Loan to friend leads to bad feelings!

[mecch]

I just need to vent a little.  A friend borrowed my credit card a few times in summer 2009 for an emergency and I helped him out.  But the last two charges, suddenly he was broke. I was patient for a few months and then suggested he pay me back a bit each month, as in 100 bucks or so. Its about 1200 bucks.  That insulted his integrity as he is fond of the "grand gesture".  Dum de dum de dum time passes and there is no talking to him about the times since then I could have used 1000+ bucks and didn't have it.  
It came to a weird head last week when I ran into him in a thrift shop the other day and he was buying me some coasters for about 5 bucks, for Christmas. I said that's nice but I don't want coasters cause I don't use them. And then I got really hurt and pissed off and told him he really had to find a way to pay me back.  

He has spent a few times several hundred in front of me, since the loan, on stuff for his house. I had a talk with him about 2 months ago and said, everytime I need 1000 bucks I think of this loan and he went on and on with different excuses about how much money he owes to everyone and how much money everyone owes to him.  Its just not my problem.  

I explained the things I didn't treat myself too last year - like a ticket to the USA to visit my family.  Etc etc.  He just looked right through me. There is some kind of disconnect.  He has to do it his way there is no possibility of negotiation.

Its just enraging because otherwise we have fun, support each other, talk everyday, etc etc. He's a very close friend but there is some kind of irrational behavior about money.

My shrink told me a month or two ago to write it off.  But I opened my big mouth and told him directly again at that shop the other day that he should pay me back and soon, that he should sacrifice his pleasure or possessions to repay the loan and not wait for huge windfalls that he always talks about, (and which in the past, sometimes do come in for him.)

He has since written me notes about how unclassy my behavior is. Its so fucking enraging!  About how he only had 20 bucks with him and had been buying me something and I insulted him terribly. I guess it wasn't so nice for me to insult the little gesture, but behind it is the big gesture of the fuck you to my wallet.

My shrink was correct. I have to write it off. But maybe its too late for the friendship. I just told off his bf too, saying enough was enough - they could have sold any one of numerous possessions of value and paid the bill collectors by now.

So, thanks, I just needed to vent.

Sometimes these loans go off without a hitch. I guess you never know when someone is going to turn out to be a deadbeat.  And then what do you do??  You need to be insulted for putting the lie to the truth in calling them that?  

[ElZorro]

Sorry to hear this, Mecch...the same thing happened to me a few years ago although I eventually got my money back.

Since then, I observe the rule that "The quickest way to lose a friend is to loan them money". If a friend asks for a loan, I look at it as a "gift" and just hope I see the money again sometime in the future.

I hope things work out for you, though.

[J.R.E.]

There was a pool hall I used to frequent, quite a bit when I was a teenager, and as an adult.

They had this written above the pool tables on the wall :

I met a friend, I loaned him ten

I haven't seen my friend since then.

Another friend, he borrowed five,

I doubt that he is still alive.

I  am now convinced that in the end,

A fellow can't trust his own best friend.   


Ray

[ElZorro]

Sad, but true, Ray! 

[mecch]

I mean, it seems to me I have loaned big bucks (big to me) and not had problems. It seems a shame to stop helping friends when they are in need. I guess ElZorro view is kind of like what my shrink was saying. It's a lesson to me - only loan when you know its possible you won't get it back.
What kills me is that he could pay it back but there is some psychological block there - he can't do it without personal inconvenience and sacrifice.  He's just waiting for when it is easy, and thus my reminders are "bad taste". Geez! The hypocrisy.

[Hoover]

what is it Benjamin Franklin said?
Neither a borrower nor lender be.

Hoover

[Basquo]

Usually when people owe me money, I never see them. which reminds me of an old saying, not sure where I heard it, but if someone owes you $XX.XX and you never see them again, it was probably worth it.

I vote for writing it off and him, too. This has caused you enough stress. Let it go and let the friendship, if that's what it still is, go, too.

[wolfter]

I never loan more than I can afford to give away.  If it doesn't get paid back, it's a small price to pay to discover someone's true character.

[Hellraiser]

You won't see that money again, write it off.  If in some weird twist of fate he does end up repaying you fantastic.  What I'm wondering is why on Earth was he out shopping for knick knacks when he only had 20 bucks to his name.  That makes absolutely no economic sense whatsoever.

[Cliff]

Sounds like you've communicated as often and as forceful as you possibly can, that you need the money back.  It sounds like he's heard the message, loud and clear, and he is unwilling or unable to pay.  I would write it off and let it go.  This is causing you too much grief and it's unlikely to lead to a payback.

[Theyer]

Me thinks your friend is from money ? or at least wants to act like like he is , also its now a power struggle between the two off you, I am sorry meech . You could tell him that you have sold the dept on to a friend off a friend called you think Yuri something and that he,ll be contacting him............
take care
t

[Ann]

Next time you're at his house, pick up a few of his pricey household possessions and leave. If he protests, tell him they were bought with your money and he can buy them back from the pawn shop.

[mecch]

Next time you're at his house, pick up a few of his pricey household possessions and leave. If he protests, tell him they were bought with your money and he can buy them back from the pawn shop.

Right on Ann, that is what my shrink told me to do. Pick an object and tell him that I'll erase the debt in exchange.  I don't really want any of his objects, but it would sort of the settle the whole affair.

[ElZorro]

Right on Ann, that is what my shrink told me to do. Pick an object and tell him that I'll erase the debt in exchange.  I don't really want any of his objects, but it would sort of the settle the whole affair.

make it something important that he will miss and will serve as a reminder to him of what he put you through so he doesn't do it again to someone else - like an arm or a leg 

[Ann]

Right on Ann, that is what my shrink told me to do. Pick an object and tell him that I'll erase the debt in exchange.  I don't really want any of his objects, but it would sort of the settle the whole affair.

You don't have to keep what you take, sell it! Get your money back.

[Cliff]

What will you do if he says no?

[madbrain]

I just need to vent a little.  A friend borrowed my credit card a few times in summer 2009 for an emergency and I helped him out.  But the last two charges, suddenly he was broke. I was patient for a few months and then suggested he pay me back a bit each month, as in 100 bucks or so. Its about 1200 bucks.  That insulted his integrity as he is fond of the "grand gesture".  Dum de dum de dum time passes and there is no talking to him about the times since then I could have used 1000+ bucks and didn't have it.  
It came to a weird head last week when I ran into him in a thrift shop the other day and he was buying me some coasters for about 5 bucks, for Christmas. I said that's nice but I don't want coasters cause I don't use them. And then I got really hurt and pissed off and told him he really had to find a way to pay me back.  

He has spent a few times several hundred in front of me, since the loan, on stuff for his house. I had a talk with him about 2 months ago and said, everytime I need 1000 bucks I think of this loan and he went on and on with different excuses about how much money he owes to everyone and how much money everyone owes to him.  Its just not my problem.  

I explained the things I didn't treat myself too last year - like a ticket to the USA to visit my family.  Etc etc.  He just looked right through me. There is some kind of disconnect.  He has to do it his way there is no possibility of negotiation.

Its just enraging because otherwise we have fun, support each other, talk everyday, etc etc. He's a very close friend but there is some kind of irrational behavior about money.

My shrink told me a month or two ago to write it off.  But I opened my big mouth and told him directly again at that shop the other day that he should pay me back and soon, that he should sacrifice his pleasure or possessions to repay the loan and not wait for huge windfalls that he always talks about, (and which in the past, sometimes do come in for him.)

He has since written me notes about how unclassy my behavior is. Its so fucking enraging!  About how he only had 20 bucks with him and had been buying me something and I insulted him terribly. I guess it wasn't so nice for me to insult the little gesture, but behind it is the big gesture of the fuck you to my wallet.

My shrink was correct. I have to write it off. But maybe its too late for the friendship. I just told off his bf too, saying enough was enough - they could have sold any one of numerous possessions of value and paid the bill collectors by now.

So, thanks, I just needed to vent.

Sometimes these loans go off without a hitch. I guess you never know when someone is going to turn out to be a deadbeat.  And then what do you do??  You need to be insulted for putting the lie to the truth in calling them that?  

Was it clear that it was a loan ? It sounds like your "friend" is treating is a gift. How serious was the emergency ? Was it medical ?

Some people are just prone to using others. I learned a lesson 15x as expensive as yours before with my alcoholic ex ... Needless to say, we are not on speaking terms anymore. And I'm not making any more loans to anyone else now, except deposits at FDIC-insured banks.
I think it's time to drop him from your life and find better friends.

[madbrain]

I mean, it seems to me I have loaned big bucks (big to me) and not had problems. It seems a shame to stop helping friends when they are in need. I guess ElZorro view is kind of like what my shrink was saying. It's a lesson to me - only loan when you know its possible you won't get it back.

I'm not sure that it's the right lesson to learn, I think the nature of the emergency really matters, some are less serious than others. If you do loan, the terms need to be clearly set from the beginning.

What kills me is that he could pay it back but there is some psychological block there - he can't do it without personal inconvenience and sacrifice.  He's just waiting for when it is easy, and thus my reminders are "bad taste". Geez! The hypocrisy.

It will never get any easier for him. At what point are you going to start adding interest to the balance ? Most bank deals charge interest from day one, the more generous one 12 months interest free.  Unfortunately it doesn't seem you clearly set out the terms at the beginning, making them up as you go might seem harsh to him. But if it was a loan it is only fair that he at least pays you back an amount that keeps up with inflation. Anything less would be a gift.

[madbrain]

what is it Benjamin Franklin said?
Neither a borrower nor lender be.

Hoover

That's not really practical, unless you like to stuff all your money under your mattress.

[madbrain]

Right on Ann, that is what my shrink told me to do. Pick an object and tell him that I'll erase the debt in exchange.  I don't really want any of his objects, but it would sort of the settle the whole affair.

I don't like the approach much, this could get even uglier than it already is. Since you don't want any of his objects, you would need to take things with enough resale value to actually settle the debt. Unless you are an appraiser or bring one with you at your next visit, it might be hard to put a price tag on many of his possessions. Also, you may not know what belongs to him or his boyfriend if they live together.
Unless you are aware of some significant purchases he has made for himself.

[mecch]

The shrink thought I should choose something I liked and would keep.
It was not a loan. I never agreed to a loan. It became a loan when suddenly he was short to pay back the last three charges. It was to help him move.
I told him before and after the unrequested "loan" that I didnt have the money to make the loan. I mentioned it several times in the fall of 2009 and then he wasnt budging to figure it out. 
I sent two nice reminders that he should pay it back, or at least pay it a bit by month.
This couple were very present helping to pick me up off the floor during my breakdown, breakup from a longterm relationship, and then subsequent seroconversion.
Its a petty childlike problem he has with money and his currently limited resources.  Yeah, he's usually rich.

My shrink and his boyfriend both say he doesn't really get the logic of having to make good on returning a demanded favour.

If I were flush with funds, I wouldnt be worrying about this.  2009 and 2010 were extremely tight, adjusting to single living again. 

It has turned into a silly power play, the kind in fact we laugh about and deride with we talk about other people. Now it hit home.  He curls up into himself when I mention it.  He does not easily admit mistakes.  The excuses come of his miserable money problems but I never hear "sorry" and I never hear "oh, how dreadful I am causing you inconvenience"  Instead there are dreamy promises of future luxury trips, with me as a guest of his family. I always bring it back to the brass tacks and he panicks.

I have decided on this solution:
1) I am sending him the bills again with no cover letter other than
2) 6 payment slips filled out in my name that he can pay at the post office over 6 months.
3) A print out of an airline ticket I can't buy now to visit my family on winter break in February, and a note that says, see, this is what I need with my money.
and
4) I have just made other plans for XMas which I would have spent with them.

And we will just see where that leads. 

His BF told me he would see to it I got the money from xmas (the bf has no funds of his own) but I had to stop talking to him about it too.

So I expect to be with others on New Years, as well, and probably without these friends for the new year.  Fresh start.

Its sad. Im sad.    200 bucks a month would have been the right gesture, starting some time ago.

[bocker3]

I don't like the approach much, this could get even uglier than it already is. Since you don't want any of his objects, you would need to take things with enough resale value to actually settle the debt. Unless you are an appraiser or bring one with you at your next visit, it might be hard to put a price tag on many of his possessions. Also, you may not know what belongs to him or his boyfriend if they live together.
Unless you are aware of some significant purchases he has made for himself.

Not to mention that this is theft.  I don't believe that it is OK (from a legal perspective) to resort to self-help.  If you were in the US, I'd say take him to Small Claims court (or Judge Judy) -- of course, you would then have to prove that you had an oral contract about repaying.

I will NEVER lend money to a friend for this reason.  I have given money, but would never lend.  You end up without a friend OR the money.  Similar thing with family -- I have "loaned" money to family, but never money that I couldn't afford to not see again.  Only once has the money ever come back.

At some point you simply have to let it go (the sooner the better IMO).  It's making you miserable -- probably more miserable than he is about it.

So -- lesson here is, friends and loans equal big fat mess.

Mike

P.S. -- If I had a shrink that was suggesting that I go steal from someone (whatever the reason), I would consider finding a new shrink.

[GSOgymrat]

P.S. -- If I had a shrink that was suggesting that I go steal from someone (whatever the reason), I would consider finding a new shrink.

I agree. I hope the "shrink" was using a paradoxical intervention to get Mecch to think about the problem in a different manner and didn't really recommend he steal from the deadbeat.

[tednlou2]

Money, friends, and family often don't mix.  My friend moved here and I let him live with me.  He got a decent paying job--not awesome pay but still over 30k.  I told him his rent would be $300/mth which included a room, electricity, water, cable/internet, etc.  He thought that was too high.  He was thinking more like $100/mth.  I told him he must be crazy.  He believed we had to pay for cable and internet regardless of whether he was here.  And, he believed since he was always gone, he wasn't really using $300 worth.  It was very difficult to get the $300/mth from him.  He always had excuses.  I couldn't figure out where all his money was going.  He only had a car payment of $400, car ins of $100, cell for $100, and the $300 for his rent.  He always claimed to be broke. 

Well, he eventually moved out and was paying $700/mth in rent.  I asked him how it is he can now pay $400/mth more in rent?  He borrows money from me and I rarely get it back.  He'll take me out to eat and then tell me to put that towards what he owes me.  I recently told him to just forget what he owes me and to get his finances in order.  He goes out to bars, drives hundreds of miles to visit friends, smokes, etc.  He is over 30 years-old and needs to learn to manage his money.  He'll spend money believing he can just borrow from friends and family if he runs dry.  He just broke up with his bf and wants to move back in with me.  I told him that wouldn't be good for our friendship.   

[madbrain]

tednlou,

Money, friends, and family often don't mix.  My friend moved here and I let him live with me.  He got a decent paying job--not awesome pay but still over 30k.  I told him his rent would be $300/mth which included a room, electricity, water, cable/internet, etc.  He thought that was too high.  He was thinking more like $100/mth.  I told him he must be crazy.  He believed we had to pay for cable and internet regardless of whether he was here.

Re: cable and internet, you could have made sure he didn't use the services if he wasn't willing to pay for them. There are good free options for TV reception (over the roof antenna, I get 50 free local digital channels 50 miles from SF this way), but it's not vital anyway.
But $100/month for boarding is just crazy. Maybe in a 3rd world country.

He always had excuses.  I couldn't figure out where all his money was going.  He only had a car payment of $400, car ins of $100, cell for $100, and the $300 for his rent.  He always claimed to be broke. 

Sounds like he wasn't very good with the money he had. $100 for his cell ? That' s as important to him as boarding ? You can get prepaid cells for way less, and - shudder - actually live without a cell phone.
Similar comment about the car payment - should a car cost 4x as much as housing payment ?  I hope it was for a new car. Depending on the area it can be quite hard to live without a car in the US unfortunately. I did it for 5 years, though. If it was for a used car he was probably paying some usurious rate.
And if he was constantly "broke" he may have been paying a fair chunk of money in bank fees such as overdraft, returned checks, etc. If he still had a bank account. Maybe he owed to the loan shark (payday loans ?). Or perhaps he had some costly addictions you didn't know about ?

He'll take me out to eat and then tell me to put that towards what he owes me. 

I sure hope that food tastes good ! What a loser.

I recently told him to just forget what he owes me and to get his finances in order.  He goes out to bars, drives hundreds of miles to visit friends, smokes, etc.  He is over 30 years-old and needs to learn to manage his money. 

Bingo, booze and smoke can be very costly addictions.

[mecch]

May I thank everyone for their support and helpful suggestions.  I was feeling bad all weekend, though I tried to divert my thoughts.  Now that I made other plans for xmas I feel good that I'm not letting someone control me or manipulate me.
Oh there has been a misunderstanding - my shrink (psychiatrist) did not advise me to steal, she said what Ann said, to admire a piece in his home and say how much I'd like to have it and offer to exchange it for the loan.  She doesn't think I can do anything to get the money, it will come when if ever my friend is good and ready.  But she thought since he's such a pretentious grandee, he might enjoy giving some valuable object.

The guy has a problem with money. When he is loaded, he's a big spender and generous. First on himself and then everyone else. When there's enough money, then he gets for himself, and enough for his family.  When there is very little money, he gets for himself, and nothing significant for anyone else - the bare bones.  Budget food for his family.  Cheap or regifted presents, if any. etc etc.   He's a big baby this way.  

Live and learn....

[allanq]

My worst experience in lending money was when I loaned a friend $1000. He drew up a written agreement saying that he would pay me back at $50/month. He sent me his first repayment check and it bounced. He sent another check, which also bounced. So in addition to not getting repaid, I was incurring fees from my bank for depositing bad checks. I wrote to the friend asking him to send future payments in cash or by certified check or money order. I never heard from him again.

[BT65]

If a friend asks to borrow money, and I have it, I guess I'd give it without expecting to get paid back.   It happens that I don't have big money to lend (anything over $100), so I guess I wouldn't be out that much.

I have a friend who makes a pretty good living who has paid bills for friends before (cell phone, electric etc.).  She said she does it as a gift, and never expects repayment. 

[hope_for_a_cure]

I fell for it once and NEVER again. 

The man that I was in love with at the time needed money and I lent some to him.  He did pay a small fraction of it back but blatantly told me that since I knew something about the stock market, to take the money and invest it so that I could 'earn' it back.  It was about two weeks after I lent him money that he wanted to terminate the relationship.  That was a hard lesson for me to learn but I learned it well and very quickly.  No more loans, but if I have extra cash and somebody truly needs help, I will give some to them. 

 

[Jeff G]

I have learned the hard way never lend money to anyone unless you can live and deal with the fact you may not get it back . When I lend money to a friend I tell them up front I'm not going to badger them to get it back , if they don't pay up I wont lend again . 

I once had to tell a buddy a loan was forgiven , I did it for me , not him .

Had I not forgave him meant to lose a friendship , in this particular case my friendship was more important than the money .   

[tednlou2]

My friend I talked about called last night and said he was coming over, and asked what we were having for dinner.  I said we were ordering Chinese.  He gave me his order and said he would pay me.  Well, he never did.  He said he didn't feel like driving home and wanted to stay here.  This morning, I woke up to a God awful smell.  It was the obvious smell of a really bad bowel movement.  I asked him why he used my bathroom. I felt he must have used my bathroom, because it was so awful.  He said he used the bathroom upstairs.  That was one bad shit to come all the way downstairs and wake me up.  Then, after he left for work, I found he left the cereal box wide open and left the milk out.  Total laziness and disrespect!  I know cereal and milk are no more than $6, but I told him he better stop and buy new ones on his way home and drop them off here.  I'm still waiting.   

[MitchMiller]

If you don't want to lend a friend $$$, HIV to the rescue. 

One advantage (about the only) of being HIV+ is that you can always use the excuse that the meds you take are soooo expensive and you have absolutely no extra funds.  To run short is a matter of life and death.  Usually that will end the discussion.

[roy100]

As a matter of policy I don't lend any money to anyone, period. !
If a give money to somebody I care about I consider it a gift, and tell them its a loan, and feel lucky if they return the money.
Never in my mind would I loan my credit card, or if it would stop me from doing things formyself that are a necessity.
To reach to this decision I had to learn the bad way !
Just forget about  and write if off as a friend , and if you see him , tell him to pay you back, if he does or partiallye does, then its a gift to you.
Greetings. Roy

[mecch]

If you don't want to lend a friend $$$, HIV to the rescue. 

One advantage (about the only) of being HIV+ is that you can always use the excuse that the meds you take are soooo expensive and you have absolutely no extra funds.  To run short is a matter of life and death.  Usually that will end the discussion.

Thats funny.  But for one, it doesn't have any logic (thank god!) in a country with universal health insurance! And two, I don't think HIV should ever be used to dishonestly (saying its why you don't have money that you have).  Honesty is the best policy.

My friend uses all sorts of emotional arguments to get his way or excuse bad behaviors and I think its all ridiculous and immature.  The last time someone tried emotion-based guilt or blackmail, I fell for it and paid a huge price. 

I think I would rather someone say - yeah, I just screwed you over - tough shit, sucker.  Than use a million emotional manipulative excuses to excuse bad behavior. 

[Hoover]

We have a neighbor who was always collecting money for the church and school, but I doubt if either got any or all of it from her. As I only caught 75% of what she said in Spanish, I did it to be neighborly.
One day she pulled up her shirt to show me a scar from an old surgery then told me she needed money to pay the doctor. Costa Rica is also a country with socialist health care where I know she pays nothing.
I told her "no." She never came back for any more money.
We don't mind being screwed a little, but sometimes enough is enough.

Hoover