and make a subconcious connection that they are bad and undesirable.  Welfare receipients barely rank above the homeless on the American social ladder... there's already a whole bunch of guilt there... and there will be guilt simply because this is taking place within the context of American society.

And Win, I know that you are absolutely not trying to make anyone feel guilty... but I think since American society already makes people on the dole feel bad for it... that asking them to "do more" is paramount to having an emotional stranglehold on these people. 
Title: Re: ADAP an entitlement? Should something be asked back for using it?
Post by: fondeveau on January 31, 2007, 05:39:35 pm
When I was first diagnosed, a state caseworker called me and wanted to set up all an appointment to offer me a variety of services.  I refused and pointed out that I was fortunate to have an income, insurance, and my own physician.  And, indeed, I am fortunate and must admit to recent attendance at a black-tie affair and auction for the benefit of the local ASO.  I had a nice dinner, met very nice people, and ended up donating more than $1k to the ASO.  If I learned that the ASO required "volunteer" service from the people it served, I would stop donating, even where the ASO thought that volunteers would provide good public relations for the cause.  I gave the money freely so that the ASO could freely give to those who it serves and I expect that it will be given freely without any recompense whatsoever.

Currently, I am disturbed at the Red Cross which is involved in surplus food distributions.  The Red Cross solicits sponsorship of $1000.00.  For that $1000.00, the Red Cross organizes a food distribution where $5000.00 "worth" of food is distributed.  Volunteers unload a semi-truck and pass the food out to any who arrive seeking help.  This all seemed wonderful until I looked at the food which was being distributed. 

Its not that quantity buying power or a secret source has aided in the purchase of this food.  Rather, it appears that grocery stores and food distributors have found a way to simultaneously get a tax write-off and save money on their garbage bill by sending $5000.00 "worth" of what would otherwise be dumped in the landfill for distribution to the needy.  I am not quite sure of this, but am under the impression that the Red Cross lends their name and reputation to the enterprise and keeps the $1000.00. It all reminds me of the Seinfeld episode where Elaine was selling muffin tops and donating the muffin stumps to the homeless shelter.  She expected thanks, but instead was treated to a diatribe that even the homeless like the muffin tops and what was she thinking, that somehow homeless people were desperate enough to eat the stumps that her customers disdained?

The point that I'm trying to make is that while a goal may seem desirable and laudable (increasing volunteerism, raising public awareness, etc.) - the ends do not justify the means.  For example, I might have a sincere desire to donate $50,000.00 to my local ASO.  But, I could not obtain the money by robbing my local bank.

Unless, perhaps, I was a member of ACT-UP - I think they did take the position that desperate times required desperate measures and therefore, found justification thereby.


Title: Re: ADAP an entitlement? Should something be asked back for using it?
Post by: dixieman on January 31, 2007, 05:50:30 pm
hmmm ... I think everyone has brought up some interesting points... our government spends 72 billion on Americans a year for health-care while spending 4 trillion dollars overseas... I question this? I think we should provide healthcare to each and everyone in this country... take care of our own first and if we have funds available support and help out other countries who need assistance... also one point made on inmates... do you want to have hiv and be incarcerated? believe me the care is minimal...if not inadequate.
Title: Re: ADAP an entitlement? Should something be asked back for using it?
Post by: David_CA on January 31, 2007, 06:03:35 pm
In a way, I think there is someting to be said for giving something back, whether it be for food stamps, welfare, or ADAP.  I'm certainly not saying that everybody (including my husband) should have to work a second 'job' to get meds.  It could be answering phones at an AIDS hotline a couple of hours a month, assisting in some sort of prevention education / awareness programs, assisting at an end-stage AIDS Hospice type of facility, something, anything. 

I realize some pay taxes and think that since they don't drive, they should pay less.  They do; they don't buy gasoline or diesel (at least in NC).  The more gas I use, the more road taxes I pay.  I don't have kids in school, but I don't pay less in taxes because of it; I'd rather some of my tax money go to fund schools so that at least some kids are getting some sort of education (or have the opportunity to) than reduce the available funding because I don't have kids. 

What's so wrong with requiring something, within reason, in return for any social services?  I am fortunate to work, so my income isn't free.  Insurance is part of my job's benefits, but I still work for those benefits.  I still pay co-pays and deductibles.

I'm not saying that everybody on any sort of govt. subsidy should automatically have to volunteer 20 hours per week in addition to raising kids and working a full-time minimum wage job while dealing with poor health.  I KNOW that there are some of us that could do something, even if it's helping with prevention, that also benefits us; it keeps HIV in the mainstream and hopefully a few people negative to there will be less dilution of current funds. 

From the posts I've read above, I think I'm one of the few who's said anything even somewhat supporting 'giving back'.  I know I take a lot for granted, and I'm definitely not the only one.  I guess what I'm saying is that it wouldn't hurt many of us to give something somehow. 

I think Lis said it best:
Quote
I dont qualify for ADAP... i wish i did... I would do anything!!!


David
Title: Re: ADAP an entitlement? Should something be asked back for using it?
Post by: fondeveau on January 31, 2007, 06:18:45 pm
The point of social safety net programs is to help those who cannot help themselves.  It sounds generous in many ways, but there is a selfish side to it as well.  The overall social cost of helping the needy in time of crisis is less than helping them in time of extreme unction.  A stitch in time does save nine.  Therefore, there is no need for repayment.  Imagine someone without access to medical care who then progresses to full-blown AIDS and is subsequently hospitalized in intensive care for a month.  They will quickly use up more resources during that month than resources used had HAART and other assistance been provided from diagnosis.
Title: Re: ADAP an entitlement? Should something be asked back for using it?
Post by: aupointillimite on January 31, 2007, 06:19:13 pm
In a way, I think there is someting to be said for giving something back, whether it be for food stamps, welfare, or ADAP.  I'm certainly not saying that everybody (including my husband) should have to work a second 'job' to get meds.  It could be answering phones at an AIDS hotline a couple of hours a month, assisting in some sort of prevention education / awareness programs, assisting at an end-stage AIDS Hospice type of facility, something, anything. 

I realize some pay taxes and think that since they don't drive, they should pay less.  They do; they don't buy gasoline or diesel (at least in NC).  The more gas I use, the more road taxes I pay.  I don't have kids in school, but I don't pay less in taxes because of it; I'd rather some of my tax money go to fund schools so that at least some kids are getting some sort of education (or have the opportunity to) than reduce the available funding because I don't have kids. 

What's so wrong with requiring something, within reason, in return for any social services?  I am fortunate to work, so my income isn't free.  Insurance is part of my job's benefits, but I still work for those benefits.  I still pay co-pays and deductibles.

I'm not saying that everybody on any sort of govt. subsidy should automatically have to volunteer 20 hours per week in addition to raising kids and working a full-time minimum wage job while dealing with poor health.  I KNOW that there are some of us that could do something, even if it's helping with prevention, that also benefits us; it keeps HIV in the mainstream and hopefully a few people negative to there will be less dilution of current funds. 

From the posts I've read above, I think I'm one of the few who's said anything even somewhat supporting 'giving back'.  I know I take a lot for granted, and I'm definitely not the only one.  I guess what I'm saying is that it wouldn't hurt many of us to give something somehow. 

I think Lis said it best:

David


I understand what you're saying, David.  I really do.

But then what's to stop the government from requiring us to "give back" something for freedom of speech?  I'm not trying to make your point absurd, but I am always inherently uncomfortable when the government forces citizens to "sacrifice" something.  It's not "service" when it's done under compulsion... it's more akin to slavery. 
Title: Re: ADAP an entitlement? Should something be asked back for using it?
Post by: fondeveau on January 31, 2007, 06:27:24 pm
You could also look at it this way:  We the People provide ADAP to you.  You in return remain healthy and productive.  Ah, hah! Aupointillimite has hit the nail on the head! The presumption is that people who qualify for ADAP are not productive and therefore, should be encouraged, coerced, or compelled to be productive through "volunteer" service.

This might be short-sighted.  I like to think that with proper care, they will be better and return to a "productive" lifestyle.  Its not quite like the stories of welfare queens with a dozen children to get more welfare benefits.  Surely, no one is HIV+ because they want ADAP/ASO assistance.
Title: Re: ADAP an entitlement? Should something be asked back for using it?
Post by: bocker3 on January 31, 2007, 06:38:51 pm
But then what's to stop the government from requiring us to "give back" something for freedom of speech?  . 

The difference is that the government "gives" us services -- it is not a right.  Freedom of Speech is given fromt he Constitution -- it is a right.  (of course, some in our government do find the Constitution to be suggestive versus complusory -- but he'll be leaving office soon)

Now -- I'm not disagreeing with any other points -- I just had to comment on this analogy -- because it is not the same.  One could argue that Health Care should be a right, but it currently is NOT.

Mike
Title: Re: ADAP an entitlement? Should something be asked back for using it?
Post by: aupointillimite on January 31, 2007, 06:40:31 pm
The difference is that the government "gives" us services -- it is not a right.  Freedom of Speech is given fromt he Constitution -- it is a right.  (of course, some in our government do find the Constitution to be suggestive versus complusory -- but he'll be leaving office soon)

Now -- I'm not disagreeing with any other points -- I just had to comment on this analogy -- because it is not the same.  One could argue that Health Care should be a right, but it currently is NOT.

Mike

Just because a right isn't enumerated in the Constitution doesn't mean it doesn't exist.  It says so.

And I think health care IS a right.
Title: Re: ADAP an entitlement? Should something be asked back for using it?
Post by: Lisa on January 31, 2007, 06:44:13 pm
Good points by both of you....sorry for the hijack Win........You fellas may want to peek into the Activism Forum.

::bows out quietly::
Title: Re: ADAP an entitlement? Should something be asked back for using it?
Post by: fondeveau on January 31, 2007, 06:44:39 pm
A strict constructionist would say that a right which is not enumerated does not exist.  Others, argue that the document is a living thing and that, yet more rights emanate from its penumbras...
Title: Re: ADAP an entitlement? Should something be asked back for using it?
Post by: AustinWesley on January 31, 2007, 06:45:53 pm
hmmm ... I think everyone has brought up some interesting points... our government spends 72 billion on Americans a year for health-care while spending 4 trillion dollars overseas... I question this? I think we should provide healthcare to each and everyone in this country... take care of our own first and if we have funds available support and help out other countries who need assistance... also one point made on inmates... do you want to have hiv and be incarcerated? believe me the care is minimal...if not inadequate.

Obviously, I was using my scenerio to bring attention to the lack of assistance to people with HIV & AIDS.   And, no I don't plan to hold up a 7 Eleven, but if I did I am certain I wouldn't be forced to fill out countless forms and deal with all the beuracracy and red tape to get HIV meds.  

Just for the record I'm not on any public assistance program and I am lucky for now to have insurance.  

Others aren't so lucky.    Now, after all the mental anguish they've been through, some even prisoners of their own bodies or minds and we want to humiliate them further by suggesting they are less than worthy by not giving back.

Are there people who could do more?  Sure.  

Are there people abusing the system?  Definitely!

But, as you said all this money going overseas.   Clearly, if that money was redirected back into programs in the US a lot more could be done here at home!



Title: Re: ADAP an entitlement? Should something be asked back for using it?
Post by: aupointillimite on January 31, 2007, 06:47:03 pm
A strict constructionist would say that a right which is not enumerated does not exist.  Others, argue that the document is a living thing and that, yet more rights emanate from its penumbras...

I will quote the Ninth Amendment to the Bill of Rights, then I'm gonna stop hijacking Win's thread.  Sorry, Win!

"The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people."

Can't get more stricly constructed than that.

Suck it, conservatives.   ;)
Title: Re: ADAP an entitlement? Should something be asked back for using it?
Post by: fondeveau on January 31, 2007, 06:50:53 pm
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people....unfortunately, the strict constructionists then argue that this clause indicates that its all federal or state, and nothing is retained by the people.

Alas, another hijack...
Title: Re: ADAP an entitlement? Should something be asked back for using it?
Post by: J.R.E. on January 31, 2007, 06:53:17 pm
Hello Wyn,

"If someone agrees to accepting drug assistance, should that person be asked, be required to give back in some way, through community service, hiv/aids connected or not?"


I have never received any assistance, through any agency federal or local agency, at this point in my HIV/Aids infection. I have been fortunate enough,healthy enough, to still be able to work, and have insurance which makes things affordable right now. Of course anything medically catastrophic, could change that overnight. And I completely understand that I will not always be able to continue working. There will be a point, when I will have to utilize the programs that may be available to me. I have managed through the years to remain somewhat financially responsible, even though there were tough times in the past. But, as long as I can continue to be able to afford medication , and pay the bills, and the other expenses, I, at this point refuse assistance, even if it was available to me. There are others that are more needy.

I don't believe a person should be asked to repay, or volunteer their time back to the community in some form if they are receiving assistance.

HOWEVER....  MY own personal thoughts are, that I would. As long as I was physically and mentally capable, I wouldn't hesitate to give back, if I was receiving assistance in some form. To me, it is just the way I was raised. I don't know how to think differently.

I simply don't believe in taking something, without giving something, I would always try to find some way to pay back. Once again, this is the way I was raised. It kind of sticks with you through all the years.





Just my thoughts-----Ray
Title: Re: ADAP an entitlement? Should something be asked back for using it?
Post by: Miss Philicia on January 31, 2007, 06:53:20 pm
This thread amply illustrates how conservatives over the last two decades have been so very successful at convincing even a more liberal set of people (like many on this thread) that any sort of government entitlement program is skating close to Karl Marx.
Title: Re: ADAP an entitlement? Should something be asked back for using it?
Post by: Dachshund on January 31, 2007, 06:59:05 pm
This thread amply illustrates how conservatives over the last two decades have been so very successful at convincing even a more liberal set of people (like many on this thread) that any sort of government entitlement program is skating close to Karl Marx.

Amen to that brother...oh please may I have another sir?
Title: Re: ADAP an entitlement? Should something be asked back for using it?
Post by: bocker3 on January 31, 2007, 07:06:01 pm
Maybe I'm hijacking, but I don't think so because it seems like Win wanted to get some healthy debate going here (which I enjoy).

I don't view ADAP as an entitlement program, because everyone is not entitled to it.  You have to qualify for it, i.e. it is needs based.  This is how I would prefer our tax dollars be used -- I have good insurance, so the government shouldn't have to foot my bill.  Of course, this argument goes out the window the day that the US gets Universal Health Care funded by the government -- maybe my grandchildren will see that, but I doubt that I will.

Again (back on the thread) -- volunteering is NOT volunteering if its compulsory.  I don't think anyone should be required to "pay back" for this assistance.  I think volunteering would be an excellent idea for people who receive ADAP, as well as for those of us who don't.  I, myself, am guilty of doing more "donating" than "volunteering".  This thread has got me thinking about why this is -- and how I should go about changing it.



Mike

Oh yeah one more thing -- re: the Ninth Amendment
"The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people."

We may retain rights not enumerated, but that doesn't obligate the government to pay for them.  

Again, not saying what is right or wrong -- just adding to the debate.   ;D

Mike

edited to correct my leaving out the word NOT in volunteering is NOT volunteering if it is compulsory.  SOrry about that
Title: Re: ADAP an entitlement? Should something be asked back for using it?
Post by: Miss Philicia on January 31, 2007, 07:16:04 pm
I look at ADAP/Ryan White as political from the get go.  It wasn't so much done for compassion to The Evil Sodomites, but more so the US political elite didn't suffer comparisons by other industrialized countries as letting portions of our populace suffer along the lines of Tanzania.  They already look at us because we have not comprehensive nationalized health services and let everyone run around with automatic weapons.
Title: Re: ADAP an entitlement? Should something be asked back for using it?
Post by: RapidRod on January 31, 2007, 07:32:28 pm
Come talk to me when they start taxing the 10 million illegal aliens, that use our school, get tax dollar for college, use our welfare and social services. Then and maybe then, will you get me to feel ashamed for getting assistance.
Title: Re: ADAP an entitlement? Should something be asked back for using it?
Post by: poet on January 31, 2007, 07:50:02 pm
Forgive me, everyone.  This notebook has tricks I don't understand so I am forced into primitive techniques at the moment.  Wesley, I really do appreciate that you are discussing/debating as opposed to arguing with me.  I have been sending out p.m.'s during this thread to make sure that we are having a discussion.  

Thank you for bringing focus to the newly diagnosed whom we encounter so often here in the forums in their I am lost and alone stage.  Yes, it would be tremendous to create opportunities for the newly diagnosed to interact with other positive men and women, doing things, perhaps other than hiv related things, perhaps 'working' within an a.s.o. feeling useful and given the population, being able to bring up subjects which might be difficult for them.  

Guilting or shaming or requiring was never on my agenda.  Lifting the guilt and shame we often read about here was.  If I seemed to be supporting an equation of entitlements with work/compulsory volunteering, please know that this was drifting over from the draft/compulsory/voluntary national service discussion which was never related to hiv/aids or any other entitlement programs during that discussion.  It seemed to be a door which might open this discussion: would anyone here feel that...?

I thank Mike for bringing in why we may donate over volunteering and how this might make us feel?  Do we feel an urge, a need to donate or volunteer to an a.s.o. whether or not we use or have ever used its services?  Do we feel that it is, like ADAP, already funded and so there is no need?  Do we, as hiv positive men and women feel that we of all people need to give back to (donate or volunteer) an a.s.o. because of its purpose over another not-for-profit if we had to make that decision?  Do you feel the same (lift? satisfaction? empowerment?) donating that you get or would get by volunteering in some way?  We don't have to wade into this, but it's worth keeping around.  Win
Title: Re: ADAP an entitlement? Should something be asked back for using it?
Post by: poet on January 31, 2007, 08:04:35 pm
I think, given the state of American culture... with the heavy emphais on "hard work" and "prosperity being a sign of God's favor" (inheritances from the New England Puritans which have seeped into our national consciousness)

And Win, I know that you are absolutely not trying to make anyone feel guilty... but I think since American society already makes people on the dole feel bad for it... that asking them to "do more" is paramount to having an emotional stranglehold on these people. 


Yes, shame or guilt or anything similar has not been my intention in starting this discussion.  I will say, though, that the needy/poor/on the dole are not the only ones who often feel it.  The wealthy do as well.  It is impossible for anyone human, anyone with feeling, to ever be able to justify either the acquisition or the use of wealth and the all too often crashes of the wealthy, drug overuse, alcoholism/lifestyle of the...  we see is the veneer.  Wealth, like any other form of entitlement, also creates the question, the internal debate: how can I make good use of this, how can or should I give back to my community?  Is cutting a check however large enough? 

Thank you, David NC and J.R.E.  Win
Title: Re: ADAP an entitlement? Should something be asked back for using it?
Post by: poet on January 31, 2007, 08:13:18 pm
Quoting here, although it pulls off off-topic a bit: Its not that quantity buying power or a secret source has aided in the purchase of this food.  Rather, it appears that grocery stores and food distributors have found a way to simultaneously get a tax write-off and save money on their garbage bill by sending $5000.00 "worth" of what would otherwise be dumped in the landfill for distribution to the needy. 

To which I can add, as someone, again, who works at a residence for the mentally challenged who indeed receive food pantry donations from food stores, such as out of date, crushed, dented, surplus food goods: this program, with or without the Red Cross, gets the food which our guys need to live out of the trash and into their mouths.  I don't argue your concerns, but want to clarify for readers that we couldn't do our work if not for this incentive. Win
Title: Re: ADAP an entitlement? Should something be asked back for using it?
Post by: AustinWesley on January 31, 2007, 08:31:25 pm
Quoting here, although it pulls off off-topic a bit: Its not that quantity buying power or a secret source has aided in the purchase of this food.  Rather, it appears that grocery stores and food distributors have found a way to simultaneously get a tax write-off and save money on their garbage bill by sending $5000.00 "worth" of what would otherwise be dumped in the landfill for distribution to the needy. 

To which I can add, as someone, again, who works at a residence for the mentally challenged who indeed receive food pantry donations from food stores, such as out of date, crushed, dented, surplus food goods: this program, with or without the Red Cross, gets the food which our guys need to live out of the trash and into their mouths.  I don't argue your concerns, but want to clarify for readers that we couldn't do our work if not for this incentive. Win

Right here Win is a great point.   See, I wasn't aware you worked for this organization or that this problem existed.   That makes me want to help.  My resources aren't huge, but this is something anyone could help with almost.   Plug your organization and let it be known what's needed clearly.
Title: Re: ADAP an entitlement? Should something be asked back for using it?
Post by: fondeveau on January 31, 2007, 08:36:52 pm
To which I can add, as someone, again, who works at a residence for the mentally challenged who indeed receive food pantry donations from food stores, such as out of date, crushed, dented, surplus food goods: this program, with or without the Red Cross, gets the food which our guys need to live out of the trash and into their mouths.  I don't argue your concerns, but want to clarify for readers that we couldn't do our work if not for this incentive. Win

The situation you face with the mentally challenged is different.  A gift of day-old bread, dented tins, and over-ripe produce provides for what they may not otherwise have at all.  $1000.00 may well be enough to buy $5000.00 "worth" of quality food - think retail vs wholesale and profit margins?  Therefore, if the food being given out really didn't cost anything, but was simply diverted from the landfill, the poor have been cheated, the donors have been robbed and the volunteers have been duped.

 No one paid for it.  It would be like the Salvation Army charging retail for donated clothing.  
Title: Re: ADAP an entitlement? Should something be asked back for using it?
Post by: poet on January 31, 2007, 08:43:52 pm
Wesley, I'll p.m. you rather than lose this thread, BUT I will say, re: a.s.o.'s that both branches of mine on the Cape have food pantries.  I can't yet tell you how large they are, how many people they serve, but I can tell you that if anyone is torn between donate and volunteer, wants to do something keeping in mind this thread's points, anything you come across on sale at your local foodstore helps your a.s.o. meet its needs if it also has a program going: food is food.  If you have the interest or time, dropping off on any basis some homemade baked goods for a.s.o. staff and clients will also give you a glow.  Win
Title: Re: ADAP an entitlement? Should something be asked back for using it?
Post by: koi1 on January 31, 2007, 09:21:37 pm
The term illegal alien is used to dehumanize, mistreat, exploit, and deny inalienable rights, to those picking our produce, cleaning our houses, taking care of our elderly, basically doing the shit work. And by the way they do pay taxes, they just can't file a return. Because our government is only happy to take taxes even on bogus tax id numbers. Financial help is not available for people without legal status. Children no matter what their status have a right to an education constitutionally. Anywayt this person's  bitter comments are irrelevant to the matter at hand. Sorry for the highjack.

Title: Re: ADAP an entitlement? Should something be asked back for using it?
Post by: aupointillimite on January 31, 2007, 09:28:00 pm
The term illegal alien is used to dehumanize, mistreat, exploit, and deny inalienable rights, to those picking our produce, cleaning our houses, taking care of our elderly, basically doing the shit work. Someone's name should be changed to rabid racist.

You just don't ever stop, do you?  Just constantly demonize anyone and everyone here who you says anything that you take umbrage to... you should just stop it because I am getting sick to death of reading your non-stop ad hominem attacks on anyone who you find to be offensive.

Title: Re: ADAP an entitlement? Should something be asked back for using it?
Post by: koi1 on January 31, 2007, 09:33:31 pm
put me on ignore then.

You seem the one who seems contantly intent on attacking me.

Title: Re: ADAP an entitlement? Should something be asked back for using it?
Post by: Miss Philicia on January 31, 2007, 09:38:50 pm
riiiiiiiiiiiight
Title: Re: ADAP an entitlement? Should something be asked back for using it?
Post by: koi1 on January 31, 2007, 09:50:15 pm
My apologies to Rapid Rod. I will remove the dig. His comment had really nothing to do with the thread, but to blame the industrious hard working people who just came here for a better life.  Must be my Sustiva talking.  Too bad I can't have a cold one.  :o
Title: Re: ADAP an entitlement? Should something be asked back for using it?
Post by: dtwpuck on January 31, 2007, 10:44:21 pm
Coming late to this discussion... but a lot of great points are made.

It's all about ethics.  And, ethics tend to be gray.  We are raised to believe the following two things:

  It is the right thing to do to help others in need.   
  Those who accept help should be thankful.

This seems to be a conflict.  The "charity vs gratitude" conflict.  Is it really?

We have reasons why this charity.. in this case a government program.. is something to which we are entitled"

  The government has an obligation to promote the general welfare. 
  Universal healthcare is a right, not a privilege.
  We pay taxes, which act as a form of insurance..  When we get sick, we have rights.

Also, we have reasons why thanksgiving is of importance here:

  Others who receive help from the government have to repay it.
  Doing one good deed in exchange for another is an ethical obligation with which we tend to be raised.

Lastly, it is not a reasonable expectation that someone who is critically ill be obliged to "pay back" the gift of the government.
Most of the arguments above really fall along these lines. 
It is, in my opinion, not reasonable to enforce ethics upon individuals with laws.  (and here, i am not talking about the "thou shall not kill" type of edict, but the "do unto others" type)  You cannot force someone to be thankful for ADAP by requiring them to do some work for society.  You can only force that person to do the work.  If it is not done willingly, then it is not thanks at all, but duty.  And, at the risk of being tautological... duty is not thanks. 

Likewise, should we deny charity to those who do not exhibit thanks?  Perhaps the only thing that ever resonated with me from Christianity is the edict that we do good without any expectation of any kind of return of that good.  In other words, be good, do good, regardless of the reward.  This view, straight from Ecclesiastes, for me is in direct opposition to the prevailing ethical motivation for many... I should be good or I will be punished.

In the end, I would argue that this discussion is distressing.  We, the people, in the form of the government in this case... should support the granting of ADAP without any expectation of a return of thanks from the recipients.  Likewise, the recipients should return that good to the world in the form of thanks.  However, there should be no requirement as to the form that thanks takes.

Sorry for being so obstruse.    puck

Title: Re: ADAP an entitlement? Should something be asked back for using it?
Post by: AustinWesley on February 01, 2007, 12:06:46 am
Coming late to this discussion... but a lot of great points are made.

It's all about ethics.  And, ethics tend to be gray.  We are raised to believe the following two things:

  It is the right thing to do to help others in need.   
  Those who accept help should be thankful.

This seems to be a conflict.  The "charity vs gratitude" conflict.  Is it really?

We have reasons why this charity.. in this case a government program.. is something to which we are entitled"

  The government has an obligation to promote the general welfare. 
  Universal healthcare is a right, not a privilege.
  We pay taxes, which act as a form of insurance..  When we get sick, we have rights.

Also, we have reasons why thanksgiving is of importance here:

  Others who receive help from the government have to repay it.
  Doing one good deed in exchange for another is an ethical obligation with which we tend to be raised.

Lastly, it is not a reasonable expectation that someone who is critically ill be obliged to "pay back" the gift of the government.
Most of the arguments above really fall along these lines. 
It is, in my opinion, not reasonable to enforce ethics upon individuals with laws.  (and here, i am not talking about the "thou shall not kill" type of edict, but the "do unto others" type)  You cannot force someone to be thankful for ADAP by requiring them to do some work for society.  You can only force that person to do the work.  If it is not done willingly, then it is not thanks at all, but duty.  And, at the risk of being tautological... duty is not thanks. 

Likewise, should we deny charity to those who do not exhibit thanks?  Perhaps the only thing that ever resonated with me from Christianity is the edict that we do good without any expectation of any kind of return of that good.  In other words, be good, do good, regardless of the reward.  This view, straight from Ecclesiastes, for me is in direct opposition to the prevailing ethical motivation for many... I should be good or I will be punished.

In the end, I would argue that this discussion is distressing.  We, the people, in the form of the government in this case... should support the granting of ADAP without any expectation of a return of thanks from the recipients.  Likewise, the recipients should return that good to the world in the form of thanks.  However, there should be no requirement as to the form that thanks takes.

Sorry for being so obstruse.    puck



I tend to agree with much of what you have brought up.   

 It is the right thing to do to help others in need.   
  Those who accept help should be thankful.

These words struck me.  Immediately, I'm reminded of the Hurricane Katrina victims for some reason.   I know that's a horrible example of giving back, but so many felt empathy and tried to do the right thing, but the government on all levels failed and it's still a mess.

I guess the point I'm making however off track is some of those people were grateful and gave back.   Other's are still bitter and mad as Hell.

Hmm, what is my point? ;)
Title: Re: ADAP an entitlement? Should something be asked back for using it?
Post by: David_CA on February 01, 2007, 12:08:39 am
I understand what you're saying, David.  I really do.

But then what's to stop the government from requiring us to "give back" something for freedom of speech?  I'm not trying to make your point absurd, but I am always inherently uncomfortable when the government forces citizens to "sacrifice" something.  It's not "service" when it's done under compulsion... it's more akin to slavery. 

Most definitely.  I guess it would be a bit more accurate to say that I don't think there's a thing in the world wrong with the suggestion that people contribute somehow.  I think Win said what I was trying to get at:

Wesley, I'll p.m. you rather than lose this thread, BUT I will say, re: a.s.o.'s that both branches of mine on the Cape have food pantries.  I can't yet tell you how large they are, how many people they serve, but I can tell you that if anyone is torn between donate and volunteer, wants to do something keeping in mind this thread's points, anything you come across on sale at your local foodstore helps your a.s.o. meet its needs if it also has a program going: food is food.  If you have the interest or time, dropping off on any basis some homemade baked goods for a.s.o. staff and clients will also give you a glow.  Win

After all, the subject of the thread is "ADAP an entitlement? Should something be asked back for using it?"  I never meant to imply that something should be required.  Such a system would be impractical to implement and regulate. 

David

David
Title: Re: ADAP an entitlement? Should something be asked back for using it?
Post by: poet on February 01, 2007, 06:56:00 am
The term illegal alien is used to dehumanize, mistreat, exploit, and deny inalienable rights, to those picking our produce, cleaning our houses, taking care of our elderly, basically doing the shit work. And by the way they do pay taxes, they just can't file a return. Because our government is only happy to take taxes even on bogus tax id numbers. Financial help is not available for people without legal status. Children no matter what their status have a right to an education constitutionally. Anywayt this person's  bitter comments are irrelevant to the matter at hand. Sorry for the highjack.




Rob, you are on target about illegal alliens and where their tax dollars go if collected.  I was tempted to hijack the discussion to point this out myself, but caught myself. :)

What I missed until I read another post and looked more carefully is what we are going to have to work on in the forums and this is NOT addressed at any one person.  Some of the topics can set each of us off.  If it sets us off, if it gets us thinking about things, that's one of the points of spending time here, right?  I worded the title of this thread in the hope of starting a debate, but not in the hope of enabling baiting and sideswipes at other posters.  When in doubt, use 'I,' as in 'I feel this way' or 'I feel that way.'  Much as it feels as though the other posters are across the table from us, curb the 'you' as in 'you said...' 'how could you....'  Another thread was timeconsuming to get through because of the sniping and yet the purpose of the thread, the debate going on within it, was worth the effort of dodging objects.  Win
Title: Re: ADAP an entitlement? Should something be asked back for using it?
Post by: poet on February 01, 2007, 07:36:35 am
Getting to Puck, let me thank everyone else who has posted comments here but whom I have not previously thanked for his/her thoughts, including Lisa who was right to interject activism if only because self-empowerment is, for me, a form of activism. 

Murky, perhaps, to define 'thankful,' how someone 'should be thankful?'  As a staff member with the mentally challenged, I constantly hear other staff members reminding the guys to say thank you to someone.  But if they don't get the concept as our guys may not, does it 'count?'  Is this, Puck or anyone, like forcing people to be thankful, to show thankfulness by doing something?  I would agree that forcing thankfulness gets us nowhere.  The person doing the thanking doesn't feel empowered by his or her action.  He or she feels forced.  Requiring work in return for ADAP, to return to the thread topic, doesn't, for me work, but that leaves open the door to someone offering his or her services-volunteering them- and it leaves open the responsibility, perhaps, of an a.s.o. to show someone volunteer oportunities. 

To pull things all the way back to the radioopensource.org discussion, how is it that we have reached the point that some people pause at the equation, pause at 'compulsory' and pause at 'volunteer?'  It's something that I noticed, moving from NYC to the Cape:  you don't think here when someone has dropped something, needs a driveway plowed, has a package delivered to them when they aren't home.  How is it, as someone p.m.'d to me last night, that the instinct to return a favor, offset a benefit, accept something needed but automatically find something which can be given back has somehow gotten lost?  Why do we chafe at the concept?  Why do we have to list what we already do give/pay out as if to say, 'so leave me alone'?  Win
Title: Re: ADAP an entitlement? Should something be asked back for using it?
Post by: fondeveau on February 01, 2007, 08:25:30 am
1) Kindness is its own reward.

2) Even subtle hints regarding volunteer opportunities can be coercive.  That coercion could very well lead the people in need of the services/entitlement to forego those services rather than be subjected to pressure and coercion, being made to feel guilty, etc.

3) The door is always open for someone to volunteer. 

So, really your topic is simply whether people are inherently good and will do what they can and what they should or whether people are selfish and evil and must be controlled by society.  I vote for the preservation of the dignity of the individual.
Title: Re: ADAP an entitlement? Should something be asked back for using it?
Post by: mjmel on February 01, 2007, 09:47:57 am
 I give back if and when I can. I believe most of us do. Voluntarily.

A quote for queer folk:
Blanche DuBois said, "I have always relied on the kindness of strangers..."
Title: Re: ADAP an entitlement? Should something be asked back for using it?
Post by: David_CA on February 01, 2007, 10:30:44 am
Requiring work in return for ADAP, to return to the thread topic, doesn't, for me work, but that leaves open the door to someone offering his or her services-volunteering them- and it leaves open the responsibility, perhaps, of an a.s.o. to show someone volunteer oportunities. 

I guess I somewhat agree with this statement, but only a little.  I have to give back for my benefits.  I'm required to work and receive benefits (as well as an income) in return.  The State (my employer) doesn't pay me plus give me benefits and allow me to decide whether or not I should have to come to work.  If my showing up for work stops, so do my benefits. 

Although I don't have the option to receive my benefits without working, I still feel thankful.  I should.  I try to show my thanks to my employer by being a decent employee and doing a good job.  I think those receiving ANY sort of benefits that are not directly tied to work and a paycheck should also be thankful.  There are so many that don't / can't receive benefits for a variety of reasons (those that died while waiting on South Carolina's ADAP program, for example) that I'd think that most of us who are insured, on ADAP, or on some other sort of assistance program would be willing to do something (within their abilities) in return.

David
Title: Re: ADAP an entitlement? Should something be asked back for using it?
Post by: poet on February 01, 2007, 11:42:08 am
1) Kindness is its own reward.

2) Even subtle hints regarding volunteer opportunities can be coercive.  That coercion could very well lead the people in need of the services/entitlement to forego those services rather than be subjected to pressure and coercion, being made to feel guilty, etc.

3) The door is always open for someone to volunteer. 

So, really your topic is simply whether people are inherently good and will do what they can and what they should or whether people are selfish and evil and must be controlled by society.  I vote for the preservation of the dignity of the individual.


With 2 above, it is tricky, agreed.  I hope that I have made it clear, over and over, that opportunities are a way of anyone experiencing guilt or shame or anything similar if he or she feels like taking them up, feels encouraged in the mental health way that we are required to 'encourage' our guys to maximise their capabilities.  How?  By taking at look at their capabilities and their limitations and either finding things that they can do or ways that they can do things, which brings us back to the point that no one should feel that there is nothing that he or she can offer because the staff of an a.s.o., sitting with the full file, should be trained to connect the dots.  Who else other than an a.s.o. staff member who, hopefully, understands hiv/aids, can do this, as well as the community advisory board members, right? Always, always voluntary. 

With 3 above, see 2.  When I looked at the volunteer opportunities on our website, delivering meals, working in the kitchen, etc., none of them would answer the needs of Bear's partner, Kurt.  They show volunteer gaps in thinking and because we know that many people would be shy about pointing out what they can't do, dead ends which we are responsible, I hope, for seeing and solving.

My topic is not on whether people are inherently good or bad.  My topic, which came out of a discussion about national service, whether, to keep America the country that it is and has been, national service, whether compulsory or voluntary, is something which we should have.  So, to get this debate going, I said if the price of peace is having the military, is there, should there be, a price for something like ADAP.  That is what we have been discussing.  Win
Title: Re: ADAP an entitlement? Should something be asked back for using it?
Post by: AustinWesley on February 01, 2007, 11:58:43 am
Getting to Puck, let me thank everyone else who has posted comments here but whom I have not previously thanked for his/her thoughts, including Lisa who was right to interject activism if only because self-empowerment is, for me, a form of activism. 

Murky, perhaps, to define 'thankful,' how someone 'should be thankful?'  As a staff member with the mentally challenged, I constantly hear other staff members reminding the guys to say thank you to someone.  But if they don't get the concept as our guys may not, does it 'count?'  Is this, Puck or anyone, like forcing people to be thankful, to show thankfulness by doing something?  I would agree that forcing thankfulness gets us nowhere.  The person doing the thanking doesn't feel empowered by his or her action.  He or she feels forced.  Requiring work in return for ADAP, to return to the thread topic, doesn't, for me work, but that leaves open the door to someone offering his or her services-volunteering them- and it leaves open the responsibility, perhaps, of an a.s.o. to show someone volunteer oportunities. 

To pull things all the way back to the radioopensource.org discussion, how is it that we have reached the point that some people pause at the equation, pause at 'compulsory' and pause at 'volunteer?'  It's something that I noticed, moving from NYC to the Cape:  you don't think here when someone has dropped something, needs a driveway plowed, has a package delivered to them when they aren't home.  How is it, as someone p.m.'d to me last night, that the instinct to return a favor, offset a benefit, accept something needed but automatically find something which can be given back has somehow gotten lost?  Why do we chafe at the concept?  Why do we have to list what we already do give/pay out as if to say, 'so leave me alone'?  Win

Hey Win,

Hmm, I can see how degrading it would be to have some staff member tell a paitient to say thank you.   Isn't it enough if the staff member just says thanks?

However, I understand that whoever the donor was might not come back again if they feel unappreciated or aknowledged.

Wesley
Title: Re: ADAP an entitlement? Should something be asked back for using it?
Post by: poet on February 01, 2007, 12:07:11 pm
Sidetracking again, Wesley?  ;D Our guys, the residents, are not 'patients' for us as residential staff members.  It's their house.  We just work there.  In fact one of the guys loves firing everyone.  I was fired because I brought the tine of the fork to his teeth while feeding him breakfast.  The other staff member was fired because he wanted the wrong team to win.  But, when I reminded him that there was no one left then to cook him his breakfast, he rehired us or, rather, said, 'you know that I was kidding?'  The most recent thanking reminder was to another of the guys to whom I had brought the t.v. section and comics.  It's the constant reminding the guys of expectations out there as we work on their behaviour.  Win
Title: Re: ADAP an entitlement? Should something be asked back for using it?
Post by: AustinWesley on February 01, 2007, 12:07:59 pm
1) Kindness is its own reward.

2) Even subtle hints regarding volunteer opportunities can be coercive.  That coercion could very well lead the people in need of the services/entitlement to forego those services rather than be subjected to pressure and coercion, being made to feel guilty, etc.

3) The door is always open for someone to volunteer. 

So, really your topic is simply whether people are inherently good and will do what they can and what they should or whether people are selfish and evil and must be controlled by society.  I vote for the preservation of the dignity of the individual.

I agree with your points completely, especially the 2nd one.   I'd done a public article when I found out I was positive last year.   After, I had every gay and HIV organization hitting me up for this or that or wanting me to volunteer etc.   When I have declined various offers I've been snubbed by these people and thier various organizations.   I shall leave names out, but I can tell you coercive tactics are obnoxious and repelled me from lending a helping hand to any of these people or organizations.  
Title: Re: ADAP an entitlement? Should something be asked back for using it?
Post by: fondeveau on February 01, 2007, 07:18:27 pm


With 2 above, it is tricky, agreed.  I hope that I have made it clear, over and over, that opportunities are a way of anyone experiencing guilt or shame or anything similar if he or she feels like taking them up, feels encouraged in the mental health way that we are required to 'encourage' our guys to maximise their capabilities.  How?  By taking at look at their capabilities and their limitations and either finding things that they can do or ways that they can do things, which brings us back to the point that no one should feel that there is nothing that he or she can offer because the staff of an a.s.o., sitting with the full file, should be trained to connect the dots.  Who else other than an a.s.o. staff member who, hopefully, understands hiv/aids, can do this, as well as the community advisory board members, right? Always, always voluntary. 

With 3 above, see 2.  When I looked at the volunteer opportunities on our website, delivering meals, working in the kitchen, etc., none of them would answer the needs of Bear's partner, Kurt.  They show volunteer gaps in thinking and because we know that many people would be shy about pointing out what they can't do, dead ends which we are responsible, I hope, for seeing and solving.

My topic is not on whether people are inherently good or bad.  My topic, which came out of a discussion about national service, whether, to keep America the country that it is and has been, national service, whether compulsory or voluntary, is something which we should have.  So, to get this debate going, I said if the price of peace is having the military, is there, should there be, a price for something like ADAP.  That is what we have been discussing.  Win

Somewhat.  A discussion should grow and examine finer points along the way.  It seems that a lot of your perspective comes from working with mentally disabled people.  I think those on ADAP have a bit more on their minds than whether you hit their tooth with the tine of a fork or the wrong team won.  They  might have worries about how to pay the rent, where their next meal will come from, will there be heat, will I get my meds, and myriad other daily stresses that the mentally disabled just need not face because, as a society, we take care of them.  We take care of ADAP recipients, somewhat.  Thats where the similarity ends.

So, again comparing apples to oranges, you suggest that evaluating a developmentally disabled person to try and expand their capabilities is similar to evaluating an ADAP recipient to see what they can repay and how.  You just don't seem to get it.   People get ADAP because they don't have resources to pay.  You may then counter that surely they have time.  Wrong.  ADAP recipients are busy surviving.  They don't have the time or energy to endure national service requirements or indentured volunteerism.  If those who do have the time and energy choose to volunteer, great. 

I find it incredible that  you suggest national service as a way for those on ADAP to get rid of their guilt or shame for being on ADAP?  What guilt or shame is it that these poor souls should further endure by being labelled unpatriotic, un-American, or just plain, bad, if they fail to do their part in "keeping America the country that it is and has been through national service."  So, yes, you are asking whether people are good or bad and whether society should compel good behaviour through national service.
Title: Re: ADAP an entitlement? Should something be asked back for using it?
Post by: bear60 on February 01, 2007, 07:28:58 pm
Kurt has a lot of talent with computers and unless he were here, I would NOT be on here making this post.  He does not want to join in discussion, cannot be "active" and on his feet, but he knows more than most of us about computers.
Kurt is one of the most guilt free people I know.
Title: Re: ADAP an entitlement? Should something be asked back for using it?
Post by: dtwpuck on February 01, 2007, 07:32:53 pm
My topic is not on whether people are inherently good or bad.  My topic, which came out of a discussion about national service, whether, to keep America the country that it is and has been, national service, whether compulsory or voluntary, is something which we should have.  So, to get this debate going, I said if the price of peace is having the military, is there, should there be, a price for something like ADAP.  That is what we have been discussing.  Win

I would debate whether America is or ever has been the country of national service.  Every bit of evidence you could present that we are a country of national service could easily be countered by equally persuasive evidence that it is not.  (Draft vs draft dodgers, christian charity vs christianity, inc.).  I would say that any ideal of America which includes the rosey and Reaganesque city on the hill of happily serving volunteers needs a dose of reality.  In my opinion, it is an idealized reaction to the reality that charity and volunteer service is basically incompatible with capitalism.   

That does not stop people from doing so.  In fact, in my opinion, it is part of human nature that when it comes face to face with suffering to want to do something.  However, it is equally a part of human nature to ignore suffering when it is not apparent.  Americans are no more human than anyone else, and I feel deeply uncomfortable with the implication that there is any kind of ethical birthright to the accident of geography which is citizenship.

Therefore I stand by my original thesis that it is an ethical obligation of human society to help the less fortunate without expectation of reward and it is the ethical obligation of the helped to appreciate it without reference to the form of appreciation.
Title: Re: ADAP an entitlement? Should something be asked back for using it?
Post by: bear60 on February 01, 2007, 08:21:30 pm
OK Win
I made the effort to ask Kurt how he feels about this mandatory national service for people who recieve ADAP or Ryan White Fund drug assistence.
He was very very much against it.  I asked why.
He said:
1 Not everyone will be ABLE to do it
2 Some will not be able to make the TIME to do it
3 It smacks of "you're bad" so you have to pay a penalty. ( The old stigma problem )
So, you have gotten the response from someone who does not post on the boards at all and who knew NOTHING about this discussion before I asked him to give me an opinion.
Title: Re: ADAP an entitlement? Should something be asked back for using it?
Post by: poet on February 01, 2007, 08:38:33 pm
Somewhat.  A discussion should grow and examine finer points along the way.  It seems that a lot of your perspective comes from working with mentally disabled people.  I think those on ADAP have a bit more on their minds than whether you hit their tooth with the tine of a fork or the wrong team won.  They  might have worries about how to pay the rent, where their next meal will come from, will there be heat, will I get my meds, and myriad other daily stresses that the mentally disabled just need not face because, as a society, we take care of them.  We take care of ADAP recipients, somewhat.  Thats where the similarity ends.

So, again comparing apples to oranges, you suggest that evaluating a developmentally disabled person to try and expand their capabilities is similar to evaluating an ADAP recipient to see what they can repay and how.  You just don't seem to get it.   People get ADAP because they don't have resources to pay.  You may then counter that surely they have time.  Wrong.  ADAP recipients are busy surviving.  They don't have the time or energy to endure national service requirements or indentured volunteerism.  If those who do have the time and energy choose to volunteer, great. 

I find it incredible that  you suggest national service as a way for those on ADAP to get rid of their guilt or shame for being on ADAP?  What guilt or shame is it that these poor souls should further endure by being labelled unpatriotic, un-American, or just plain, bad, if they fail to do their part in "keeping America the country that it is and has been through national service."  So, yes, you are asking whether people are good or bad and whether society should compel good behaviour through national service.


My fault with the aside in reply to Wesley (about the guys thanking and what they seem to grasp.)  I seriously doubt that any of the four guys I work with have the ability to sress over rent, meals or heat and, with one of the guys, his stress over medications is of a different sort entirely.  I'm sorry if this has confused the thread's discussion.

As for those on ADAP and what at least one of them had on his mind, I was someone on ADAP in New York.  Again, I brought ADAP into the picture because of the easily understood line between the Ryan White Act and ADAP funding.  So, coming out of the discussion about national service, I then created a thread about entitlements and asked a question to stimulate some thinking about them.  

I brought into the discussion what I now, having read through this thread, feel may be- may be- a fault in our thinking from the a.s.o. angle, that we perhaps fail to take into account capabilities.  As someone who was on ADAP, I actually do know what resources I had and what time I had and am equally aware that my situation will be different from person x, or y, or z.  At no point have I suggested either national service of indentured volunteerism as answers.  Remember, questions that I pull out, unless they are followed by something like, 'I think that...' are meant to feed a discussion.  Finally, what I have found in these forums is lot's of expressions of guilt and shame, largely connected to seroconversion, guilt and shame that I am working my best here to lift, not and never apply.

This is why I encourage people who are posting to get heated, start thinking, but to tell us what 'you' think as in 'I think this' or 'I think that' and not tell anyone one of us 'you' think this or that.  Win
Title: Re: ADAP an entitlement? Should something be asked back for using it?
Post by: poet on February 01, 2007, 08:43:15 pm
Thanks, Bear, for Kurt's first sideways post. :)  I hope you let him know that he has now participated?  We have our community advisory board meeting tomorrow and this subject as well as the one on is health care a right might drive some more clients to attend a future meeting.  This was not my thinking behind starting the thread, but since it has had a good run here, it might have a good run when we can look at each other across a table and talk about this in real time.  Best, Win
Title: Re: ADAP an entitlement? Should something be asked back for using it?
Post by: fondeveau on February 01, 2007, 11:22:21 pm
Well, I hope you won't express any opinions or stimulate discussion that may promote action on these issues at the advisory board meeting! J/K! 
Title: Re: ADAP an entitlement? Should something be asked back for using it?
Post by: poet on February 02, 2007, 06:09:43 am
As long as two or more people feel that they have been able to get out there where they stand and why, I think that a good thing has happened.  If each of them feels that he or she was respected for clearly expressing his or her opinion, I would think that even better, whether or not everyone could agree with that position.  I feel that we grow so much here in the forums by stretching our brains, working with the contradictory, by being forced to hear things out, perhaps for the first time.  Best, Win
Title: Re: ADAP an entitlement? Should something be asked back for using it?
Post by: fondeveau on February 02, 2007, 06:01:06 pm
I'm surprised you used the pronoun "I" in three places in your last post.  Your post could, of course, be rewritten as follows:

As long as two or more people feel that they have been able to get out there where they stand and why, [I think that] a good thing has happened.  If each of them feels that he or she was respected for clearly expressing his or her opinion, [I would think] that [is] even better, whether or not everyone could agree with that position.  [I feel that] [W]e grow so much here in the forums by stretching our brains, working with the contradictory, by being forced to hear things out, perhaps for the first time.  Best, Win

That way there would be no possibility of anyone concluding that you had any opinion whatsoever.  Except, that it is implicit in writing unless stated otherwise or extremely clear from the context that what is written does reflect the perspective of the author?  When it isn't clear what you are attempting to express, I will restate what I think you think or meant as I truly enjoy learning especially about perspectives beyond my somewhat limited perspective.
Title: Re: ADAP an entitlement? Should something be asked back for using it?
Post by: SouthSam7 on February 06, 2007, 04:49:49 pm
That's a great question; I intend to read all the responses so far at work tonight.  I did, however, want to comment on the original post, briefly.  I think that ADAP should be given out with a sliding scale.  In other words, those on disability or zero income should get their meds for free.  Those who make over $200,000 a year should probably be able to pay for their meds on their own.  For the rest of us (LIKE ME!), we're screwed as the program is right now.

I have (very basic) health insurance.  I make $800 a month working full-time.  I pay $134 for my health insurance.  Because my insurance pays a percentage of prescription coverage, I've now been kicked off ADAP in my state.  Now I can't afford meds AT ALL.  There should be something to fill the gap.  If I were to pay for my meds now, I will have to come up with over $400 a month to pay the part my insurance doesn't pay.  It might as well be $4,000,000 a month; I can't afford it. 

Even with my proof of (low) income, I can't stay on ADAP.  That is so unfair.  Anyone have an opinion?  Wish me luck; I got my last ADAP meds yesterday : (

Sam in 'bama
Title: Re: ADAP an entitlement? Should something be asked back for using it?
Post by: SouthSam7 on February 07, 2007, 06:42:26 am
Any opinion about my last posting? Thanks,
Sam
Title: Re: ADAP an entitlement? Should something be asked back for using it?
Post by: poet on February 07, 2007, 07:03:51 am
Sorry to leave you hanging there, Sam.  I wasn't sure if you were going to make another post after reading through the posts.  I also had a report about the income gap between people and how it is thought about at Amherst College here in MA which was on NPR on Tuesday afternoon.  In their report, we heard from a guy from a low/modest income family who was amazed that one of his peers was driving a Porche.  How some at the college feel that it is part of its role to level the playing field, to make sure that opportunities (an internship during the Summer in Washington, DC, for example) aren't off the table because of someone's family's income.  So your sliding scale comment made me start to think about a gap, there is no single program out there which ties in housing, food, drugs, medical care for someone with hiv/aids.  ADAP is, by definition, an assistance program for drugs for many, healthcare itself sometimes being in there, but to varying degrees.  So it's up to case workers to bring all the needed programs to a client. 

If we use you as an example, if you are grossing/netting (?) $800.00/month, where does that get you in terms of the larger picture, drugs, healthcare, housing, food, gas, utilities?  Win