Author Topic: Worried, please help.... (Read 28263 times)

nadeau91 · « **on:** February 21, 2008, 07:24:19 am »

Hi all,

I have read the lessons section on the site. I think my situation is not a problem, but I hesitate to make that judgment absent some good advice. I appreciate the work you all do for people.

Here is what happened:

Last weekend I hooked up witha guy (I am male), that I know pretty well. I know well in the sense that we have been friends for a year, but I DON'T know well in that we have not discussed each other's background sex lives. Prior to this occasion, it was never an issue. I have heard him tell me he always uses condoms for intercourse, but we all know how much that can be trusted!

Anyway, the extent of our hookup was reasonably low risk. We kissed (open mouth, tongue) and I did some mild rimming and oral. My worry is the oral...only for about 3 seconds did I place his penis in my mouth...he was not erect, and did not appear to be pre-cumming, but who knows?

I am worried some got in my mouth. I know he did not ejaculate, he did that later masturbating.

So...can a short oral experience like that transmit HIV? I am very worried by what I don't know. I woke up the morning after with a sore throat and slight cold...I just hope things are not related.

Of course, this assumes my friend even has HIV!!?? Which his pledge to safety would imply he does not...but...

Should I test?? Should I worry? This whole "oral is theoretical" freaks me out...I mean, can transmission occur without ejaculation?

Matty the Damned · « **Reply #1 on:** February 21, 2008, 07:36:29 am »

Nad,

Today is your lucky day because Matty the Damned has good news for you. You don't have to test for HIV because of this sexual encounter.

I told you it was good news.

I know you're concerned about the "theoretical" risk associated with you giving this chap an unprotected blowjob, but you don't have to be concerned. You weren't at risk of being infected with HIV. You had real oral sex and in the real world HIV just isn't transmitted that way, no matter what you might have read elsewhere.

All sexually active people should have a full STD screen at least once a year, twice is better. There are STD's which are more prevalent and transmissible than HIV. Diseases like gonorrhoea and chlamydia can be transmitted via oral sex and you would do well to be tested for these.

Please note that in advising you to have a full STD screen I am not suggesting that you have any STD (HIV or otherwise) rather I'm suggesting that it's a good habit for sexually active adults to get into.

You should also enquire about Hepatitis A and B vaccinations.

Once again, you don't have to be worried about HIV infection from this encounter.

Be well,

MtD

nadeau91 · « **Reply #2 on:** February 21, 2008, 07:55:07 am »

Hi MtD,

Thanks for responding so fast! That makes me feel better. I don't take it for granted that this should be common behavior (which it isn't) with me, but I was punishing myself for one slip...then again, I suppose BJ's occur all over the world, and most don't have condoms...if HIV was common that way, I'd guess the epidemic could be even worse!

I will take your advice on the other testing just as a good thing...although from what I have found on the other STD's, this sore throat is likely unrelated...I had it within 4 hours and it behaves like a cold, and few STD's gestate in 4 hours!

I did have some required HEP vaccinations as part of NCAA requirements in college...had like 3 shots...but I don't remember if it was A, B or C!

Anyway, thanks on the HIV thing, and I'll move on and cross my fingers you are right! :-)

Cheers.

Matty the Damned · « **Reply #3 on:** February 21, 2008, 08:01:30 am »

Nad,

I'm glad I've been able to help you. Allow me to help you some more.

The hepatitis shots you've had have been for Hepatitis B, as Hep B has a three shot protocol. Hep A has a two shot protocol over 12 months. There is no vaccine for Hepatitis C, but you don't need to worry about Hep C in sexual terms.

If you're into licking bum (and let's face it who isn't?) you'd be wise to get the Hep A shots as well.

Best regards,

MtD

nadeau91 · « **Reply #4 on:** February 21, 2008, 08:04:39 am »

Hey thanks!

Much appreciated. Keep up the good work.

Matty the Damned · « **Reply #5 on:** February 21, 2008, 08:05:59 am »

I'll try kiddo.

MtD

nadeau91 · « **Reply #6 on:** February 21, 2008, 09:20:29 am »

Hi all,

Just curious here given the AMAZING number of questions surrounding blowjobs...(who knew such a common occurrence could cause so much hoopla??):

It seems from the HIV perspective, backed by all the science, this site points to giving a blowjob as not a risk situation for HIV, but possibly for other STD's...(as are all sex acts that are non-solo). Just using common sense and knowing how many blowjobs occur, men and women, most without condoms, one would think HIV would be EVERYWHERE if that were the case.

My question is this: does not having ejaculate in the mouth reduce risk giving a blowjob, or do you view it the same risk? I think some people, maybe even myself here, can learn from this. I have read that the mouth is not a good way to transmit HIV, and we know nothing can be translated unless bodily fluids are exchanged. So...if someone performs oral and avoids the ejaculate, does that at least reduce exposure for oral??

I know for anal or vaginal it is always the same, protection every time. But...I don't know about you all, but don't know a lot of people that use condoms for oral. Am I nuts?

Matty the Damned · « **Reply #7 on:** February 21, 2008, 09:30:37 am »

No you're not nuts, but you are 'what-iffing', and 'what-iffing' pisses us off.

You had such a good start Nad, you don't want to ruin it but 'what-iffing' do you? Let me help you out.

HIV is transmitted via:

There has never been a documented case of HIV being transmitted via blowjob, given or received. You won't be the first case.

So what do you want to do?

Do you want to be yet another worried well loser who continues to push his luck until one of our Moderators bans you?

Or do you want to be the sensible fellow who accepts that he doesn't have HIV and gets on with his life?

The choice is yours.

MtD

nadeau91 · « **Reply #8 on:** February 21, 2008, 09:40:23 am »

Consider me done, MtD!

Thanks. :-) Sometimes we all need slapped around!

nadeau91 · « **Reply #9 on:** February 24, 2008, 12:36:48 am »

Hi All,

At the same time I had written you guys (kudos, you respond faster!!!) :-)...I had written a parallel request to another site called The Body. A friend of mine recommended only your site and theirs as being good. The Body pointed me to the following response on the "oral question", and the answer (listed below) seems to me a bit different from here. I am just curious "why the difference?" They claim documented cases of Oral Transmission, but I really trust what Matty and others are saying here. He is very definitive. :-)

So what is one to believe?? In my case, there was NO ejaculation and...in the 6 seconds or less the penis was in my mouth, I suppose precum was possible but I didn't notice it. More importantly, I am wondering about future scenarios...what could you tell me to give me any comfort on "safe" action here...I'll be honest and fair as you guys are with me: there is no safe beyond one's hand, admittedly, but I also know VERY few (ok...NONE) people that use condoms for blowjobs. What do you make of the comments below? Is it more theoretical than real? They seem to imply more risk....

From THE BODY: "If you are RECEIVING oral sex from someone else, you are only being exposed to saliva. The concentrations of the virus in saliva are so low, that nobody has ever been infected from saliva. Keep in mind however that you can get other sexually transmitted diseases (like herpes) by receiving oral sex. However, as far as HIV is concerned, receiving oral sex is extremely low risk.

If you are GIVING someone oral sex, there is a risk of infection since pre-cum, semen, vaginal secretions, and menstrual blood can get into your mouth. The more of these body fluids you are exposed to, the greater the risk of infection there would be. If you have any open sores, cuts, abrasions, or gum disease in the mouth, the virus can get into your bloodstream. The risk is less than vaginal or anal intercourse, but the risk is real, and transmission can occur. There have already been reported cases of HIV infection specifically through giving oral sex. In addition to HIV, while giving oral sex, you could also be at risk for other Sexually Transmitted Diseases (STD's) including herpes and gonorrhea.

Now, when we're talking about the levels of risk by giving oral sex, there is no one answer since several variables actually determine the true level of risk. Let me describe the risks of giving a man oral sex as an example.

Both pre-cum and semen contain high concentrations of HIV. Semen is however a riskier body fluid because you are normally exposed to a greater quantity of semen as compared to pre-cum. Does that mean that pre-cum is totally safe? No! But we can say that the more infectious body fluid you are exposed to, the greater the liklihood of transmission. So, you can become infected by pre-cum alone, but you are much more likely to become infected if the guy cums in your mouth, since you're exposed to a much greater quantity of his body fluid.

Of course, the virus must also be able to get into the bloodstream through some type of open sore, abrasion, gum disease etc. The more openings that HIV has to get into your bloodstream, the greater your risk would be.

Without ejaculation, there still is some risk of getting infected through giving oral sex, but the risk would be much greater if the man ejaculated in the mouth. So rather than saying high risk vs. low risk, it's actually a spectrum of risk.

NO EXPOSURE TO PRE-CUM OR SEMEN: no risk as far as HIV is concerned.

EXPOSURE TO PRE-CUM ONLY: low risk (but still technically possible). The more pre-cum you get exposed to, the greater the risk would be.

EXPOSURE TO BOTH PRE-CUM AND SEMEN: risky, especially if there are cuts/open sores in the mouth. The more semen you're exposed to, and the more cuts/abrasions/gum disease in the mouth, the greater the risk. But overall, although risky, it is still generally considered less of a risk than unprotected intercourse.

So again, we're talking about a spectrum of risk. This is why there will be no absolute answer of high vs. low risk of giving oral sex. But we can say that HIV has now been found to be transmitted by GIVING oral sex....especially if there is ejaculation (but not receiving oral sex). Also keep in mind that if you are giving a woman oral sex, the same principals apply, that is, the more vaginal secretions and menstrual blood that you get in your mouth, the greater the chance of infection.

And by the way.....A VERY IMPORTANT THING TO REMEMBER is that there doesn't necessarily have to be ejaculation to be infected with other Sexually Transmitted Diseases (STD's). For example, if you give a man oral sex, and that man has gonorrhea, you could get infected with gonorrhea in the throat, whether the man ejaculates or not. Gonorrhea can cause a discharge that can be very infectious if it gets into the throat (or penis/rectum/vagina) of another person. So things that may be lower risk for HIV (giving oral sex without ejaculation) may be high risk for other diseases, like gonorrhea. "

Matty the Damned · « **Reply #10 on:** February 24, 2008, 12:56:57 am »

I have no intention of trying to explain why they say the things they do at The Body. I can only tell you what we here know to be the facts.

It is a fact that there are no documented cases of HIV being transmitted via oral sex.

MtD

nadeau91 · « **Reply #11 on:** February 24, 2008, 08:44:13 am »

Wow...you are fast! I understand what you are saying. As a poor layman on this whole issue, I am just confused by why they woud go so far as to say: there are proven cases from GIVING oral sex.

I know in my case there was no ejaculation...so your position on me and testing is pretty clear. In fact, in the 3 or 4 movements I actually performed oral, I'm not even sure if there was an ounce of precum! That's hard to tell, but...

Anyway, thanks for responding so fast and being so definitive. It makes me feel better about future events knowing the level of detail you guys have to follow these things. I just wish others would do the same...and I am confused about why they would make the other conclusion or what studies they are reading to call "Giving Oral" risky? I know they aren't a "George Bush Abstinence Center" over there! :-)

Andy Velez · « **Reply #12 on:** February 24, 2008, 09:14:56 am »

Nad, I want to add further to Matty's comments.

There have been a very few cases reported of transmission via giving a blowjob. However, when carefully examined they have not stood up to rigorous scientific analysis. Other factors have come into play which have made the means of transmission questionable.

On the other hand there have been longterm studies of sero-discordant gay and straight couples who practiced safer sex consistently by using condoms for vaginal and anal intercourse. They also had lots of mutual oral sex. The results over very extended periods have been that not a single sero-negative partner has become infected.

In spite of this solid information we continue to hear the kind of scare stories you have mentioned. So it finally comes down to deciding what level of risk you are willing to accept. And that is an individual decision you have to make for yourself. Anytime you have sex with someone else there is theoretically a risk for transmission. But in the real world of HIV we know from many years of experience that sexually the risk is about unprotected vaginal and anal sex.

You have to decide what you're ok with.

nadeau91 · « **Reply #13 on:** February 24, 2008, 09:47:05 am »

Andy,

Thanks so much! That makes a lot of sense...I guess it's sort of like when a Doctor gives an x-ray they can't say there is "zero" radiation risk, when in fact...hard fact...the risk is much less than humans gt every day from the sun and nature!

It is very valuable to differentiate real world from theory. Thanks again.

I assume that you share Matt's view in my case and that in this example testing is not a necessity? Regardless of what all these "theoreticians" say...

nadeau91 · « **Reply #14 on:** February 24, 2008, 09:48:42 am »

And in those long-term studies, were the couples usually doing unprotected oral? I would assume yes.

Andy Velez · « **Reply #15 on:** February 24, 2008, 10:21:08 am »

Yes, they were doing unprotected oral. That was the point of the study -- to be able to determine what the risk was, if any, if intercourse was protected and oral wasn't. As I said, the result was that not a single sero-negative partner became HIV infected.

nadeau91 · « **Reply #16 on:** February 24, 2008, 10:32:29 am »

Thanks Andy,

Your online team are all really, really, good and VERY responsive. People don't say thanks often enough in any walk of life, so let me say it here.

I guess it's normal to be nervous in the world we live in, but being aware is better than sticking one's head in the sand. Thanks for such a strong view...but I think I overreacted some and testing, based on just this incident (I don't have any others that would require it), doesn't seem necessary?

Andy Velez · « **Reply #17 on:** February 24, 2008, 04:54:18 pm »

You're welcome.

No, I don't think testing is necessary over this particular incident.

We do in general recommend that anyone who's sexually active regularly have a full STD panel done, which means at least annually.

This time out I don't see any cause for concern about HIV.

nadeau91 · « **Reply #18 on:** March 31, 2008, 12:10:58 pm »

Hi guys,

I have a question...I know the lessons say that kissing is not dangerous. Does this include French kissing, tongues and all that? What about a hickey?? I guess, technically, a love bite is a bruise, not an open wound, so it would seem to make sense HIV doesn't come from a bruise! I had a hickey in a bar last week. Aside from the embarrassment, I was just wonderin.

Also, my doctor told me when asked that anal fingering is not considered an effective risk of HIV transmission. Is this true in your view?

Andy Velez · « **Reply #19 on:** March 31, 2008, 02:18:25 pm »

Kissing including deep kissing is not a risk for transmission. Other than theoretically. In the real world of HIV it just doesn't happen that way. I agree with your doc. Fingering is definitely NOT a risk for transmission either.

Cheers,

nadeau91 · « **Reply #20 on:** March 31, 2008, 02:40:27 pm »

Thanks Andy. That makes me feel better. The only thing that always make me nervous is "theoretically". That always seems to imply a possibility, but I'm assuming that's more the case if you kiss someone with an open wound that's just bleeding away, etc. I have to guess there's been an awful lot of deep kissing over the years, and kissing is usually involving tongues (not too much pecking on the lips these days!), and one would think the spread would be EVERYWHERE if it spread that way...have people studied that, or is it seen scientifically as not being a real fear?

nadeau91 · « **Reply #21 on:** March 31, 2008, 02:55:02 pm »

I have heard of one case where transmission occurred in people with really bad dental problems and disease, but everyone can have gingivitis sometimes, etc. And sometimes it's hard to tell. Is that a "real" danger?

On the flip side, I do tell myself when one thinks of the number of tongue kissing in a lifetime, it would seem fairly safe since not everyone is running around with HIV and I am sure people do french kiss lots of people not knowing they are positive, etc.. Is there cause for concern?

And i assume a hickey is not a cause for concern as its not an open wound...has anyone ever had issue with that?

Sorry, but I normally try to avoid love bites!

RapidRod · « **Reply #22 on:** March 31, 2008, 03:51:31 pm »

If your teeth are falling out due to dental disease then you shouldn't give head. No you do not contract HIV from kissing. and no you can't get it from a hickey. Take the time and read the lessons on transmission. You can find the link in the "Welcome" thread.

nadeau91 · « **Reply #23 on:** March 31, 2008, 05:11:43 pm »

Thanks RapidRod! Always appreciate your being direct. :-)

So I would assume that any form of deep kissing, tongue tag, etc. would not warrant the resource or investment of HIV testing IF one kept to french kissing only and was not engaging in oral, anal or vaginal sex?

RapidRod · « **Reply #24 on:** March 31, 2008, 06:19:54 pm »

Use a condom for anal or vaginal sex and you'll be good to go.

Andy Velez · « **Reply #25 on:** March 31, 2008, 09:39:06 pm »

Everything except unprotected vaginal or anal sex is essentially theoretical in terms of risk. Theoretical meaning it could happen but in the real world of HIV we know it doesn't. Time and time again a case of transmission attributed to giving oral or other theoretical risks, when carefully explored as to details, etc., does not hold up to real scientific examination.

Of course ias Rod has pointed out that if you have serious oral problems with open wounds that giving head under those circumstances would hardly make sense in terms of various infections the person could be vulnerable to.

nadeau91 · « **Reply #26 on:** March 31, 2008, 11:32:11 pm »

Thanks Andy.

My dental work is certainly not bad!! And if I had to guess, I didn't do an inspection, but I don't think the guys I have kissed had gaping wounds in their mouths. I guess one way to think of theoretical is that it can happen, and the only reason it's not ruled out fully is because we cant say for sure why it doesn't happen. Statistics just show it doesn't without knowing why? I just got worried over kissing, because for most people deep kissing would be a precursor to other, potentially riskier acts, so if they did acquire a virus during their lovemaking, how would they know at which point it was "really" acquired? Well, no reason to What if, I'm going to go with you and the experts that know alot more than me!! I assume that's beenlooked at over 25 years of study!

A friend of mine in medicine also said french kissing should not be an issue for real risk or testing. He said that if testing were required after deep kissing we'd need testing centers around like Starbucks and that's not the real world.

Appreciate the guidance!

Ann · « **Reply #27 on:** April 01, 2008, 06:58:08 am »

Quote from: nadeau91 on March 31, 2008, 11:32:11 pm

I just got worried over kissing, because for most people deep kissing would be a precursor to other, potentially riskier acts, so if they did acquire a virus during their lovemaking, how would they know at which point it was "really" acquired?

nad,

Because if you could get infected through kissing, then some of the people who consistently used condoms in the three serodiscordant studies would have been infected. They weren't.

There have been long-term studies of couples where one is positive and one is negative. In the couples who used condoms for anal or vaginal intercourse, but no barrier for oral activities, not one of the negative partners became infected with hiv. Not one. This shows us two things. One, condoms are very effective for the prevention of hiv transmission. Two, oral sex is much lower risk than previously believed. We now have the evidence that oral sex is a very low risk activity where hiv transmission is concerned - and kissing is NO risk.

As you've been told, use condoms for anal or vaginal intercourse, correctly and consistently, and you will avoid hiv infection. It really is that simple! Read through all three condom and lube links in my signature line so you can use them with confidence.

Ann

nadeau91 · « **Reply #28 on:** April 02, 2008, 09:39:37 am »

Just a short note of thanks to all here. It's great to know a site like this, with this level of expertise exists! The Internet just has way too much information, and frankly, you see things from 1998, 2003, 2007, today...it's hard to tell wat the new evidence is and what's rumor, so it's great to have you here. Thanks.

I have one question: All of the lessons and recommendations here, it seems, track very closely to European government recommendations and science. Our CDC, while close in their recommendations, calls kissing very "low risk" based on one case, but they don't recommend kissing as a safe activity (by kissing, it's a given to be french kissing...even Betty Boop wasn't that much of a saint).

Now, aside from all the Bush Administration comments that can surely be made about CDC, is there cause for worry there? CDC claims HIV in saliva? I never knew that. But Swiss and German officials say kissing is zero risk and HIV in saliva is not in amounts to be transferrable. What about small gum fissures, etc??

I have probably french-kissed 15 people in my life and I didn't perform a dental inspection for blood or ask their HIV status beforehand thinking I'd look a bit nutso over a kiss. CDC seems to imply one should ask!

Sorry for the questions...I am just curious, and want to know for the future so I don't need to dwell on every act. I've never, ever once had sex without a condom -- and I will always use condoms for intercourse. But now all the "it's possible" talk makes me worry...although "it's possible" the bungee can break on a bungee jump and I still tried that...

Thanks for advice.

Andy Velez · « **Reply #29 on:** April 02, 2008, 10:26:17 am »

Your own saliva contains over 14 elements which effectively render HIV, if present, ineffective. The CDC is just covering its butt by saying "low risk."

Now into the third decade of the epidemic, if kissing was a real risk we'd have known long before today. If you want to hold on to your fears and hang on to that ONE possible case of transmission that is your choice for personal torture. We've told you how we see things and what you choose to do or not to do is strictly up to you.

I strongly suggest that you get on with your life.

Cheers,

Ann · « **Reply #30 on:** April 02, 2008, 01:47:23 pm »

nad,

If you can't stop worrying over these no-risk scenarios, then you'll have to see counseling. We cannot help you further with your unwarranted fears.

If you've read the Welcome Thread like you're supposed to, you will have read the following posting guideline:

Quote

Anyone who continues to post excessively, questioning a conclusive negative result or no-risk situation, will be subject to a four week Time Out (a temporary ban from the Forums). If you continue to post excessively after one Time Out, you may be given a second Time Out which will last eight weeks. There is no third Time Out - it is a permanent ban. The purpose of a Time Out is to encourage you to seek the face-to-face help we cannot provide on this forum.

Please consider yourself warned.

Ann

nadeau91 · « **Reply #31 on:** August 21, 2008, 02:01:53 pm »

Hi All,

Quick question...it's not incidence related, but I would find a response useful...ive stayed with the original thread so as not to confuse things.

Re Oral, I've avoided performing oral since my last occurrence that did not require the testing...but some literature I've read recommends condoms for oral? I know there is risk from other STD's, but obviously the biggest worry is HIV. I also know what you recommend to people here, and it's sage advice. Do you recommend condoms for performing oral? In the real world, I just dont know anyone that does that...it's a bit of a joykill....

Also, is there any serious risk if you perform rimming? Assuming one gets the Hep A and B vaccines? Sites recommend plastic wrap, but again...it's sex, not a science project. Plastic wrap= joykill

I mean...I FULLY support and always engage in protected intercourse. But some people include rimming and oral as intercourse? Does HIV science support such claims?

What's your real-world advice on this?

Thanks!

nadeau91 · « **Reply #32 on:** August 21, 2008, 02:19:44 pm »

One additional rimming question...it is possible that people can bleed a bit (hemmorhoids, whatever...), and not to be graphic, but it's a legitimate question of curiousity...is this considered an HIV risk, and if no, why not?

Thanks!

Andy Velez · « **Reply #33 on:** August 21, 2008, 03:09:47 pm »

You can get as graphic as you need to be in order to make your question clear.

I've never known of a case of transmission in this manner. HIV is not an easy virus to transmit and perhaps more importantly your saliva contains enzymes and proteins which very effectively neutralize the HIV virus. So while I suppose theoretically it is possible that transmission could happen this way, in the real world of HIV it just doesn't happen from cunnilingus, rimming and such.

nadeau91 · « **Reply #34 on:** August 21, 2008, 03:17:29 pm »

Thanks Andy...I dont like to be graphic when it's sort of distasteful, but I suspect with rimming it's a not uncommon real world example, so I was just curious!

Your feedback makes me feel better. I'm careful to always use condoms for intercourse and to get what vaccines for Hep, etc. that I can...but some things just get awfully mundane if we use plastics, wraps, whatever for everything....it's important to know risk, because in a theoretical world one would be left to sit at home with no love life or be so paralyzed by HIV fears that one would be a terrible lover...

heck, we'd have to saranwrap tongues according to the CDC!

Thanks!

Andy Velez · « **Reply #35 on:** August 21, 2008, 03:30:01 pm »

Glad you found the exchange to be helpful. Yes, it is a fine balance to be maintained between playing safer and not destroying good and healthy sexuality in the process.

Cheers,

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Author Topic: Worried, please help.... (Read 28263 times)