How do you deal with Bug Chasers?

[hotpuppy]

Okay... first let me start by requesting that this not turn into a flame war, or a moral declaration.

I'm interested in finding out how others feel when someone approaches them and asks for HIV.  I'm very confounded and confused by it.

I've had this happen several times, the most recent being today.  Sometimes it's online, sometimes its in person.

Part of this is my need to vent, and I'm also curious how other poz folks deal with this.  Is this a gay thing? or does it happen in the straight world?

I tried talking some sense into the first one.  I did a little of that tonite with this one.  It didn't seem to work.

I told the guy to be careful what he wished for, and that he would eventually succeed in catching HIV if he tried and kept barebacking at bathhouses.  I asked him how old he was (28), and why?  I told him to be sure to get tested regularly so he could start treatment once he was poz.  I told him about poz.com and told him that the town he was from (Jacksonville, FL) wasn't exactly the center of the universe and that he'd need all the support he could get.  He didn't really have a good reason.  Of course he was "partying" with Tina (aka Crystal).  I told him he needed to get sober once he was poz... it would be the difference between a short life and a long one.  I explained that meth screws the body up and makes it easy for HIV to destroy the body.

None of this seemed to curb his desire for unsafe sex, which I refused to engage in.  I mean it's one thing to bareback with another poz guy.... but someone who doesn't know or is neg is another story. 

I asked him why, and he told me he used to play safe and that the condoms hurt his ass.  I nodded.  he went on to tell me that he tried it bare and really liked it and wasn't going back.  He said he hadn't been barebacking long.  However his definition of "not long" was 15 or 20 guys in the last few months.

What the hell is wrong with these guys?  How do you go from safe sex to actively trying to catch HIV?  WTF? 

Is it a self-esteem issue? 

He went on to complain to me that he had tried to sleep with 10 guys tonite...... and that none of them would bareback him.  Ugh.  I guess he's not bright enough to just lie and say he's poz....

Anyhow.  I felt sorry for him and yet I couldn't figure out how to get his attention and make him realize the consequences of what he was engaging in.  I see the same thing in Houston, and Dallas, and on Craigslist, and Manhunt.  Of course, sometimes they are just going "neg/clean ub2 bareback only" yea right stupidasses.  That isn't as bad as someone saying "fuck me bare and give me hiv" ugh!  Sorry I just have to vent a little.  I don't understand why someone would do that. 

Has anyone else had someone flat out ask for it?  What did you say?  Is there any reasoning with them?

I told him he probably couldn't catch my bug anyhow because I was undetectable.  He seemed to lose interest at that point.  Although I did point out that some versions of HIV are resitant to certain drugs.

I had the feeling the whole time like I was talking to someone who was going to jump off a bridge.  No matter what I said he kept saying, "Yea but I want to jump." and yet I was already falling in a sense.  I'm there, I know what it's like to take 3 pills every single day.... Of course some of you have done this for far longer than me and I respect you and don't want to take away from what you have accomplished.  I just mean that living with HIV isn't as easy as living without it and I can't for the life of me understand why someone would WANT it.

What can I say to someone like this that will make them think twice?  I know it's not my problem, but dammit I'm one of those that looks mean on the outside and actually gives a damn.  I own a cat because it was stray and living under my house and starving.... I felt sorry for it.  Damn thing owns my house practically now.  lol.  I love her anyway.  Actually, the cat has taught me more about men and relationships than anything else I've ever studied.

I thought about giving him my number so he'd have someone to talk to when the reality set in of what HIV means.  I didn't do it though.  I mean it's not really my problem, I just hate the thought of seeing someone do something incredibly self destructive, knowing that they will be bewildered, depressed, and scared when the diagnosis finally comes and lands in their lap like a ton of bricks.  It would be easier if I didn't give a damn, but I do.  Even about people I don't really know.  Especially when they are cute.

It's a struggle when you are horny and some really hot guy is asking for sex and telling you he wants it bare (which is hotter) and doesn't care if he catches your HIV.  It bothers me to think about it and realize that I'm not totally sure I would do the right thing.  The only way to resist the temptation is to disclose and avoid the situation.  I'd hate to date an HIV neg guy and have him become a bug chaser.  I'd hate it more to know that I gave HIV to someone I cared about. 

What is wrong with our prevention messages that guys in their mid to late 20's are jumping off the safe sex bridge?  What do they think they are missing by being neg?  Has this happened to you? 

I look forward to hearing about your experiences.   Some of this is venting, but I also am really bothered by it.

[MitchMiller]

I think most guys are not aware of the side-effects of the meds and that HIV may have a lot of long term medical consequences even when taking HIV meds. ... in addition to the cost of meds, the issues with insurance and employment, overseas travel, working overseas, etc.  Given the guy was high, it's hard to talk sense to him, but you might have tried getting his email... and start sending him a few pics of guys w/severe lipo and see if that might scare some sense into him. 
Many gay men have been lulled into a false sense of what HIV is after being bombarded by HIV drug ads featuring body builders, mountain climbers, beach parties, etc.   From 1996 until I left NYC, every weekend I would pick up a party mag and see these ads.  I was marveling at how HIV was so treatable.. and that surely with such good treatments, a cure must be right around the corner.  Not such a hard leap of faith to make.
Your bug chaser seems to be a sex addict and wants to just become POZ so he can get hopefully get more bareback sex... probably not realizing the possible consequences of HIV and HIV treatments.

[Miss Philicia]

You may be interested in this:

http://www.amazon.com/Without-Condoms-Unprotected-Sex-Barebacking/dp/0415950244

I chalk it all up to depression and social alienation.  As far as getting many of these guys into appropriate therapy -- good luck.

[mecch]

A "Bug chaser" is someone who as decided he/(she?) wants to be infected with HIV.

This is not exactly the same as someone who wants unprotected sex.  However, the latter is at risk, and if he is AWARE of his risk of contracting HIV, you could say he is a "bug chaser" but not exactly.

I think the definitions are slippery and I also think there are many reasons gay guys, for example, might bareback and still not be, technically, bug chasers.

As to decided "bug chasers" i suggest a pithy, brief exchange, and then ignore them. 

As to barebackers, if you think someone is barebacking out of naivité, ignorance, self-hatred and you feel a dialogue might help, by all means go for it. If he just wants bareback and has NO cognitive dissonance about it, or refused to examine his own contradictions, then don't waste your time.

   

[RapidRod]

A "Bug chaser" is someone who as decided he/(she?) wants to be infected with HIV.

This is not exactly the same as someone who wants unprotected sex.  However, the latter is at risk, and if he is AWARE of his risk of contracting HIV, you could say he is a "bug chaser" but not exactly.

I think the definitions are slippery and I also think there are many reasons gay guys, for example, might bareback and still not be, technically, bug chasers.

As to decided "bug chasers" i suggest a pithy, brief exchange, and then ignore them. 

As to barebackers, if you think someone is barebacking out of naivité, ignorance, self-hatred and you feel a dialogue might help, by all means go for it. If he just wants bareback and has NO cognitive dissonance about it, or refused to examine his own contradictions, then don't waste your time.

   

This is 2009, anyone that is negative and wants to have unprotected anal or vaginal sex with anyone that is positive is a "Bug Chaser."

[hotpuppy]

I think there are a few distinctions to make:
1) Someone who is hiv neg, and aware of the risk and dating a HIV poz person and practicing safe sex is not a "bug chaser".  Even if they slip up once in a while and do something risky... they are still not a bug chaser.

2) Someone who has their head in the sand, and thinks all the hot guys in the bathhouse are hiv neg (rofl) and that you can't catch HIV.... is stupid... not a bug chaser.  Provided they do not WANT HIV, even if their behavior says otherwise.  They are just stupid and unenlightened.  A product of failed government policies more than anything else.

3) Someone who is HIV negative and wants to have bareback sex, but takes some steps to serosort and does not want HIV ..... still not a bug chaser.  I was in this category, and I was wrong and now I have HIV.  Yes Dorothy, even in Kansas bad things happen.  lol.

4) Finally we arrive at someone who is HIV neg and TRYING to catch HIV. 

I can understand and rationalize the first 3.  I'm puzzled by the 4th.  I just don't understand why someone would want HIV.  I can't help but think of all the people who slipped up once and became poz.  Yet, here is some person who is out there actively trying to catch it?  WTF? 

Does anything work to talk sense into them? 

Yea, I thought about giving him my email, but he didn't have internet access.  Strange how people's priorities are ordered.  You have money for driving 2 hours to the bathhouse, crystal meth, but no internet. 

On the bright side... I jumped right through disclosure without hesitation.  Sometimes disclosure can be a difficult thing.  He was like "Do you bareback?"  To which I replied honestly, "I like both bare and safe.  What is your status, meaning HIV status?"  He said, " I don't know."  I replied, "Okay, I'm HIV Positive so we should play safe."

Anyhow.  I wanted to tell him, okay here is a checklist of things you need to do before you test poz.

1) Health Insurance
2) Quit meth.
3) Support network,  you'll need a friend or three for when times are rough.
4) Prepare for your friends to alienate your butt
5) Be ready to have guys flat out dump you when they find out you are poz.
6) Hope you enjoy bloodwork, the doctor's office, and getting a shot or two.

Anything I left off?

I did tell him that meth would run his body down and kill him if he was HIV poz.  I told him that doing meth with HIV he had 5 years, and HIV with treatment and no drug abuse was 40.  Maybe an exaggeration, but it got my point across which was that Meth+HIV=FATAL.  Everyone I know that tweaks and is poz (and they usually wind up poz) goes downhill fast compared to guys who get clean, get meds, and have a desire to live and work hard for it.

I just have a hard time understanding it.  I mean who in their right mind would wake up and go, "Gee I want diabetes today.  Doc, I'll take type 2 with a side of insulin please." 

And that's just it.   How do you get to the wrong frame of mind where you actively try to get HIV. 

I could rationalize it if it wasn't random, let's see what I can catch, cumwhore behavior.  I mean, if the guy was Neg and dating me and had some sort of issue with condoms as a barrier.  I could see where he might try to catch it as a way to get closer or eliminate the barrier.  I think it's remotely comperable to when women sometimes quit birth control to become pregnant, thinking it will bring them closer to the man they are in love with.  Which, btw the neg guy doing something deliberate to catch HIV is one of my fears about dating a neg guy.  It would still ultimately be my fault if I allowed something to happen that caused my bf to become poz.  That would bother me.

This whole topic bothers me. 

[mecch]

This is 2009, anyone that is negative and wants to have unprotected anal or vaginal sex with anyone that is positive is a "Bug Chaser."

Psychologists and sociologists have researched the bug chasing and barebacking phenomena. They use established scientific methods of their professions.  Since this Forum also encourages respect for method and peer review, I suggest with due respect that you read a bit what they have to say. These issues are not cut and dry.  
wiki can direct you to some research:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bugchasing_and_giftgiving
this summary directs to some research: http://asap.ap.org/stories/644566.s

That said, you have a right to your opinion.

[RapidRod]

Psychologists and sociologists have researched the bug chasing and barebacking phenomena. They use established scientific methods of their professions.  Since this Forum also encourages respect for method and peer review, I suggest with due respect that you read a bit what they have to say. These issues are not cut and dry.  
wiki can direct you to some research:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bugchasing_and_giftgiving
this summary directs to some research: http://asap.ap.org/stories/644566.s

That said, you have a right to your opinion.

This is 2009, anyone that is negative and wants to have unprotected anal or vaginal sex with anyone that is positive is a "Bug Chaser." We are not talking those wanting to have a child and are under a doctors care.

Stupid? That would be an understatement.

[BlueMoon]

I don't moralize, just tell them that I'm not interested in passing on the virus and ignore them after that.  I know I'm not going to talk anyone out of anything, but I don't have to be a part of it.

The same goes for the guys who claim to be negative in their profiles but admit to being poz in emails.  I don't want to be around anyone that sleazy.  

[mecch]

4) Finally we arrive at someone who is HIV neg and TRYING to catch HIV. 

I can understand and rationalize the first 3.  I'm puzzled by the 4th.  I just don't understand why someone would want HIV. 
............
This whole topic bothers me. 

Yes 4) is the definition that I think is commonly given for a "bug chaser".  Chasing the virus to "catch" it.

The research and surveys have found several justifications chasers give for their decisions and behaviors.  

Don't be so naive, hotpuppy.  People are twisted.  Look at Peter's blog post about Maggiore's death and all the vitriol from BOTH camps - HIV denialists and mainstream.  

Why is it so hard to accept that the human spirit and psyche varies so greatly?

(How the hell did the Holocaust happen, after the brilliance liberalism of Weimar Germany??? I just watched Paragraph 175 - harrowing documentary about the Nazi persecution of homosexuals)

I think you're doing the right thing, trying to talk sense into people, it's generous of you, too.  Perhaps grow some thicker skin and drop the naivete and "do-gooding responsible boy" discourse, which borders on Florence Nightingale even if it comes from a good heart.  

People are strange - Jim Morrison

really really strange sometimes.
dangerous sometimes

Protect yourself from dangerous people.

[mecch]

Rapid, I agree with definition 4), given by texan, for "bug chaser".

If you are willing not to lump all barebackers into the "bug chasers" category then I agree with you, too.

[hotpuppy]

http://www.rollingstone.com/news/story/5939950/bug_chasers

Interesting story on this subject.  I had already found and added "Gift Giver" to my movie list on Netflix.... now I'll move it up the list so I can watch it.

I'm not naive, and I apologize if my post comes across that way.  Yes, I have a urge to do good things from time to time. 

In a way, I see helping one of these people who has come across my path like what happened last summer.  It was a blistering hot Texas summer day.  Probably 95 out with 90% humidity.  The kind of day that makes you realize that God (whichever God(s/esses) you worship is fine here) loves you and the proof is that he(she/they) created air conditioning.  I was driving from Wal-Mart with some mechanical goodies for my sailboat.  I always take the back road because the BMW driving yoyos get on my nerves and it's a bit shorter then going through the 3 most congested intersections in Kemah.  As I came around the curve behind Home Depot I spotted something in the road.  I slowed down, and stopped.  In front of me was a big snapping turtle taking it's time across the road.  I put the truck in park and did the right thing.  I got out and gently nudged it off the road with my foot.  As I was doing so, someone in a fancy car pulled up behind me and shot me an annoyed look.  As they drove around, they realized what I was doing and smiled.  For me, knowing that I made a difference where I didn't have to, didn't need to, and when nobody was watching.... that made me feel good.

I guess mostly this is about venting.  I wouldn't wish HIV on someone, regardless of how much I disagreed or disliked them.  Although, I might wish that they get what they have coming alot sooner.  lol, that's another thread.

Normally, I'm not bothered by stupid behavior to this level.  I mean I see plenty of it.  I just wasn't prepared for this really, amazingly hot guy, to flat out ask for HIV.  I was shocked.  Yes, I could disengage and walk off.  I suppose for myself that is the easiest thing to do.

Unfortunately, as fate has it, I was born a Yankee and raised by two of them.  You know, they say you can take the Yankee out of New England, but you can't take New England out of the Yankee.  Consequently, intense debate, standing up for what you believe in, and calling it like you see it are core values I hold near and dear.  Doing the right thing is also important.  It would be easier if I had "used car morals" and could just do what was in my best interests all of the time, even at the expense of others.  I don't.  I'm by no means a doormat..... I just believe we have a moral and ethical responsibility to help others.

This isn't the first time I've run into one of these guys..... it's just the first time it happened in person.  Normally online, I either reason with them a bit or shut them down and move on.  I guess it's just different in person and I didn't expect someone to stand in front of me and after being told I was poz and establishing that they were unsure/neg be asked for HIV.  I guess in a sense I felt like he was saying "kill me."

I encourage the many active minds not to read to deep into what I'm writing here...... Just read what's written and don't make intuitive leaps.  I say what I mean and I write what I intend to say.  I'm very blunt.  I often say that the only thing certain in life is death.  Every living thing will die at some point.  I just find it strange for someone to ask for something that has a high probability of contributing their death.  Maybe that's why I don't smoke, do recreational drugs, or drink.

[/end rant][/end vent]

[mecch]

http://www.rollingstone.com/news/story/5939950/bug_chasers

Interesting story on this subject.  I had already found and added "Gift Giver" to my movie list on Netflix.... now I'll move it up the list so I can watch it.
[/end rant][/end vent]

Puppy you really are very sweet.

By the way, that Rolling Stone article was controversial and widely discredited.

http://www.homosexissin.net/PORTAL/'Bug%20chaser.htm
http://www.mtv.com/onair/ffyr/protect/news_feature_04_11_03.jhtml
http://www.thebody.com/content/art32304.html

Beware of sensationalism and urban legends vis-a-vis "bug chasers" and, for that matter, "wanton" or "craven" slanted barebacker stories...  Such identities may exist but they are also used untruthfully to discredit or judge gays and gay sexuality.

Still, no doubt you did meet a bug chaser and a meth addict.  I daresay as you mention that some will roleplay this fantasy in virtual communication but might not be so eager when in the real situation.

[Moffie65]

Hey Puppy,

You've asked for opinions from more experienced HIV+'s, so here is mine.

"HOW DO YOU DEAL WITH BUG CHASERS?"

You DON'T.  Put a period and move on.

One can argue the pros and cons of "helping" this kind of human, but in the end, there are a plethora of reasons, mostly clinical, for a person to "sink" to this level, and pretty much anything you can think of to "help" a person like this is going to be useless.  They have gravitated to a point that mentally, they think nothing of themselves and are "using" you to achieve an end in their own minds that makes no sense, because the basis of that goal is founded on falshoods and fantasy.

Like I said, put a period and move on, there are tens of thousands of people one can help and really make a difference, so don't waste your time, you cannot save the whole world.

[Miss Philicia]

I totally agree with Daddy Tim's last post.  This is a clinical issue, and AT MOST what you should do is provide the name/address/phone number of a therapist experienced with this issue. 

If you have to post a thread on the internet on the issue then you don't have the experience to provide therapy sessions for the afflicted.  The underlying issues are simply too complex.  Anyway, they're most likely already infected with HIV by the time you're talking to them.  20 loads of hot cum up your raw ass at the bath house during a month tends to do that.

[denb45]

I've heard of the term "Bug Chaser" but I have NEVER met anyone who wants to knowingly have sex with someone that is HIV+ and they are NEG, so to me, that term, has to be VERY REAR kinda like the HIV super infection............most self-respecting people I have met don't want anything to even do with a HIV+ person, and having unprotected sex with another POZ+ is outta the question, and all of the barebackers I've heard of, and some that I have known, were all Bottoms and, all POZ+ and the others may have been stoned-outta-their-mind high on METH, and just didn't give a dam about themselves are anyone else, and as for getting 20 loads of cum pumped up your ass, drugs will do that to your better judgment as well.....

[Ann]

most self-respecting people I have met don't want anything to even do with a HIV+ person,

Wow, if that's true, I feel sorry for you. I have plenty of self-respecting hiv negative friends and even a few self-respecting hiv negative friends who would love to get me into the sack - with condoms, of course. And yes, these self-respecting people know my hiv status. Everyone in my life does - and none are lacking in self-respect.

As for how one deals with bug-chasers, I agree with Moffie - you don't. Walk away. As for the ones who attempt to serosort with other negative people, those are the ones I'd try to educate.

Ann

[Miss Philicia]

What does "self-respecting" actually even mean?

[Ann]

What does "self-respecting" actually even mean?

According to Yourdictionary.com, self-respect means proper respect for oneself and one's worth as a person.

Self-respecting is an adjective used to describe a person with self-respect.

There's an interesting article on self-repect/self-esteem at http://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/pto-19991101-000033.html

[/end hijack]

Ann

[denb45]

Wow, if that's true, I feel sorry for you. I have plenty of self-respecting hiv negative friends and even a few self-respecting hiv negative friends who would love to get me into the sack - with condoms, of course. And yes, these self-respecting people know my hiv status. Everyone in my life does - and none are lacking in self-respect.

As for how one deals with bug-chasers, I agree with Moffie - you don't. Walk away. As for the ones who attempt to serosort with other negative people, those are the ones I'd try to educate.

Ann

Yeah, but you don't live the southwestern US Bible-Belt like I do, it depends on what part of the country you live in, here in the US, the atitudes about Sex, HIV/AIDS, are a lot different where I live
most here where i live won't even acknowledges their own sexually. let alone, their HIV or Gay Status
This Town (Albuquerque, NM) is a lot different than where I grew up in ( Sacramento, Ca) and after 7 yrs of living here, ( since 2001) I'm still in somewhat of a culture-shock (meaning this place just didn't have a lot of men of color , like myself) I've never been much of a country-bumpkin, I tend to be more urban    but, I don't worry about others here in this place, I have my own shit to deal with, and that's enough for me.......it's less stressfull that way for me  I only moved here cause, I hated paying Higher Rents, it's very cheap to live here ( Rental Wise)  why live in a area where you have to throw almost half of your income down a shit hole just on Rent....sorry for the highjack and my endless RANTS

[GSOgymrat]

I'm interested in finding out how others feel when someone approaches them and asks for HIV.  I'm very confounded and confused by it.

I've had this happen several times, the most recent being today.

Where do you find these freaks?

[denb45]

Where do you find these freaks?

Now that seem to be the burning Question, I'd like to know that one my self..........

[Miss Philicia]

I'd assume on-line and/or a bath house/sex club type setting.  Not that hard to imagine.  Don't you girls get out of the house?

[Moffie65]

I'd assume on-line and/or a bath house/sex club type setting.  Not that hard to imagine.  Don't you girls get out of the house?

I have located a sex club here that welcomes anyone, HIV+ especially.  Yes, right here, 17 miles from Tombstone, and that just tells me the internet is what is causing this type of activity to spread so rapidly.  However, it is still the people that are drawn to that type of self destructive behavior, who are going to respond to such garbage.  Come in cowboy outfit and get in free.

No Philicia, I don't particularly like leaving my comfortable home and go to some strange place, full of people I don't know.  Doesn't work like it used to when I lived in San Francisco.  I guess settling has it's benefits.


Denb, you need to get out and enjoy Central, which is very much like Noe Valley in San Francisco than you might have thought.  Our experiences in Albq, were not often, but fun.  VA excepted.

Ann, Den innocently of course, used self-respecting in his post.  I enjoyed the oxymoron it represents in this thread.  Self respect and honor, are at the crux of the "bug chaser" phenominon.

[sharkdiver]

Hey hotpuppy

I once had someone email me back defending his Gift Giver behavior after I confronted him. It was like reading a letter from a serial killer; very creepy.   I'll fwd it to you if you'd like as I dare not post it here.

[Moffie65]

Gift Giver,  Oh wow, that opens up a whole new psychosis.  Now were talking arrogance, hatred, anger, and who knows what all.  This is a type that has been active since the beginning of the pandemic I think.  I remember hearing Gift Giver in the early eighties, in reference to some who were going around aggressively spreading the bug.  Not nice these types.

[denb45]

I'd assume on-line and/or a bath house/sex club type setting.  Not that hard to imagine.  Don't you girls get out of the house?

Hunnie the last time I went to a bathhouse was back in 1979-80....I think , before the State Dept. of health closed them all down........sweetie, I'm an old fart I'm 52 hunnie 

[BlueMoon]

Bug chasers are real alright, or at least guys who claim to be.  I wonder if a lot of it is D & S-type role-play, where the chaser knows or suspects he's HIV+ but wants to play a game of submission.  Maybe something like a rape fantasy. 

Maybe for some it's a fertility fetish, which would explain why requests for "The Gift" usually include the words "breed" and "seed". 

[jcmiami]

I never had that happen but it were to happen to me, i would simply say "sorry but I won't do it." I would leave it at that. This guy was apparently high and you cannot rationalize with someone irrational! I know there have been quite a few studies on this "bug chaser/gift giver" syndrome but, again, if you have someone in front of you asking to "get it" you are not going to sit there and analyze the man! Also, for you own conscious, you don't not want any guilt of giving it to someone. Just my 2 cents!

[BlueMoon]

Also, for you own conscious, you don't not want any guilt of giving it to someone. Just my 2 cents!

I wouldn't want to risk criminal charges later, either.

[denb45]

Bug chasers are real alright, or at least guys who claim to be.  I wonder if a lot of it is D & S-type role-play, where the chaser knows or suspects he's HIV+ but wants to play a game of submission.  Maybe something like a rape fantasy. 

Maybe for some it's a fertility fetish, which would explain why requests for "The Gift" usually include the words "breed" and "seed". 

I can't Imagine any one who would want HIV/AIDS (who's not Positive) via Role-Play, fetish Breed or Seed or whatever means, now I do know many guys that are POZ+ that like to be Breeded and Seeded, so to speak, but like I said early on in this Thread, they are already POZ+ and are Total Bottom Sex Pigs , now if they became POZ+ due to this, that is only something they would know for sure.........

[Buckmark]

Where do you find these freaks?

I'm wondering the same thing.  I've been positive for about 20 years, and have yet to actually meet or have any interaction with a bug chaser.  I do believe they exist, somewhere.  I think I just lead an exceeding boring life.

Regards,

Henry

[denb45]

I'm wondering the same thing.  I've been positive for about 20 years, and have yet to actually meet or have any interaction with a bug chaser.  I do believe they exist, somewhere.  I think I just lead an exceeding boring life.

Regards,

Henry

Bug Chasers all seem to be somewhat of an Urban-myth , you know, someone that knows someone, that has heard, but has never had sex with one, are even seen one........to the best of my knowledge, I've never had sex with a known Bug Chaser, if I did, after he was seeded, he never told me he was
a Bug Chaser, I'm not real sure just how I would have handled this  I suppose I would take him to go get some Peep-Meds.............dunno 

[Miss Philicia]

Go register a user name at bugshare.net and spend an evening getting grossed out.

[hotpuppy]

I appreciate everyone's input and thoughts.  It's always interesting to see the diversity of attitudes, lifestyles, and beliefs.

I'm done with this topic and plan to move on.  It has reinforced my motivation to work on prevention/awareness. 

[randym431]

Why “are” there bug chasers, I wonder?
I don’t know.
Maybe some sort of thrill walking a thin line?
Some sort of mindset where they feel they have figured life out, or feel
immortal and immune to consequences,.
Maybe some sort of depression issue. Low self esteem?

In the same tone, why does a smoker that has had strokes, heart attacks, or cancers still
continue to smoke?
Why does a race car driver or any other highly dangerous sport partaker keep at it?
Especially after experiencing life threatening injuries?
Like "I'm Gay, and I am going to experience Gay life to its unprotected fullness, even if
it kills me".

How about the need to hurt someone they are close to, by throwing care to the wind?
Like driving down a road at high speed, considering crossing the white line into a head on collision, thinking "that will show them" (a loved one they feel hurt by).

Of all the wondering, I'd doubt if it’s simply a desire in wanting to become positive just for the sake of getting sick.
It has to be some sort of depression, a detachment from reality, grouse misjudgment, getting even thing, or thrill seeking by playing with fate.

If someone in a bar for example, looked very sick and unhealthy, and others knew they were positive, I doubt anyone would seek them out for unsafe sex.
There would have to be a sexual desire in addition to some hiv chasing desire…?
Who knows? Maybe they just want some complication in their boring life.
Hiv, meds, routine doctor visits and the unknown would sure fill that bill.

Or... how about two romantically involved people, one hiv pos and the other neg, wanting to share the experience with their loved one to feel closer. Bonded.
Possibly the positive person would never risk the other becoming positive,
so that neg person seeks out another positive person to achieve their goal.

With today’s meds giving positive people much hope at a near normal life,
I simply believe a lot of guys just feel ok with taking a risk. Especially when the old
sex hormone wins out over good judgment. You know, when that "other" head
takes over making the decisions.

There are plenty of ruined marriages, ruined political careers as well as ruined celebrity careers just because the old horny bug took over. Why would poor judgment concerning some health risk be any different? (Well maybe that is different, thats talking horny, not chasers. A thought, but off track.)

Which brings it back to bug chasers. What does it say about someone positive who doesn’t mind granting that chasers wish? Now that to me is a much more disturbing issue. And sadly there is a lot more of that kind around than you might think.

[OneTampa]

First off: Please note that many different "bugs" (not just HIV) have a great sense of direction, are world travelers and great at hitching rides.  Meaning, that bug chaser can escort and drop off  an unwelcome boarder to take up residence in your body as well and compromise all the hard work you put in to maintain your health as an HIV+ survivor.

Second and finally: These bug chasing people have some deep issues and need help (as noted in previous posts to this thread). You are right to refuse to be an accessory.   

Take care.

[denb45]

Go register a user name at bugshare.net and spend an evening getting grossed out.

I see nothing wrong with Breeding & Seeding a POZ+ guy's nice ass, that's into it, nothing gross about that to me....risky for STD's YES, can I and my POZ+ sex partner get HIV, NO we already have it, is there any change of Drug Resistance ....maybe, but where is the proof of that form the CDC, I've never seen any

[Miss Philicia]

I'm not sure what that has to do with what I wrote unless you care to explain it.

[denb45]

I'm not sure what that has to do with what I wrote unless you care to explain it.

If you mean bug chasers are gross ( someone that's want to get infected by another POZ+) then YES, that's a little unsettling to me, that bug share website (someone who wants HIV/AIDS has to have some serious mental issues) but if your already POZ+ and like unprotected sex with other Pozzies, then no.....is what I meant 

[bimazek]

when u wrote this part......."I had the feeling the whole time like I was talking to someone who was going to jump off a bridge.  No matter what I said he kept saying, "Yea but I want to jump." "

i think you hit the nail on the head, first there is a very large group of gays and even larger group of young gays who are suicidal (alcohol, cigs, poppers, bug chasing) because they had one identity ==  st8t and going to marry and have kids and then one day wake up to a new identity and they cannot accept it so it is really a mental problem of coming out of closet and being honest etc

but also there is a pull toward death for every human, and if you think it is not true i can explain in detail, death is a reconnection with something bigger and universal and it has an attraction , esp. for those who have altered minds from drugs

also ask yourself why you care so much about helping this person, why no just walk away like the majority does in 3rd world india with the poor etc, perhaps you feel you must help and it is part of your denial of your own status,  eg  if i help him then i help myself somehow

in any case, death is always very very close from moment of birth

also in the sexually excited state of the mind, turned on so to speak, many things get warped and esp. when on meth,

just think how different a person looks after the sex the next morning than before

there are many complex issues here

i mean in 1984 the gays in SF were screaming and demanding the baths not be shut so that thier lifestyle would not be stopped even though thousands got infected there and public health wanted to shut them

why was there a blood donation center in the castro from 1975 to 1989 taking tainted blood from gays who were supporting themselves and their drug habits and dancing all night and sleeping with thousands and going to give blood to get money to live

greed, lack of love, bad decisions --- they rise endlessly in human mind according to buddah

compassion for the weakness of humans

is called for

but  this is a big big topic

with

why does christian societies "help" gays who have hiv but not too much not enough so that they can have safe loved filled lives but just enough to keep them on edge of homelessness

big questions of human kind

why are we treating and not capturing and forcing into rehab prisions every hiv poz person who tests poz for meth???  to save themselves and society

why are there no dog catchers in cities anymore

why is sexual aggrevated assault a big crime in most states

why is someone who willfully smokes every day and kills themselves and those around them allowed but

we who made one mistake

have a life of hell and shame and such

one way ticket to hell, but i dont even believe in hell

why do we have such a high opinion of human kind when so much is

greed evil, hate, killing

taking advantage of others

why is it ok

[komnaes]

Were you drunk or high on something when you wrote this bimazek? This is the most confused piece of rambling mixed with half truths that I have ever seen here..

There are not so many complex issues as you have claimed.. IF only you could get the facts right.

Whether closing bath houses is a good way to help stop the spreading of AIDS is very contentious. The fact is San Francisco has outlawed them, and they are quickly replaced with sex clubs that are even more raunchy. Now there are many safe sex campaigns being launched inside saunas that are effective - so, what would you rather do as a policy makers? Shut everything down so you drive us to parks, toilets etc, so at least have us concentrated in a relatively neat and safe environment where you can do education and last minute persuasion?

And about that blood donation center, I demand proofs.

And for the rest of your statements bordering on psychopathic about locking up HIVers addicted to meth.. I wouldn't even respond to give it credibility, which has none to start with. And may I suggest you seek some counseling?

[bocker3]

.... because they had one identity ==  st8t and going to marry and have kids and then one day wake up to a new identity and they cannot accept it so it is really a mental problem of coming out of closet and being honest etc

There is so much wrong in your post that my head is spinning, but this bit stands out the most.

I don't know about you and I won't speak for others, but I sure as shit KNOW that I was never straight -- I didn't "wake up to a new identity", it was always there.  I may have tried to hide it and fight it (even slept with women because I wanted to "prove" that I wasn't gay), but I was gay as far back as I remember.

Please put a little more thought into your meandering posts.

Mike

[denb45]

Were you drunk or high on something when you wrote this bimazek? This is the most confused piece of rambling mixed with half truths that I have ever seen here..

There are not so many complex issues as you have claimed.. IF only you could get the facts right.

Whether closing bath houses is a good way to help stop the spreading of AIDS is very contentious. The fact is San Francisco has outlawed them, and they are quickly replaced with sex clubs that are even more raunchy. Now there are many safe sex campaigns being launched inside saunas that are effective - so, what would you rather do as a policy makers? Shut everything down so you drive us to parks, toilets etc, so at least have us concentrated in a relatively neat and safe environment where you can do education and last minute persuasion?

And about that blood donation center, I demand proofs.

And for the rest of your statements bordering on psychopathic about locking up HIVers addicted to meth.. I wouldn't even respond to give it credibility, which has none to start with. And may I suggest you seek some counseling?

I'm still trying to understand  bimazek  post, but I cannot  for some reason...what in the Hell was THAT!

[Miss Philicia]

If you mean bug chasers are gross ( someone that's want to get infected by another POZ+) then YES, that's a little unsettling to me, that bug share website (someone who wants HIV/AIDS has to have some serious mental issues) but if your already POZ+ and like unprotected sex with other Pozzies, then no.....is what I meant 

You obviously didn't register and spend a few hours on that web board.  I didn't get any more specific that that.  I could care less what to HIV+ people do together.

[denb45]

You obviously didn't register and spend a few hours on that web board.  I didn't get any more specific that that.  I could care less what to HIV+ people do together.

I didn't have to, the Name Bug-share was enough to not interest me........but whatever, to each his own!
no love lost Dear 

[anniebc]

Bimezek

Hopefully when you finally come to your senses and check your post you wll be able to see what you have written with a cler head and edit some of the nonsense you have written..and while you are at it maybe an apology to Hotpuppy for this little gem.

perhaps you feel you must help and it is part of your denial of your own status,  eg  if i help him then i help myself somehow

Jan

[Ann]

Bim,

Dog catchers? Fuck off.

Ann

[Moffie65]

For the record!

I was born Gay, and nothing in the straight world has changed that for the last 62 years!

When the Gay Baths were closed in San Francisco; the straight baths on Lombard and Oak street were left open, and I was welcomed there every visit.  Also, the Waterworks in Palo Alto, the Water Garden in San Jose, the Steamworks in Oakland all appreciated a rather large increase in business.   What does the closing of the baths have to do with the spread of HIV?  The Patio and backrooms of the bars were never closed either.  Listen, I don't even know why it is important for me to respond to that post, but for the clarity of history.

[Miss Philicia]

What does the closing of the baths have to do with the spread of HIV? 

Oh, I'd say about as much as the connection between gay suicide and poppers.

[denb45]

For the record!

I was born Gay, and nothing in the straight world has changed that for the last 62 years!

When the Gay Baths were closed in San Francisco were closed; the straight baths on Lombard and Oak street were left open, and I was welcomed there every visit.  Also, the Waterworks in Palo Alto, the Water Garden in San Jose, the Steamworks in Oakland all appreciated a rather large increase in business.   What does the closing of the baths have to do with the spread of HIV?  The Patio and backrooms of the bars were never closed either.  Listen, I don't even know why it is important for me to respond to that post, but for the clarity of history.

 Speaking of History.....The Gay Baths were closed down due to the backlash of HIV/AIDS only comming form GAYS.........our history and societies tend to close, shut-down, and demonize what they don't understand, and what scares the holy SHIT outta them, they always FEAR what they don't know, history is history, and sometimes it will repeat itself

[hotpuppy]

Bimezek
while you are at it maybe an apology to Hotpuppy for this little gem.

No apology needed.  I do what I do because I enjoy it, am required to, or find it in my best interests.  When I choose to help someone I do so in the hope that if the tables were turned, someone would be decent enough to help me.  While this philosophy isn't foolproof, it is an important value to me.  As a society, it's important to help others and respect others.  Many religions encourage these behaviors which create socially beneficial results.

Sometimes, it just feels good to do the right thing.  Like the time I moved a turtle out of the road.  Rest assured I would have run the turtle over if I had no choice.  I would not have allowed myself or my property to be compromised for the sake of an insignificant animal.  And yes, a snapping turtle in Kemah, Texas is insignificant.  Just as the occassional lizard or bird I rescue from my cat is insignificant.  I still rescue them because it makes me feel good.

The ability to empathize is thought to be one of the qualities unique to Humans.  I think empathy is the root of why we might do something for another person when there is no clear motive or reward.

Chances are that I will never, ever see that guy again.  He probably will not listen to me, even if it weren't already too late.  I suspect that it is too late for him.  It's not very hard to become poz at a bathhouse if you a) do drugs, b) lie a little, c) try. 

That said, the bathhouse is not the demon.  It's the person who chooses to have unsafe sex and desires to catch a disease.  That is the problem.

Guns don't kill people.  People kill people using bullets fired from guns.  A gun is simply a tool.

When it comes to safe sex, the baths do a wonderful job.  I don't know how you can be any clearer.  There are posters that encourage safe sex, free condoms, and lube is available for sale at the desk.  They put condoms in each "room."  I actually think the baths are probably safer than online hookups, parks, bookstores, backrooms, or sex parties.  I think we would probably have fewer HIV cases if more places were up front with messaging, testing, and condoms.

[Moffie65]

That said, the bathhouse is not the demon.  It's the person who chooses to have unsafe sex and desires to catch a disease.  That is the problem.

When it comes to safe sex, the baths do a wonderful job.  I don't know how you can be any clearer.  There are posters that encourage safe sex, free condoms, and lube is available for sale at the desk.  They put condoms in each "room."  I actually think the baths are probably safer than online hookups, parks, bookstores, backrooms, or sex parties.  I think we would probably have fewer HIV cases if more places were up front with messaging, testing, and condoms.

It is true that "out of the mouths of babes" come astonishing truths.  Puppy, you will do fine in the future, you are grounded far beyond your years.

[kajnjewel]

Hot Puppy:

I am responding to your original post and really haven't read through all of the other posts.  Please know that this is not just a gay thing that it happens in the straight world as well.

When I was dating early in my disease process I had straight men want to have sex without protection because they didn't care if they got it and some even wanted to get infected for various reasons.  I would always try to educate and inform them that they just thought they wanted to be HIV+.  Many would say "If I get infected, I'll just take the meds'."  I hear that statement even till this day when I go out to do HIV/AIDS 101 trainings.

The one that hurt the most was not long ago when I had a 16-yr-old ask me to donate some blood to him so he could inject it and become HIV+.  He said he had talked to alot of people that were HIV+ and they all seem to be happy and at peace with themselves and he wanted that as well.  I told him there were other ways to feel good about one self and it sounded like he needed some help from a therapist and gave him the 800 mental health number.

The way I feel about Bug Chasers is that they need to be educated about the woes of being HIV+ and encouraged to get help emotionally.  It is a time to educate and above all else not be one to help them spread this disease by granting them their wish.

[OneTampa]

Stay strong

Think outside the bun(s)*

Don't be an accessory



*And other body cavities.  Apologies to Burger King.

[David_CA]

I've had a couple of supposed bug chasers hit me up on Manhunt before.  One of them is already positive, I believe, and is just looking for BB sex.  For some reason, he thinks that 'breeding' him will appeal to some of us who are a bit more honest about our status.  The other guy is probably also positive but hasn't tested... you know, the old ignorance is bliss thing.  I always give them the same answer:  I'll give them 'the gift' if they really want it, but I won't share it.  They have to take it completely from me because I want no part of being HIV+.  If they can do that (make me negative by my infecting them), then we've got a deal.  Each time they just quit chatting with me, for some reason! 

Mostly, the guys who don't seem to care about having receptive BB sex with a positive guy have generally been positive and uncomfortable disclosing it or have 'seen the ads in magazines' and think that all is well in AIDS land and that a cure is either about to be discovered or has already been discovered.  Either way, I do what I can to help reduce the stigma of those who are afraid to disclose and educate those who are ignorant about HIV.

As for real bug chasers, there are cutters (people who cut themselves), people who burn their body with cigarettes, those who chop off body parts, some desire to be killed and eaten, etc.  Why is it such a stretch to believe that there would be people who want to be infected with HIV?

[manchesteruk]

when u wrote this part......."I had the feeling the whole time like I was talking to someone who was going to jump off a bridge.  No matter what I said he kept saying, "Yea but I want to jump." "

i think you hit the nail on the head, first there is a very large group of gays and even larger group of young gays who are suicidal (alcohol, cigs, poppers, bug chasing) because they had one identity ==  st8t and going to marry and have kids and then one day wake up to a new identity and they cannot accept it so it is really a mental problem of coming out of closet and being honest etc

but also there is a pull toward death for every human, and if you think it is not true i can explain in detail, death is a reconnection with something bigger and universal and it has an attraction , esp. for those who have altered minds from drugs

also ask yourself why you care so much about helping this person, why no just walk away like the majority does in 3rd world india with the poor etc, perhaps you feel you must help and it is part of your denial of your own status,  eg  if i help him then i help myself somehow

in any case, death is always very very close from moment of birth

also in the sexually excited state of the mind, turned on so to speak, many things get warped and esp. when on meth,

just think how different a person looks after the sex the next morning than before

there are many complex issues here

i mean in 1984 the gays in SF were screaming and demanding the baths not be shut so that thier lifestyle would not be stopped even though thousands got infected there and public health wanted to shut them

why was there a blood donation center in the castro from 1975 to 1989 taking tainted blood from gays who were supporting themselves and their drug habits and dancing all night and sleeping with thousands and going to give blood to get money to live

greed, lack of love, bad decisions --- they rise endlessly in human mind according to buddah

compassion for the weakness of humans

is called for

but  this is a big big topic

with

why does christian societies "help" gays who have hiv but not too much not enough so that they can have safe loved filled lives but just enough to keep them on edge of homelessness

big questions of human kind

why are we treating and not capturing and forcing into rehab prisions every hiv poz person who tests poz for meth???  to save themselves and society

why are there no dog catchers in cities anymore

why is sexual aggrevated assault a big crime in most states

why is someone who willfully smokes every day and kills themselves and those around them allowed but

we who made one mistake

have a life of hell and shame and such

one way ticket to hell, but i dont even believe in hell

why do we have such a high opinion of human kind when so much is

greed evil, hate, killing

taking advantage of others

why is it ok

This is one of the worst posts I think I've ever read on this forum.

[mecch]

This is one of the worst posts I think I've ever read on this forum.

Rambling and a bit of a hijack but has some good points if you patiently get into the mindset.

[manchesteruk]

Rambling and a bit of a hijack but has some good points if you patiently get into the mindset.

I agree with some of sentiment but most of it is uninformed bollocks!

[Miss Philicia]

get into the mindset.

Is psychosis contagious?

[mecch]

I consider that post to represent a particularly expansive and highly individualised quasi-buddhist philosophical take on such matters.  but hardly psychotic. 

If we more or less agree with this post:
"As for real bug chasers, there are cutters (people who cut themselves), people who burn their body with cigarettes, those who chop off body parts, some desire to be killed and eaten, etc.  Why is it such a stretch to believe that there would be people who want to be infected with HIV?"

(and I agree)

and so that human nature is vast and occasionally inexplicably dark,

then why not search in expansive explanations for some semblance of pattern, if not meaning.

[Miss Philicia]

... birds of a feather

[manchesteruk]

I consider that post to represent a particularly expansive and highly individualised quasi-buddhist philosophical take on such matters.  but hardly psychotic. 

I'm not quite sure how you can support comments like this:

why was there a blood donation center in the castro from 1975 to 1989 taking tainted blood from gays who were supporting themselves and their drug habits and dancing all night and sleeping with thousands and going to give blood to get money to live

I'll bet he can't give me any credible evidence that was the case.

I'd quite like him to explain in more detail what he means by this:

why are we treating and not capturing and forcing into rehab prisions every hiv poz person who tests poz for meth???  to save themselves and society

I'd also quite like it if he could explain the dog catcher comment because I honestly don't know what he is talking about.

I really don't know what has happened to this place.  It's been on a downward slope for a while now.

[mecch]

I really don't know what has happened to this place.  It's been on a downward slope for a while now.

Relative newbie here so don't know what it was like pre 2008. I still benefit enormously.

As to bizamek's thread. post..

Well generally I appreciate his (her?) other posts and his sometimes bleak or constructively cynical take. A healthy dose of marxist or althusserian insight on matters, sometimes.

The dog catcher tangent threw me for a loop, too.

I don't pay much attention to weird stuff in people's posts like the blood bank claim, only was defending the general sentiment in that post, like you said.

In another thread recently, about treatment trials, someone posted a trial in LA could only find Meth addicts as volunteers because they wanted the money to buy drugs.

Meth addicts seem to be the gay community's latest Boo Radley's.  (Puppy, you seem to border on demonising meth addicts, as well.)

Anyway, just saying. The post wasn't all that bad.

Hasn't anyone read Marx.

Or for that matter Nietzsche.  The stuff in the post about self-destructive drives is pretty standard.
 

[bocker3]

I don't pay much attention to weird stuff in people's posts like the blood bank claim, only was defending the general sentiment in that post, like you said.

Where was the "non-weird" part of this post? 

Defend his general sentiment?? What was his general sentiment?  Hmmm..  maybe when he intimates that hotpuppy wanted to help because of the denial of his own status?  Maybe it was stating how traumatic it can be to suddenly wake up gay?  Maybe it was asking why cities don't have dog catchers any more? 

His post was a complete rambling bit of hogwash -- with a few rather insulting thoughts thrown in.  It did not contribute a single bit to the original question.  If Bim really did have a valid point, I would expect that he would have tried to "re-explain" since his original post has caused such consternation.

Mike

[mecch]

"uncle"

[YaKaMein]

am joining Miss Philicia and giving up all kinds of 'kool aid' and birds!!

[hotpuppy]

The way I feel about Bug Chasers is that they need to be educated about the woes of being HIV+ and encouraged to get help emotionally.  It is a time to educate and above all else not be one to help them spread this disease by granting them their wish.

I think sums it up nicely.  It's sad that we have come so far, but lost so much in terms of educational outreach and the potency of our messaging.

[hotpuppy]

Meth addicts seem to be the gay community's latest Boo Radley's.  (Puppy, you seem to border on demonising meth addicts, as well.)

I don't demonize the person as much as the problem.  I have plenty of friends who are recovering or using.  I'm that guy who doesn't smoke, doesn't drink, doesn't do drugs and can sit there and watch someone do all 3.  I've also watched people try to get clean and fail, repeatedly. 

We all have choices in life.  The consequences of our choices are sometimes good, and sometimes bad.  I don't see alot of good coming out of Meth use.  I know a fair number of guys who got high, did stupid, and got poz. 

Did meth give them HIV?  Not directly.  But it led to a total lack of sense that did make them poz.  It's one thing to balance risk, it's another thing to defy it entirely.

Anyhow, you can't help someone get sober.  They have to have a drug problem before they want help.  Most don't have a drug problem.  They have a job problem, a place to live problem, a boy friend problem, an hiv problem.... etc. 

[hotpuppy]

maybe when he intimates that hotpuppy wanted to help because of the denial of his own status? 

Nonsense.  It's absolute stupidity to think that I have a problem with my own status.

1) I have a blog that states "musings of a poz man".  If that isn't out than hell I don't know what is.
2) I told him "well, if you do not know your status then we should play safe because I am poz."    That doesn't sound like I have an issue with my status.

Sure, some of his points were absurd.  But I think what happened is he made an initial point and got carried away on a slippery slope argument.  I respect him for taking the time to contribute his opinion, even if I don't agree with all of it.

His argument was basically that I should look at why I am helping others.  Yet, at the same time he cites "compassion for the weakness of others." 

Again, the point is that he took the time to write his opinion.  I respect that.  I understood his points and found the supporting text to be questionable in content, but valid.  Including the series of cascading why's.  It transitions to using the rant as a supporting argument as in Why not A why not B why not C etc.  The main point he responded to was the juxtaposition of someone being suicidal in trying to get HIV and insisting on catching it even when being told "no, don't do that." 

The response to most of this is that:
A) We must sometimes do what is unpleasant, but right.  Including reaching out to people.
B) We must consider others in our actions.  At a most basic level, not at a transactional level.
C) Somethings just are... like the fact that stray dogs roam in some places and there aren't enough dog catchers to catch them all. 
D) We must accept what we cannot change and work on the things that we can.
E) The first step in solving problems is to identify what you lack the power to change and put it in the "so what" pile.  Exercising the power of your "NO" can go a long way in helping you gain control over your situation.

[Ann]

Pup,

I don't think Bocker was accusing you of being in denial - he was commenting on what Bim said. Bim's the one who seems to think you're in denial. I don't see much point in justifying yourself to Bim - he reads into stuff what he wants to read into it, no matter what anyone else thinks or says.

And just for the record, my comments in this thread concerning Bim's notorious post are coming from Ann, the forum member, not Ann the moderator. Just sayin...

Ann

[bocker3]

Hotpuppy --

Ann got it right -- I was NOT saying you are in denial -- I was simply trying to point out that there was nothing cogent and no "general sentiment" that could possibly be defended in Bim's post.

My apologies if you took it as a hit at you.

Hugs,
Mike

[Dachshund]

Of course the simple answer to the question is to say no thank you and move along. I doubt preaching about the evils of HIV in a bar or in online chat rooms has much effect. I guess if you can just save one...

I do find it odd how morally outraged many become after the fact of their own infection. It's hard to preach safe sex to someone when they're looking at you thinking, "hey wait a minute, you took it up the pooper unprotected when you knew better". I know it's not the same as seeking out infection, but it is a kind of six degrees of seperation.

[GSOgymrat]

I do find it odd how morally outraged many become after the fact of their own infection. It's hard to preach safe sex to someone when they're looking at you thinking, "hey wait a minute, you took it up the pooper unprotected when you knew better". I know it's not the same as seeking out infection, but it is a kind of six degrees of seperation.

I think seeking out an infection is very different than someone who just has sex without a condom. It is like someone who rides in a car without a seatbelt and someone who purposely doesn't put a seatbelt on and intentionally runs their car into another car. People who are involved in "bug chasing" and "gift giving" are actively undermining what many people on this site and across the world are trying to accomplish- stopping the spread of HIV. I'm not sympathetic to people who want to intentionally spread this disease. I also don't think because I made a mistake and didn't use a condom with my partner I surrender the right to say that purposely infecting yourself with HIV and intentionally infecting others is sick and wrong. People who are "bug chasers" and "gift givers" not only screw up their own lives but play into the general public's worst fears about HIV and make life harder for the rest of us. If anything I think people with HIV are in the best position to say "I am living with the consequences of HIV and you need to stop what you are doing."

[Dachshund]

I think seeking out an infection is very different than someone who just has sex without a condom. It is like someone who rides in a car without a seatbelt and someone who purposely doesn't put a seatbelt on and intentionally runs their car into another car. People who are involved in "bug chasing" and "gift giving" are actively undermining what many people on this site and across the world are trying to accomplish- stopping the spread of HIV. I'm not sympathetic to people who want to intentionally spread this disease. I also don't think because I made a mistake and didn't use a condom with my partner I surrender the right to say that purposely infecting yourself with HIV and intentionally infecting others is sick and wrong. People who are "bug chasers" and "gift givers" not only screw up their own lives but play into the general public's worst fears about HIV and make life harder for the rest of us. If anything I think people with HIV are in the best position to say "I am living with the consequences of HIV and you need to stop what you are doing."

Maybe you missed the part where I said, "I know it's not the same as seeking out infection", but I stand by what I said. In my humble opinion we tend to moralize about how others become infected while justifying our own infection as just a mistake.

In my over twenty years of teaching HIV prevention I've learned it's better to try and distance myself from judging how others became infected. Whether by design or delusion the majority of us arrived here the same way. Ignoring the reality of infection for whatever reason.

[Miss Philicia]

Bim's the one who seems to think you're in denial. I don't see much point in justifying yourself to Bim - he reads into stuff what he wants to read into it, no matter what anyone else thinks or says.

Many of our newer forum members aren't yet acquainted with the ways of bimazek.

[komnaes]

Whether by design or delusion the majority of us arrived here the same way.

I struggle with this every time I do my outreach sessions, especially when talking to other gay men. Most are polite enough not to say it to my face but I can tell many were saying/thinking, "hey uncle, you were on a suicide mission to catch AIDS yourself and now you can fuck without a rubber while the rest of us have to get covered every single time."

I try never to judge how people get it even before my own diagnosis, and I try to tell people not to do so either because it never helps anyone. I try to tell others that people make mistakes, plain and simple, and some mistakes are irreversible and l have to live with its dire consequences every single day for the rest of my life.

But, alas, you can tell (from what they're discussing, etc) that many will immediately jump to even more moral judgments like "you guys are burdening the health care system", "you guys are giving the gay community a bad name", "you guys are spreading the disease so it's less safe for us to play around now", etc. In short, once you're the fall guy, you're on the "other side", not "their side".

IMHO the whole bug chasing thing is as much a reality as a myth. What I mean is - most people I have encountered are usually very careful/sensible when it comes to safer sex. While in my crazy barebacking days I had no problem finding willing (mostly silent, i.e. we just didn't talk about it) partners, I had encountered 10, 20 times more people telling me I was just nut to fuck with protection. I haven't met during those months a single person that could be said as a bug chaser/gift giver, which in my definition is someone explicitly verbalizing, fetishizing and eroticizing the "cult" of HIV infection.

Now all I can do is to make sure that my virus stays with me, and it seems to be good enough for my own peace of mind.

Shaun

[Steinway]

Hello,  what an interesting thread.  I first heard about Bug Chasers many years before I was infected.  I was at a bar with someone I was dating at the time and we were playing darts.  We ended up chatting with the few men that were there and had a nice conversation.  During the course of the evening two of the men that we were talking with told us that they had been together for a few years, were having some financial troubles and couldn't afford health insurance.  They had decided as a couple to seek out men that were HIV +   so they could get infected and get help with health insurance.  I was blown away.  I couldn't believe that anyone would actually seek out this sort of thing.  I understood the need for health insurance, but to actually pursue infecting yourself to get help with receiving health insurance seemed like an amazingly crazy thing to do.  Why not just cut off both of your legs and try for disability why you are at it?

    I'm not really sure of the other reasons of why people out there are trying to get infected.  Maybe they want to fit in?   Sounds crazy, but possible.  I also have a feeling that some of these guys online are full of crap.  They are just bored and want to chat with someone and know that they can have someone to chat with or swap emails with, even if it's all a lie.  I think it's amazing that Hotpuppy wants to reach out to help guys that are set on getting infected,  I just hope that these guys aren't just bored lonely people making up a reason to have someone reach out to them.  It's also possible that these guys are already infected and just want to get laid.  People will try stranger tricks than these to do so. Who really knows?  I hate to say that it's a waste of time to do an outreach program for these people, but if they are full of it, then I would say yes, it is a waste of time, unless you just want to be there for lonely people that like to lie to get people to pay attention to them.  Either way it sounds like a lot of drama to me.

   Other than the bar story from years ago, I personally have never met someone that has asked me to infect them for what ever reason.  I wouldn't say it's a myth that they exist, but I would say that they are few and far between.  What might be a better outreach is simply to help the people on this site or others like it that need encouragement.  I know I sure could use it from lonely-time to lonely-time.

    No matter what, I hope that Hotpuppy is able to at least talk some sense into one guy that is really pursuing getting infected. Those people are out there and maybe he will be someone to stop someone else from being stupid about it all.  I wouldn't wish this condition on anyone, not even my worst enemy.

   All my best to all.

[Desertguy]

I am confused as to why we even have a discussion on this subject!!!

                         "Just ask them are you "FUCKING STUPID" and walk away!!!

                                                "Confused in the Desert!!!!"

[GSOgymrat]

They had decided as a couple to seek out men that were HIV +   so they could get infected and get help with health insurance. 

What country were they in? In the U.S. you don't get health insurance because you are HIV+.

[hotpuppy]

I think it's amazing that Hotpuppy wants to reach out to help guys that are set on getting infected,  I just hope that these guys aren't just bored lonely people making up a reason to have someone reach out to them.  It's also possible that these guys are already infected and just want to get laid. 

Remember, this was in person.  I usually ignore the ones online.  I'm pretty blunt about it.  I just tell them, sorry I don't do neg guys.... low drama diet ya know.  For the most part I don't.  I can find plenty of hot poz guys to play with and I don't have to worry about the cum and freak-out syndrome.  Now, I do sometimes play with neg guys who are willing to play safe and be more than just a piece of ass. I still would prefer to make HIV a non-issue by dating someone else who understands it, has shared problems, shared goals, and who I can connect with.

I admire those that can date sero-opposites.  I didn't do it before I was poz for much the same reason I don't want to do it now. 

I was just surprised to have someone answer, "What are you trying to catch HIV?" with "yes, I am. Can I have yours?" Um, {Poof} I'm outta here, you crazy psycho fool. 

I think we have a moral responsibility to encourage others to do the right thing.

[hotpuppy]

I am confused as to why we even have a discussion on this subject!!!

                 

Because I was curious how other poz guys and gals handle it.  I'm not the only one that this has happened to.  I prefer not to reinvent the wheel and often others have better ideas on how to deal with problems.

Having someone ask you to infect them with HIV is much like having someone ask you to shoot them.  While it isn't guaranteed to lead to their death, it has a high probability of hastening it.  Perhaps my perspective is different.  Maybe I still feel like HIV is a burden.  Hell yea it is.  I don't know many of us that celebrate it.  I do equate wanting to catch HIV to suicide. 

When I was in the military I was an expert with the hand grenade, grenade launcher, and a sharpshooter with a rifle.  All of which are implements of death.  Fortunately, I have never been in a situation where I had to take a human life.  However, when you train to shoot, at some point you have to realize that the plastic targets that look like people could easily be people.  My point being that the only reason you point a weapon at another person is if you intend to kill them and are prepared to do so.  I hope that I never have to do that.

Being asked to give someone HIV has the same feeling as having someone ask me to shoot them.  It's disturbing.

[denb45]

I think we have a moral responsibility to encourage others to do the right thing.

I've had a moral responsibility to protect my NEG partner of 15 yrs. ( I get a lotta flack for having a NEG partner, even by a lot of you in this forum, but I'm used to it, after 15 yrs.) I look at it this way, I'm the one that's POZ, he's not, so, it's my responsibility, more so, than his, I can't get anything form him, and I certainly don't want to give HIV to anyone for that matter, even if they begged me to.........at the end of the day, it's all of our responsibility to do the right thing, it's tough to talk to a lotta young guys, cause most of them just won't listen, they say things like, Oh your Old school, or your OLD, I also use to get called papa, or daddy, uncle, or whatever, and that was a long time ago, what the hell do you know, is what I get when I try to do HIV out-reach  you can't help people who will not help themselves......if you can reach one person and help them, then I guess, it's not all that bad.......

[Steinway]

What country were they in? In the U.S. you don't get health insurance because you are HIV+.

They were in Tampa Florida,  had friends that were not previously insured, they found out they were infected and then had full coverage. The men  had approached those same people about getting infected by them and they said no to them and didn't want to hang out with them anymore.  They also said that the infected guys had become boring and no longer visited the bars.  It is very possible that these men were just playing with us, trying to shock us?  Who knows really?  I never saw them again beyond that evening.

It's honestly not a big part of this whole thread. It's just one experience that I had, just thought I would share what happened.

Hotpuppy,  I just saw that you posted again, I'm not sure how to copy two posts in mine, but I understand how you feel about dating.  I have changed my ways quite a bit, call me crazy, anyone here can judge me all they want, but I just don't want to date anyone that isn't positive now.  I don't want to infect them.  I would rather be single, put my energy in loving my family and friends and not have that part of my life fulfilled than to infect someone I care about.  I am good friends with a nice young couple.  I was around when they started dating.  During the courtship time one of them found out he was positive.  It put a hard wedge in the beginnings of their relationship.  Later things smoothed out.  Then almost a year later the second guy, negative, found out he was positive.  They said they had been safe, but also that one time a condom did break.  So now they are both positive, one on meds, one not,  both happy and they were married two years ago.  So there are happy endings after all.  I surely understand your concern for people that are seeking this out.  I surely do not understand what their motivation is to pursue it.   I wish you all the best of encouragement that I can through this little message for anyone in the future that you will talk out of doing such an amazingly heinous thing.  

[hotpuppy]

Oh your Old school, or your OLD,

The response to that is simple.  You got old by doing the right things from time to time.  Perhaps they would like to get old too?

[denb45]

The response to that is simple.  You got old by doing the right things from time to time.  Perhaps they would like to get old too?

Why Thank You hotpuppy, most young people don't wanna deal with the big picture, yes if they survive to get old, it's easy to become Invisible when your in your 50's cause nobody looks at you anyway......LOL