Ann's link "Addicted?": a place gays may wish to avoid

[Strayboy74]

you have also haphazardly tried to minimize, degrade, and disprove with shoddy statistics a program which has proven itself to work for many people.


Naturally Joseph you can demonstrate how the statistics and other proofs that JK has provided are shoddy, can't you?

MtD

I don't have to, Matty.  That's the beauty.  I know what works for me - and that's all that matters.  I don't condemn the means of others to achieve sobriety.  I'm grateful for WHATEVER works.

I wish you peace, Matty.  May you find your fault elsewhere.*

-joseph

* - edited to add "may you"

[Matty the Damned]

I don't have to, Matty.  That's the beauty.  I know what works for me - and that's all that matters.  I don't condemn the means of others to achieve sobriety.  I'm grateful for WHATEVER works.

I wish you peace, Matty.  May you find your fault elsewhere.*

-joseph

* - edited to add "may you"

Ah. So you can't. Just as I thought dear.

MtD
(Who is content finding fault here for now)

[AustinWesley]

wow, I just spent unbelievable hour or more reading this damned thread.

Andy, well said, Mike, you too.

Somethings I thought about were brought up later in the thread, such as court ordered attendance. Of course, as shown by Wesleys post, MOST DON"T WANT TO BE THERE!! They go to as many as ordered and stop. Or drop out sooner, and find something else. Personal therapy sessions are great, if the person has insurance. I'm sure many of the alcoholics who find themselves in front of a judge don't have insurance, and are thereby directed to AA ( or other program as long as they get the help).

I'm now completely tired of this subject, but will add my own story.

I am not an alcoholic, I'm only addicted to cigarettes. My stepfather is an alcoholic. He would not only drive while drunk, he would drink the gin str8 from the bottle while driving. He would drink Nyquil from the supermarket if the liquor stores were closed. He hit rock bottom, and was told he could only stay if he stopped drinking. He chose to keep drinking. Til he found himself sleeping in an all night laundromat in Vegas. ( he likes to gamble too). My mom, said, ok, only if you stop drinking. He went to AA, almost daily. He is far from a bible thumper, does not attend church and has not had a drink since 1/21/90. Why is this date so important? It's the day we got a great family member back. My sister loathed this man when we had to live at home with him, and even after she left the house. Today, he's the proud grandfather of her two children, and she's quite happy about it.

This may be anecdotal, but it is FACT.

I'd hate to think an alcoholic GUEST of AIDSMEDS was perusing this site, and couldn't get halfway through this thread before realizing that AA is a sham, and won't help them, and they should just give up~ ( or join an ONLINE recovery program?).

Hey LongIsland,

Well thanks for highlighting me as an "alcoholic"  ; )   LOL, ironically it was my birthday no less and I'd had 2 tropical LongIslands on my night in question.

No, let's get it clear.  I got a DUI.   I was court ordered into an ongoing freak show despite my objections that it violated my civil rights and request that I be able to attend a non secular program.   I thought the whole thing was stupid and in my opinion all the thousands I paid out for having more than a legal limit on my birthday were NOT just cause for what I went through.    If you ask me the whole DUI stuff is PURE REVENUE.   It's a complete sham!   

However, as if having all my prison fantasies ruined on Sunset Blvd. wasn't enough, I had to spend 3 months with a bunch of dysfunctional misfits with bizarre behavior disabilities and a strong affiliation with Christian fundamentals.

If that's not Hell,  I don't know what is?

Wesley

[Longislander]

Well thanks for highlighting me as an "alcoholic"  ; )   LOL, ironically it was my birthday no less and I'd had 2 tropical LongIslands on my night in question.

Hey Wes, sorry if it came out like that, after an hour or more, my mind was fogged.

[sweetasmeli]

There will have been a multitude of members and lurkers who have read your sage commentary and clicked your links without commenting.

I am one of those such members who has been checking out Jonathan's links.
And I know I already did comment on that but thought it was worth mentioning again.

Like I said in my original teensy post much earlier on in this mighty thread, my friend with his habit is an avid atheist, who would have (without a shadow of a doubt) scoffed at the mere suggestion of GA (given their religious leanings). But that's because I know him and I know (pretty well) how he thinks. So, I wanted/needed to see alternatives to religion-based organisations.

I also know myself. If I were indeed an addict in need of help - I'm presuming Chocaholics Anonymous does not exist - then I know that any religious-based organisations would not be my choice of support either, as the principles they are based on would hold no meaning for me. But that's just me.

I say whatever works for you, go with it.

One of my philosophies in life has always been: as long as you're not harming others, do as you please.

Yeia kai hara (health and happiness) to all!
Melia

[bocker3]

I also know myself. If I were indeed an addict in need of help - I'm presuming Chocaholics Anonymous does not exist - then I know that any religious-based organisations would not be my choice of support either, as the principles they are based on would hold no meaning for me. But that's just me.

I say whatever works for you, go with it.

One of my philosophies in life has always been: as long as you're not harming others, do as you please.

Yeia kai hara (health and happiness) to all!
Melia

Melia -- thank you for your post because it helps illustrate 2 points that I've been trying to make (admittedly the first point more strongly than the 2nd).

1 -- AA is not a religious based organization.  And before anyone says differently, go through the AA literature and tell me which to Religion it "belongs".  It certainly is a spiritually based program, but you do NOT need to believe in anyone's god to belong or to succeed.  This has been my biggest fear of this post.  Stating otherwise is potentially harming others.

2 -- I agree that people need to find the help that will work best for them.  If AA is not it, I don't care -- I want people to find the help they need where ever it may be.  I know the horrors of alcoholism and only wish people success in treating it.

Hugs,
Mike

[Matty the Damned]

1 -- AA is not a religious based organization.  And before anyone says differently, go through the AA literature and tell me which to Religion it "belongs".  It certainly is a spiritually based program, but you do NOT need to believe in anyone's god to belong or to succeed.  This has been my biggest fear of this post.  Stating otherwise is potentially harming others.

It belongs to the religions which believe in "god" dear. You've heard of them? If not Velez or Ann can point you in the right direction. As Donny and Marie Osmond were a little bit country, they're a little bit spiritual. It explains the similarities, don't ya think?

Atheists and agnostics (damn their oily hides) would indeed have a problem with this and considering that 30 million Americans are unbelievers (ie they reject the spiritual) it fucks the whole 12 step thing right up.

MtD

[bravebuddharich]

Many of these posts have made me so sad, even a bit depressed! All the clinging, attachment, meanness of spirit, yikes!!! But especially the defensiveness - a total inability to acknowledge in any way collective responsibility! When I hear that folks with my opinion are moralizing I know this is defensiveness. It's not about morality, it's about how this whole belief system of everything being a personal choice does not acknowledge the consequences for larger communities! And this matters enormously!!

I have mixed feelings about all of the AA groups. They do help many people; other people need other resources, and I'm glad they exist, too. As long as people get the help. But it all leaves in place the underlying issues, esp. for gay men, who very often have a high sense of entitlement without much responsibility.

I hate the stabs at humor in these threads! I understand it is defensive, but it is also a problem!

May all human beings be free from addictions and suffering!

[Matty the Damned]

Many of these posts have made me so sad, even a bit depressed! All the clinging, attachment, meanness of spirit, yikes!!! But especially the defensiveness - a total inability to acknowledge in any way collective responsibility! When I hear that folks with my opinion are moralizing I know this is defensiveness. It's not about morality, it's about how this whole belief system of everything being a personal choice does not acknowledge the consequences for larger communities! And this matters enormously!!

I have mixed feelings about all of the AA groups. They do help many people; other people need other resources, and I'm glad they exist, too. As long as people get the help. But it all leaves in place the underlying issues, esp. for gay men, who very often have a high sense of entitlement without much responsibility.

I hate the stabs at humor in these threads! I understand it is defensive, but it is also a problem!

May all human beings be free from addictions and suffering!

And!! Brave!! May!! you!! soon!! be!! free!! from!! your!! addiction!! to!! exclamation!! points!!

M!!t!!D!!

[BB]

Hi all, long time no see. But first off, best of luck in finding a place to live Ann. Having your life turned upside down is gut wrenching.

I must wonder if AA, SA, SAA or any of the many other programs simply offer a way, like a beginning, to another direction in life. I attended some SA and SAA meetings and realized several personal truisms. First, these meetings were a great place to meet other people who loved sex and who were very good in bed/the couch/the back seat of a car/bent over a fallen tree, etc. etc. Also, I very much enjoyed sex with many other members  of the various groups I was lucky enough to attend. Is this the 13th step some of you referred to? I also realized that lusting after the Great Orgasm was OK and that I held within me this oft referred to higher power. The higher power was me and I was and still am ok with being me. All the rest of the steps were meaningless and a waste of time at this point in my life.

Life experiences such as the 12 step meetings along with the many other events in my life offered a different idea or direction that I could choose to explore. I am ok with being myself regardless of what others think I should be. My identity, my "self" continues to grow and develop in the direction I choose.

So, do meetings like AA, SA, SAA work? I guess that concept depends upon who you are and what information is deemed worthy of interest and use to any specific individual.

Best wishes to everyone,
Bill

[sweetasmeli]

1 -- AA is not a religious based organization.  And before anyone says differently, go through the AA literature and tell me which to Religion it "belongs".  It certainly is a spiritually based program, but you do NOT need to believe in anyone's god to belong or to succeed.  This has been my biggest fear of this post.  Stating otherwise is potentially harming others.

Mike, I didn’t say it belongs to any one religion. When taken at face value, however, organisations such as AA, GA et al appear to belong – to borrow Matty’s words – to the religions that believe in “God”.

Perhaps I phrased is inaccurately when I used the term "religious based". But AA organisations and the like seem to have very strong links with religious thinking. Spiritual thinking, from what I understand, is to be open to anything – ie any god, gods, goddesses etc – or simply to be open to the power of the universe as a force. Granted, somewhere along the way, the words ‘religious’ and ‘spiritual’ do appear to have claimed synonymy; I’m not sure I entirely agree with that concept though. But whatever, I don’t wish to digress…

I was merely going from what I read in GA's 12 steps:

http://www.gamblersanonymous.org/recovery.html

The 12 step program claims to be based on ancient spiritual principles yet chooses to use the terms 'God' 'Him' and 'His will'. The very wording of those steps rules out any possibilities anything other than a singular (and male) ‘God’ being the spiritual focus (despite the bracketed afterthought suggesting “of our understanding”). However, my understanding of “ancient spiritual principles” is that based on the concept of multiple deities.

Thinking it could just be me misinterpreting what was written, I decided to have a quick look at an AA website link instead:

http://www.alcoholics-anonymous.org.uk/geninfo/05steps.shtml

Hmm… “God”, “Him” and “His will” again. This time “as we understood him” being the afterthought.

I notice that AA includes the footnote:

“Newcomers are not asked to accept or follow these Twelve Steps in their entirety if they feel unwilling or unable to do so.”

Fair enough. But still. I’m curious and, admittedly somewhat dubious. Couldn't the fact that AA uses the 12 Step program as a foundation for the recovery of its members be interpreted as being tantamount to planting a religion-based seed in the vulnerable minds of addicts, who are desperately seeking anything that will help them stop their addiction? Note, I am not stating that as a fact, but merely pointing that out as a possibility, to be perceived and questioned as seen fit by one and all here.

Also, ‘God’ references aside, the 12 Step Program seems (to me) also to be based on the principle that we hand over "our will” and “our lives” (their words not mine) – in other words, our control (my words) – to Whatever Greater Power we choose to believe in. I’m sorry, but what??? If that is indeed the case, then that just doesn’t sit comfy with me at all. It’s one thing accepting and admitting that your addiction has taken control over you. It’s completely another thing to relinquish all control in taking control over your habit. I can just about see where personal responsibility comes into these 12 Step Programs, but what about self-reliance and self-trust?

Mike, these organisations may not blatantly state that faith in a god/goddess/higher power is necessary in order to succeed but they certainly insinuate it, and repeatedly so.

Admittedly, having never attended an addicts meeting, I don’t know exactly what they entail, so undoubtedly I must be missing a point somewhere. But as someone who does not believe in god or gods or the like, and as someone looking for help for an atheist friend with an addiction, the 12 Step program – the way AA, GA et al portray it on their websites, anyway – would not be the pathway I would choose for myself. Nor would I suggest to my friend, as I know that, aside from looking at me like I don’t know him but at all, he would laugh in my face at the mere suggestion, simply due to the strong religious/spiritual leaning in the 12 Step Program wording.

As you recognise already, I stand alongside you on your second point though, that people need to find the help that works best for them, whatever that may be. Like I said before, as long as you're not harming others, do as you please.

However, I think people also need to go into situations with their eyes wide open, at least partly aware of what they are entering into – including an awareness of possible hidden agendas and/or ambiguous messages – something that not all addicts have the luxury or capacity of doing whilst in the throws of their addiction(s).

With respect
Melia

[Jnm594]

Ok I am thoroughly confused.....If you are not an alcoholic then why would you give a shit about AA? Don't we all have enough problems in our own day to day lives dealing with the Big A then to waste energy on something that doesn't even impact our personal lives?

Grow Up.

Me thinks some are protesting too much...................................

I am now waiting for the self righteous and blatently hostile smug and pompous emails that I will just delete after a good self satisfied chuckle........