Hiv and stigma

[tommy246]

What are your personal views on the stigma attached to being hiv positive.

[mecch]

What are yours?

[Dachshund]

Comes with the territory.

[smiteler]

what it tells me is how stupid and uneducated alot of people are!  

[Rev. Moon]

Been fortunate to have never experienced it myself either at work or in my personal life.  The only exception I guess would be a manhunt trick who freaked out at first when I disclosed, but still went for it (and kept calling me to the point where I had to be less than polite).

I guess Miami is quite open minded about this virus, as I know many people with HIV, and had dated a couple of pozzums before I became one, and all that I ever saw coming from other people was either kindness or a very mild form of fear (not outright rejection).  I'd say the same thing about other places that I have visited or where I have lived temporarily (NYC, Vienna, Spain, South America).

My experience is just one though, and I know that the stigma still exists in a more pronounced way out there, but I guess it comes with the territory as Aunty D said and it is always fueled by irrational fear.

[newbieguy]

As some have said, it comes with the territory, I supppose. There is still a LOT of stigma even within the gay community. So many guys always say "clean and d/d free ub2" and that kinda stings, but I am learning to just accept my status and hope that people will judge me for me as a person. I have not told any family members, or friends as of yet I feel I will know when or if the time is right to do that. Hope that more people take it upon themselves to get educated and not simply judge others for having HIV.

[tommy246]

What are yours?

Well i have only told my wife and brother and dont plan on telling anybody else . When i go to the local hospital for my 4 monthly visit i always hope i dont see anybody i know. Alot of people are still uneducated about hiv and i think it terrifies them . What are yours ?

[phildinftlaudy]

I don't worry about it - haven't really been affected by it at all.  Like Rev. Moon said, I live in Miami so it may be that it is a little bit more "open" here. 

I don't go around broadcasting my status - but  I also don't keep it a big secret,  If it is pertinant to a discussion I don't mind discussing it.  My supervisor(s) know, some of my work colleagues, my family (mom/dad, sister, brothers), close friends.

The only reason I don't let extended family know is out of respect for my mother and father - they worry more about stigma on them having a poz son then I do about being poz - Go Figure  - lol -

I typically am of the belief that if someone is bothered by my HIV status that is their problem not mine - I have accepted it.

[Rev. Moon]

I typically am of the belief that if someone is bothered by my HIV status that is their problem not mine - I have accepted it.

Troo dis.  Anybody who has an issue with it can lick me for all that I care.

[phildinftlaudy]

Troo dis.  Anybody who has an issue with it can lick me for all that I care.

and after they lick me they can then post endlessly in the AMI area     lol

[elf]

Basically, people think a person is just a virus, and that's it.
No one can change this, unfortunately... 

[Ann]

Basically, people think a person is just a virus, and that's it.
No one can change this, unfortunately... 

Not true at all. WE can change it. The more we hide, the more we have to hide.

[emeraldize]

I don't go around broadcasting my status - but  I also don't keep it a big secret,  If it is pertinant to a discussion I don't mind discussing it.  My supervisor(s) know, some of my work colleagues, my family (mom/dad, sister, brothers), close friends.

I typically am of the belief that if someone is bothered by my HIV status that is their problem not mine - I have accepted it.

These excerpts of Phildinftlaudy's post describe my actions and views. Plus, I speak to students and young women periodically with the hope of raising their awareness and not fertilizing stigma at the same time.

[newbieguy]

Basically, people think a person is just a virus, and that's it.
No one can change this, unfortunately... 

Unfortunately, Ive found this to be true with many people. They still think HIV is the plague and you have to be treated with kid gloves or something. Hopefully, with more education, people will begin to see HIV as a manageable, liveable condition, rather than a disgusting disease.

[Joe K]

When I became poz, there were poz folks who were harassed, had their homes burned, children turned away at school and shunned by the community. Churches did not want AIDS funerals and funeral homes refused to even handle poz bodies. Few hospitals accepted AIDS patients and the ones that did, were sorely underfunded and under staffed. People were terrified of poz people, because so little was known about this disease that was killing our friends in droves. If you were poz, you could be fired, evicted from your home and even arrested for spitting on someone.

You had the disease of the fucking queers and drug addicts and to many Americans, you got just what you deserved. We were ignored by Ronald Reagan and an uncaring public. Ryan White, a child with hiv, was persecuted at his school, solely because he was poz. There were people who thought poz folks should be quarantined or arrested or just shot.

That my friends, is stigma. There were no laws to protect pozzies from discrimination of any kind and most of us, suffered untold stigma in those early years.

Today, what I see is that some stigma still exists, but the consequences of being poz today are nothing when compared with history. I am not saying that stigma is acceptable, rather that you need to grow a thicker skin, when you are poz, if you ever hope to thrive. I became an AIDS poster boy in 1991, because I no longer cared if people would reject me solely because I was poz. It's the same thing today. If you believe that somehow you are less of a person, because you are poz, then you need to look inside to overcome that stigma.

All any of us can do, is to remain true to ourself and do what we feel is right. Stigma is one of those things, that need something to grab onto and if you refuse to be impacted by it, it can get no purchase.

[madbrain]

I have experienced stigma mostly in the gay community. It just freaks a lot of guys out. Which is strange given how prevalent the virus is in the community. I guess most people have a don't ask don't tell policy about it. This really needs to change. But I don't know what will.

[Miss Philicia]

By "gay community" do you mean internet hookups?  Because, I hate to break it to you, that's not all the "gay community" is.

I'd love some elaboration on this.

[tednlou2]

I have experienced stigma mostly in the gay community. It just freaks a lot of guys out. Which is strange given how prevalent the virus is in the community. I guess most people have a don't ask don't tell policy about it. This really needs to change. But I don't know what will.

From my experience, I've seen some of the most hateful remarks from guys who get around with several partners per month and bareback.  I think there's some projecting going on there.  It may be their way of dealing with their risky choices that causes them to say hateful things.  There is a disconnect with these guys who have bareback sex with strangers and have no idea of their status, but then say such awful things about people they know who are poz.  I mean, they could have been exposed to the virus several times and may actually be poz themselves.   

[madbrain]

By "gay community" do you mean internet hookups?  Because, I hate to break it to you, that's not all the "gay community" is.

I'd love some elaboration on this.

Of course I'm aware it's not only that. But yes, the worst remarks have come from potential hookups.

[Miss Philicia]

If your biggest HIV stigma issues are with one-off, faceless, nameless cock on your computer screen then I don't really know what to say about the hand wringing.  Like killfoile recounted a few posts back, this ain't much.

[jkinatl2]

I remember running my outreach organization from 1994 - 2000. Not a long time, i grant you. it was basically handing out condoms and doing safer sex displays at local gay bars. We would have donated lubricant in several different types, have people test it, figure out which was the best for them.

I remember several of our volunteers quitting because people were talking. Hanging out and doing all that AIDS work was starting tongues to wag. Being associated with the disease, even as a volunteer, left a person open for speculation, even discrimination.

It is a LOT better now than it was then. At least most of the roaches have hidden themselves in the corners of the internet, and spew their prejudice and hypocrisy under the cover of anonymity.

Being hurt for your honesty on an online personal site is inevitable. Honesty is rarely rewarded in that arena, whether it is your age, your weight, your HIV status, or your intentions.

Thing is, with HIV you have two choices. Don't ask/Don't tell/Don't infect, or disclose during a date, which is NOT a hook up, and which might mean a long road towards sexual intimacy, if it happens at all. The latter will make you feel better about  yourself, probably. But it is way more expensive and time-consuming.

An alternative is to put yourself out there. Volunteer for stuff. I have found that people who give back to, or participate in their community beyond merely consuming it are WAY more likely to get over an HIV status. They are smarter, and usually as hot if not hotter than an internet trick.

Want a jock? There are gay sports clubs in almost every major city. Want a science fiction geek? Gay book clubs in most of the major cities. Or, in smaller towns, you could be a peer counselor, and train to help other people. In that arena, you would meet other people, some of them who want to have sex with you. Or date you. Or even love you.

I abjectly refuse the notion put forth by some on this forum that there is no hope, that love is impossible, that HIV trumps everything. I know this to be a lie because, since seroconverting, my own average self (with a slight, regrettably brief detour into muscle-town from 1997-2002) has found both love and sex, in droves. Spades. Whatever.

I have been in a five year relationship. a three year one, and am entering year three of the third. And in the middle of that, there has been no shortage of stuff to do, or smart, funny, hot as all hell guys to do it with. Some were positive, some were negative. Oddly, my long term things have mostly been with HIV negative guys.

But I think that the stigma is largely, in the US at least, when one is in the vicinity of a larger town or city, what we make of it. And you know? If I had not lived in Atlanta or another large city, I certainly would have moved here (or a similar place) by now. Because uprooting is sometimes necessary to let a plant spread it's roots and grow.

Each and every one of us is, simply, where we are right now. If we don't like it, fundamentally despise it, if it is crushing us even. we have the ability to move. Not always uproot and leave town...

But make a friend. Volunteer. Get out there in the real world - and this is NOT it.

Just one small step at a time. The worst that could happen is that you made the world a better place.

[mecch]

Well i have only told my wife and brother and dont plan on telling anybody else . When i go to the local hospital for my 4 monthly visit i always hope i dont see anybody i know. Alot of people are still uneducated about hiv and i think it terrifies them . What are yours ?

Stigma sucks, and is within the expected human reactions to such a scourge.


I don't know how old you are, but in the 80's and 90's in the USA stigma was just crushing on top of the challenges of this deadly virus, like any other deadly disease.

It was a scarey fucking diagnosis in the 80's and 90's and when I dated HIV+ guys I told everyone when the positive guy said it was ok to disclose. This helped me personally educate myself, and find the support I needed to support my partners, and it seemed to make political sense for the gay community as well.  

Susan Sontag had published "The Way We Live Now" in 1986 and had just published Illness as Metaphor in 1988, I had that new book in my hands when I fell in love with a beautiful man, who didn't even know he was positive, but quickly got sick and died, by the time she published Aids and its Metaphors in 1989.

I think all HIV+ people should push to the limit of disclosure and education - the limit being where disclosure doesn't destroy their standard of living, for example.  (edited to add:  or yeah of course where disclosure could mean DANGER to yourself.)

A few years ago when I was HIV-, my ex became HIV+ and used the stigma attached to do a very nasty manipulation on himself, me, and our relationship.  I felt that when I became HIV+ I had to compensate, and accordingly shocked a lot of Swiss people, who value discretion, by disclosing when perhaps it wasn't necessary.  But I feel its necessary now to show how fucking mundane HIV can be, as well as how dire.  

In a sense, we have much more to educate the world about, because there is no "easy" HIV narrative, and people don't like to learn complicated stories.

[Granny60]

Not true at all. WE can change it. The more we hide, the more we have to hide.

That is not the reality everywhere though.  I happen to live in a community where pictures of the wackos in the white hats at the local KU Klux Klan meeting is still pictured on the wall in the the furniture store and would be glad to walk you in  and show you where they are.  In 2010 no less. For some of us it is just not safe otherwise. I realize it takes bold steps by many to rid us of stigma,  but I also live in fear for my black friends, my gay friends , and my poz friends.

[AlanBama]

I totally agree with Joe and Jonathan about the stigma of days past vs. today's  issues.   A thicker skin might help many... Miss P is correct, don't let someone's internet 'shunning' of you because you openly state you are poz make you feel "less" than anyone.  It is them projecting their insecurity and lack of responsible sexual behaviour that prompts many of these guys to say the mean things they say.

I also agree with Jonathan and Granny in that it is MUCH easier to be openly poz in a big city; where I live now, it just wouldn't work.   I do what I can (volunteer at my clinic, etc) but in my small town, I have to think of my physical safety.  If anyone caught Oprah's show last week where she revisited the town she went to in 1987 because a guy who was HIV+ went in a public swimming pool (in West Virginia, I believe it was) you could easily have seen what many of us experienced first-hand.   Unfortunately for many of us (esp. here in the South) redneck attitudes haven't changed all that much....

[Jeff G]

I live in Alabama also , I moved back here after being away for many years  . Like Alan I lived through the long ago times when being HIV positive in the south meant if people found out you were unemployable .

When I was outed as HIV positive in Alabama in the 80's I had no choice but to gather my things and move , I moved to chicago and from there I lived openly as a person living with aids . I was willing to work and found many people sympathetic willing to hire me , I made just enough for an apartment and food but I got by , a far cry from the life I used to have but a life none the less .

Stigma for me was being held back from achieving my full potential in life due only to the fact I was HIV positive .

I could care less about what happens on a hookup internet site , to me the politics of a horny mob is not true stigma , at least not from where I have been .  

[tommy246]

Stigma sucks, and is within the expected human reactions to such a scourge.


I don't know how old you are, but in the 80's and 90's in the USA stigma was just crushing on top of the challenges of this deadly virus, like any other deadly disease.

It was a scarey fucking diagnosis in the 80's and 90's and when I dated HIV+ guys I told everyone when the positive guy said it was ok to disclose. This helped me personally educate myself, and find the support I needed to support my partners, and it seemed to make political sense for the gay community as well.  

Susan Sontag had published "The Way We Live Now" in 1986 and had just published Illness as Metaphor in 1988, I had that new book in my hands when I fell in love with a beautiful man, who didn't even know he was positive, but quickly got sick and died, by the time she published Aids and its Metaphors in 1989.

I think all HIV+ people should push to the limit of disclosure and education - the limit being where disclosure doesn't destroy their standard of living, for example.  (edited to add:  or yeah of course where disclosure could mean DANGER to yourself.)

A few years ago when I was HIV-, my ex became HIV+ and used the stigma attached to do a very nasty manipulation on himself, me, and our relationship.  I felt that when I became HIV+ I had to compensate, and accordingly shocked a lot of Swiss people, who value discretion, by disclosing when perhaps it wasn't necessary.  But I feel its necessary now to show how fucking mundane HIV can be, as well as how dire.  

In a sense, we have much more to educate the world about, because there is no "easy" HIV narrative, and people don't like to learn complicated stories.

i agree hiv is mundane and easy to deal with chronic illness (if diagnosed early) my wife has a chronic illniss loads worse than hiv. but i would tell no one who did not need tto know i am hiv pos, it is very personal and each case is different , i live in small town and have young daughter i would not put herthrough this,

[wiwada]

Too stupid to live and too much of a slut to care.


 Under different circumstances I know that would be my thoughts . And now there is this HIV positve me and the old me and I can't bring them together.  It's like all the things I liked about me are gone and I'm left with all my flaws.  I'm doing a great job stigmatizing myself , I don't need other people do to that for me . It's been 5 months and I'm annoying myself because I can't seem to pick up my life .

[GSOgymrat]

I don't begrudge people for not being public about their HIV+ status, as it is often the most sensible course of action. However I applaud those who are brave, strong or foolish enough to be public regarding their HIV status. They are soldiers in the fight against stigma and it is their actions that will make life easier for everyone who deals with HIV.

[jkinatl2]

Too stupid to live and too much of a slut to care.


 Under different circumstances I know that would be my thoughts . And now there is this HIV positve me and the old me and I can't bring them together.  It's like all the things I liked about me are gone and I'm left with all my flaws.  I'm doing a great job stigmatizing myself , I don't need other people do to that for me . It's been 5 months and I'm annoying myself because I can't seem to pick up my life .

From my own experience and from what I have read on this site and elsewhere, the first year is the toughest. You will find the good things again. They didn't go anywhere. I think if you give it some time, patience, and that sense of humor I detected from your post, you will be ok.

[eric48]

there is no "easy" HIV narrative...

Right on!

Every day,  have this cursor swing in my head between

- you'll die (of a nasty thing you got yourself into...)
- you'll be OK (just like any other folks)

there is no "easy" HIV narrative... very true

Eric

[Granny60]

However I applaud those who are brave, strong or foolish enough to be public regarding their HIV status. They are soldiers in the fight against stigma and it is their actions that will make life easier for everyone who deals with HIV.

Well said

[madbrain]

Not true at all. WE can change it. The more we hide, the more we have to hide.

This thread merits more words than have been expended so far.

When I put "HIV POZ" on my license plate, it was mainly to fight the stigma.

2 years later, I still see people taking pictures of it on a regular basis  - I check my rear view mirror a lot while driving, especially when stopped. It happens to be almost only women doing so, interestingly. I wish I could have a conversation with them to see why they take the shots. But driving is not conducive to that.

I mostly wish that my public disclosure was common enough that it did not merit taking a shot. While the prevalence of cancer is about 10 times that of HIV in the US, it seems like the rate of public disclosure is on the order of 10,000 to 1 . When is the last time you heard someone disclosure a cancer diagnosis publicly ? Vs an HIV/AIDS diagnosis ? The lack of disclosure makes it harder for everyone of us. And I hope each disclosure makes it easier for others.

The stigma is assuredly related to the mode of transmission - usually sexual or through drugs nowadays. Even though almost everyone has unprotected sex at some point in their life, sex inexplicably continues to be vilified when it comes to catching an STD, and people are quick to condem those of us who caught HIV through sex, even though it only takes one sexual contact to catch it. I can't speak personally about drugs, but drug usage is not viewed positively either in general. Our society may not have a declared war on sex, but it most certainly has a war on drugs. The only ones who still get any symphathy these days are those who got it through transfusions, something that doesn't happen much anymore in this country. It's fair to say we would never have had HIV/AIDS legislation in the 1990s if Ryan White had been a gay man, even though the virus affected far more gay men in this country than transfusees (yes, I just made that word up).

[Granny60]

Mad,  I have to applaud you for having gonads made of steel to do what you do.  Some of us couldn't get away with that without  at the very least having our car keyed or worse.  As a person that was infected by transfusion, I can tell you with certainty, that there is little sympathy.  The questions range from how can you be sure that is how  you were infected, to comments that the blood supply has always  been safe because it is tested.  You are labeled a homosexual drug using prostitute whether it is true or not.  There is no use defending how you were infected because the whole problem is these moral  jackals  who want to condemn and label entire groups of people regardless. They have the same shitty attitude about all gay people and all people with addictions whether they are infected or clean;  doesn't matter if they are nice god loving hard working people or not.

[tednlou2]

This thread merits more words than have been expended so far.

When I put "HIV POZ" on my license plate, it was mainly to fight the stigma.

Mad, are these articles about you?  I'm impressed with your bravery to do this.

http://www.poz.com/articles/california_hiv_vanity_plate_1_15264.shtml

http://www.topix.com/forum/city/santa-clara-ca/T34PQMDB9RVHM23SJ    (Read the comments)

http://articles.sfgate.com/1996-11-05/news/17786976_1_kevin-dimmick-dmv-office-license-plate
This one talks about an HIV NEG plate being approved

[jkinatl2]

In 1993, I had a rainbow plate on the front of my car. It was destroyed not once, but twice, while I was in my apartment complex. Both times, the broken pieces were placed on the doorstep to my apartment. When I brought it to the attention of the manager, she shrugged and asked me if I wanted to break my lease.

It was that, along with testing positive, that gave me the impulse to start an HIV prevention organization, which ran from 1994 until 2000.

We find our strength through adversity. We can change the world, if we have the God Damned balls.

Having HIV sort of makes you reach down there, and find out.

[Rev. Moon]

Mad, are these articles about you?  I'm impressed with your bravery to do this.

http://www.poz.com/articles/california_hiv_vanity_plate_1_15264.shtml

http://www.topix.com/forum/city/santa-clara-ca/T34PQMDB9RVHM23SJ

Yeah, mr. Pierre is madbrain.

Lovely comments in that second link.  Very apropos for this thread.

[Jeff G]

I heard a rumor that those license plates are really advertisements from the makers of Aids and he is making a small fortune driving them around . 

[mecch]

Mad,  I have to applaud you for having gonads made of steel to do what you do.  Some of us couldn't get away with that without  at the very least having our car keyed or worse.  As a person that was infected by transfusion, I can tell you with certainty, that there is little sympathy.  The questions range from how can you be sure that is how  you were infected, to comments that the blood supply has always  been safe because it is tested.  You are labeled a homosexual drug using prostitute whether it is true or not.  There is no use defending how you were infected because the whole problem is these moral  jackals  who want to condemn and label entire groups of people regardless. They have the same shitty attitude about all gay people and all people with addictions whether they are infected or clean;  doesn't matter if they are nice god loving hard working people or not.

Mixed feelings about this post.  
Interpreted generously, I assume you are saying that one might expect bigots and/or uninformed people to give you a pass for the means of transmission.  But they are so stupid they can't manage that.
On the other hand, I feel that the general way to fight stigma is for all HIV+ people to raise their hands together to show the diversity, and for us to argue that transmission routes are apples, and HIV is oranges.  Its a stupid dumb virus - with no morals - and no pre-determined message to tell about people who are carrying it.  Its just a horrible virus.  

[GSOgymrat]

I heard a rumor that those license plates are really advertisements from the makers of Aids and he is making a small fortune driving them around . 

Small fortune? I'm racing to the DMV for my license plate and the large check. I'll even throw in a bumper sticker: "Want to avoid getting HIV? Ask me how!"

[klipsch]

Just out of curiosity...how many posters in this thread are straight?

[Miss Philicia]

Just out of curiosity...how many posters in this thread are straight?

At least three, though there are a few posters that I don't know and didn't bother to comb through their older posts.

[mecch]

Just out of curiosity...how many posters in this thread are straight?

Welcome to the forum. Introduce yourself?

[Ann]

Just out of curiosity...how many posters in this thread are straight?

Just out of curiosity, why does it matter? Are you hiv positive? Now that does matter as this forum is for poz people only.

[klipsch]

At least three, though there are a few posters that I don't know and didn't bother to comb through their older posts.

I only ask because on more than one occasion, one of the first things I heard after disclosing was "I didn't know you were gay". And on more than one occasion I responded with "Holy shit! I'm gay too?" I try to laugh about the whole presumption of being gay just because I'm positive. I'm not homophobic in any way and have quite a few friends and associates in the gay community. But the truth of the matter is that for a lot of straight guys...being thought gay is as bad or worse than being positive. It's one thing to be assumed to be gay because of whatever reason, be it appearance, behavior, associations...etc. Personally, I'm flattered when a man or woman presumes I'm gay based on my appearance. But...as soon as you throw being HIV+ on the table, it's not presumed...you're gay! Or...you had sex with another man at some point, because HIV is a gay mans disease.

[klipsch]

Forgive me not introducing myself. My bad. Yes I'm positive. I found out in 1998 about 10 minutes before being rolled into surgery for a hip replacement. Since then...it's been my experience that whether a person is gay or heterosexual, also relates to how the stigma of HIV/AIDS effects them emotionally.

[Ann]

But...as soon as you throw being HIV+ on the table, it's not presumed...you're gay! Or...you had sex with another man at some point, because HIV is a gay mans disease.

True, that. I have several straight poz men friends (and my current bf) who report the same thing. They all got it from women. There are many here too who automatically assume that a man who professes to be straight but is poz HAD to have been the recipient of unprotected anal sex. And these are people who should know better. After all, world-wide there are far more straights who have hiv than gay men. FAR more.

BTW, welcome to the forums. You've been a member here for quite a few years now, what took you so long to speak up?

[Rev. Moon]

Forgive me not introducing myself. My bad. Yes I'm positive. I found out in 1998 about 10 minutes before being rolled into surgery for a hip replacement. Since then...it's been my experience that whether a person is gay or heterosexual, also relates to how the stigma of HIV/AIDS effects them emotionally.

Welcome to the forums. Love your signature line  (it's emoticons day!).

[klipsch]

True, that. I have several straight poz men friends (and my current bf) who report the same thing. They all got it from women. There are many here too who automatically assume that a man who professes to be straight but is poz HAD to have been the recipient of unprotected anal sex. And these are people who should know better. After all, world-wide there are far more straights who have hiv than gay men. FAR more.

BTW, welcome to the forums. You've been a member here for quite a few years now, what took you so long to speak up?

Honestly? Because most of what I've read is coming from members of the gay community. I find it difficult to be able to partake in a meaningful discussion if the others involved can't relate to MY feelings. Just as I cannot relate to some of theirs. I know that we're all dealing with the same disease of HIV/AIDS...but the truth of the matter is, the different comfort levels of dealing and accepting what support there is available for those suffering.
My typing skills suck...and it makes it difficult to be able to put my thoughts and feelings onto a written format while still conveying what I'm attempting to say without somebody taking offense. This is the internet after all... 

[klipsch]

Let me just throw this out there as an example of my frustration. When I walk into an HIV/AIDS resource center (sorry...I don't know the lingo)...it pisses me the fuck off to no end, that I see bulletin after bulletin, posted on the walls...Gay Men's Support Group. There will be 4,5 maybe 6 at times. When I ask about what straight men are supposed to do in regards to support groups...I'm told that hetro men are welcome in those same groups as well. REALLY!!!??? And you think they'll show up and stay???!!!

Yeah...I've probably been quiet for a little too long... lol

[Ann]

Those resource centers are generally called ASOs. Aids Service Organisation.

Why don't you approach your ASO about starting a support group for straights? They may well be open to it if someone (you) will organise it.

By the way, the guy who started this thread is straight.

[jkinatl2]

At my doctor's office, there are bulletins for straight groups, female-only groups, and gay groups. I think it depends on where you live, and almost always needs one dedicated and courageous straight person to start the process.

[phildinftlaudy]

Hey klipsch -
I'm not sure what part of the country you are in (or if you are in the state) - I know here in Miami there are a couple of groups for positive heterosexuals. 

I agree with Ann, that if there aren't any where you are, you might see about starting one up - or at least finding some within close proximity to you.

By the way - welcome (I know you have been a member for a while - but nice to see you sharing).

-Phil

[Miss Philicia]

At my doctor's office, there are bulletins for straight groups, female-only groups, and gay groups. I think it depends on where you live, and almost always needs one dedicated and courageous straight person to start the process.

We have plenty here too -- I think Philadelphia has something like ~40% heterosexual transmission demographics currently.

[Hellraiser]

Honestly? Because most of what I've read is coming from members of the gay community. I find it difficult to be able to partake in a meaningful discussion if the others involved can't relate to MY feelings. Just as I cannot relate to some of theirs. I know that we're all dealing with the same disease of HIV/AIDS...but the truth of the matter is, the different comfort levels of dealing and accepting what support there is available for those suffering.
My typing skills suck...and it makes it difficult to be able to put my thoughts and feelings onto a written format while still conveying what I'm attempting to say without somebody taking offense. This is the internet after all... 

I have to say while you're entitled to your opinion I think you're really quite wrong.  I can relate to anyone who puts their cards on the table.  You're selling us short if you think we can't partake in some interesting discussion with you and give useful reasonable advice regardless of the differences in our sexuality or gender.  True enough gay men deal with a different level of stigma and assumption, it's still stigma and assumption.  I think if you opened yourself up to the discussion you might be pleasantly surprised.  As always I could be entirely wrong.

[jkinatl2]

I rarely, if ever, diYou may have to wade through bawdy commentary, but at the end of the day, you are no different from me than Ann or Jan. I am not a woman. I will never have the HIV experience that they do. But we have a shared communication, and I think a bond had been formed thanks in large part to this site - not just our shared virus.

Give the place a chance. We will surprise you. Shock you sometimes. Offend you, more than likely. But we are a tight group of people. We do not discriminate based on race, religion, gender, sexual orientation, or ability to dance.

Try reading through some of our LESSONS. They are way cool, and state of the art.

And look at some of the threads. We fight like cats, but we cuddle like dogs. And woe be it to people that hurt one of us, or threaten to. We mobilize like the fraking FBI. And we go from mutual insults to saving one another's asses in the blink of an eye.

No one gets out alive, it would seem, in this world.

But no one has to go it alone.

AIDSMEDS is a friend, if you want it to be.

[mecch]

Who can't relate to you freelings exactly?

Feelings are universal. There is no such thing as gay or straight or male or female feelings that one or the other can't "relate to".  

It clear you haven't found the community willing to hear you out, yet, but maybe also you haven't tried.  

Experiences are another matter. Someone might not have knowledge of other people's experiences (other sex, other orientation, other age, other ethnicity, other class, whatever).  So of course there are communities that fit better - depending on what you are looking for - something specific, or something without boundaries.  

The only thing in common here is that we all have HIV.  Plus a few HIV- with loved ones with HIV.  Otherwise, this is one of those communities without boundaries.  You could join in and carve out a territory of special interest with a few others, or take it as it comes generally.  

[klipsch]

Just wanted to post quick so that nobody thinks I'm bailing on this conversation. I have a pet emergency happening here, and need to bring my cat (Popoki) in for an ultrasound. I'll be back after. I'd appreciate any prayers...

[Ann]

Just wanted to post quick so that nobody thinks I'm bailing on this conversation. I have a pet emergency happening here, and need to bring my cat (Popoki) in for an ultrasound. I'll be back after. I'd appreciate any prayers...

Thanks for that - it can be frustrating when someone drops into a conversation and then doesn't reply to people's posts. Hope your kitty is ok. My cats are saying some cat prayers for Popoki.

I agree with some of the others that differing sexual orientations shouldn't mean that there isn't any common ground. We have several straight men here who participate regularly and get on just fine with the group. There are also a few of us women knocking around the place too.

When you think about it, the fundamentals of any human relationships are the same regardless of the genders or orientations of the people involved. Love and admiration, hate and loathing and everything in-between are all the same and are things we all experience. We do have common ground - it's called humanity.

[madbrain]

Mad,  I have to applaud you for having gonads made of steel to do what you do.  Some of us couldn't get away with that without  at the very least having our car keyed or worse.

Thanks. So far, my car is still in good shape after 2 years.

 As a person that was infected by transfusion, I can tell you with certainty, that there is little sympathy.  The questions range from how can you be sure that is how  you were infected, to comments that the blood supply has always  been safe because it is tested.  You are labeled a homosexual drug using prostitute whether it is true or not.  There is no use defending how you were infected because the whole problem is these moral  jackals  who want to condemn and label entire groups of people regardless. They have the same shitty attitude about all gay people and all people with addictions whether they are infected or clean;  doesn't matter if they are nice god loving hard working people or not.

Sorry to hear that I was wrong about transfusees getting sympathy. Hopefully, when homosexuality became more accepted, the stigma against all HIV+ people will be reduced.

Ultimately, we all have the virus, no matter how we contracted it. It only takes one act to contract it, whether it's receiving a transfusion, sexual contact, or IV drug use. Nobody should be so righteous as to expect everyone to always be perfect, whether us or doctors. They need to look in the mirror first.

[madbrain]

Mad, are these articles about you?  I'm impressed with your bravery to do this.

http://www.poz.com/articles/california_hiv_vanity_plate_1_15264.shtml

http://www.topix.com/forum/city/santa-clara-ca/T34PQMDB9RVHM23SJ    (Read the comments)

Thanks. Yes, the first 2 are.

[madbrain]

Just out of curiosity...how many posters in this thread are straight?

Why should it matter ?

[klipsch]

Just got back from the vet. They're keeping Po at least overnight (anemia) and I'm absolutely beside myself after having to sign a resuscitation order. 

It's funny, because I've been learning lately that when things seem like they're really bad in my life (I'm in a shit storm right now)...something comes along to make it 10 times worse. When whatever came along to make things worse works out, and things are back to when they seemed really bad...I'm grateful that it's all I have to deal with. That's kinda where I'm at right now.

I read the above comments before I took off this morning, and I do agree that at the end of the day we're all dealing with the same infection at different levels and stages. Back to where my frustration stems from. I'd been fairly involved with trying to put together a diverse support group some years back when I was the Chair for one of the area clinics CAB. There actually is an HIV Anonymous group that was put together about a year or so ago that is doing rather well and has been a great support for those affected by HIV and AIDS in the immediate area. While open to all regardless of age, race, sexual identity...etc...the couple of times I did attend...I was the only straight man in the room. Now I do understand that while there is only so much anybody can do to provide an open forum for all...whatever has been done...isn't working. What I'm told when I approach the people that are either responsible for these groups or those who actually facilitate these groups goes like this:

"We've posted bulletins in the exam rooms and throughout the clinic that we are attempting to put together support groups for the Gay and Hetero community. While we do get some interests from the different demographics, ultimately we have no straight men show up for the group. We can't do more than that with what we have for resources" Or..."The group is open to everybody. We don't turn anybody away or make anybody uncomfortable being here. It's pretty diverse, but people do come and go..."

Let's face it. There are more gay men that are open about being positive than straight men (please note that I said "open about their status"...not infected, as I can't quantify numbers here). So...that being said, the likelihood of a support group being predominately gay oriented is pretty high.
Personally...I have no interest in hearing "some" of the discussion that takes place in these groups. I understand sexual activities, but have no interest in hearing about cruising or hearing about how HIV has effected somebodies ability to hit the bookstores or prostitute on the streets. Is this true of everybody in the room? NO! But the whole HIV stigma reeks of those images...that's what was discussed in the opening of this thread. If I'm in a room and somebody starts talking about such things...I want to smack them upside the fucking head! Dude! You're in a room with a bunch of people that are infected with HIV and AIDS. What don't you get?!!! And YES...I do understand that HIV doesn't take away ones sexual desires, or put food and a roof over ones head, or provide the drugs that one may be addicted too. But...as a straight guy, I wanna be able to stand up in the middle of a room and say "I'm tired of being thought of as a gay man...and the fucking stereotypical image of standing on the street corner or hanging out in bath houses!!!" Is that stereotypical image fair to men that ARE gay? NO!!! But I have the right to be able to at least separate myself from the "Being thought gay" part!!! I'm not a homophobe. I don't judge what other people do sexually to get their rocks off...even if it involves farm animals. But give me the decency to not automatically be grouped into something I'm not! Picture if you can...being in a room, predominately filled with gay men, and standing up as a straight guy screaming that shit out. Comfortable is not a word that jumps to mind.
But...whatever groups that are available, are open to the hetero community as well as the gay community. There shouldn't be any problem...

I hope that I haven't offended anybody here. I've popped into these forums out of desperation. I'm not happy with what my life has become due to side effects of HIV meds and the virus itself. Suicide is a predominant thought on a daily basis, in spite of counseling and medications to treat my depression. I feel like my entire life is a lie, because I cannot let those around me know everything that I'm dealing with, out of fear of rejection. I don't know if jumping in here is going to help any...but it can't hurt

[phildinftlaudy]

Great post klipsch - you definitely know how to express yourself - and I for one, as a gay man, was not offended in the least - as you are merely stating your feelings and what is your reality in being a heterosexual person with HIV.

I really hope you stick around the Forums here and contribute your thoughts and experience.  I think that you will find yourself in time making some good friends on here - both straight and gay. 

While I don't think you will agree with every post - and some of the turns they take - I do think there will be posts that will make you be able to gain strength, comfort and support from seeing the similarities.

Thanks again for being open and expressing yourself the way you did in your post.  Also, I hope your pet gets well and back home quickly.

-Phil

[Rev. Moon]

Klip,

I'm with Phil on this one. Your post was very honest, clear, and not offensive at all.  In the end we are all just humans living with an unwanted passenger.  How we got this crap is absolutely irrelevant, but society is very quick at making assumptions once they discover a person's HIV status.

Now that you have opened up (and shown that you have some good thoughts to contribute) I hope that you do stick around --whether to seek advice, be foolish every once in a while, or have people that you can look to whenever depression rears its ugly head. We may get rowdy some times, but you have some great people that you can count on if ever needed.

Ps./ hope that Mr. Po gets well soon. I'll ask my feline companions, Ms. Lola and Lady Becks, to send him some good vibes. They happen to have a direct line to Bastet.

[water duck]

klipsch
 .............rejection might just show you who your true friends are.

as to : jumping in here is going to help any, it might not , but it will definitely obliged you to
'swim' instead of asking if  the 'water is too hot or cold or deep enough '

Wd

[Miss Philicia]

I actually found the parts of the post where there's seemingly a drawn line from gay men > prostitutes > farm animals a bit distressing, but I'll wait and see what klipsch posts are like down the line.  At least from his user name he likes a good quality audio speaker.

I've also been in plenty of support groups where at least half the gay guys are equally uncomfortable when a heterosexual attends the meeting, though personally I always welcome them and appreciate a diverse dynamic.  I also try to put on different shoes and think what I would think if I was the straight guy in this epidemic, and I can understand the sense of isolation though I think in many cases it can become circular and self-fulfilling.  I urge klipsch to at least seek out some one-on-one counseling, because the bottom line is that you need face-to-face opportunities to express yourself and it pains me to see someone not being able to locate something.

If you lived where I lived I'd be willing to assist you in this, but I don't know if you do or where you live -- if you're willing to disclose the information perhaps someone else here would be willing to look into opportunities that you may have missed in your searches.

[mecch]

Just wondering if you tried discussing that issue of everyone assuming you are gay, etc. etc, and your feelings about it, with the gay men in the HIV support group?  I could imagine that going either way, but I guess I want to hope the gay guys would respond to your expression well enough - just like the gay guys in this online forum. 

Gay guys with HIV also get tired of all the assumptions people make.  It's called stigma and stereotypes, thats for sure, and we all have to deal with it. 

[phildinftlaudy]

I actually found the parts of the post where there's seemingly a drawn line from gay men > prostitutes > farm animals a bit distressing, but I'll wait and see what klipsch posts are like down the line.  At least from his user name he likes a good quality audio speaker.

I've also been in plenty of support groups where at least half the gay guys are equally uncomfortable when a heterosexual attends the meeting, though personally I always welcome them and appreciate a diverse dynamic.  I also try to put on different shoes and think what I would think if I was the straight guy in this epidemic, and I can understand the sense of isolation though I think in many cases it can become circular and self-fulfilling.  I urge klipsch to at least seek out some one-on-one counseling, because the bottom line is that you need face-to-face opportunities to express yourself and it pains me to see someone not being able to locate something.

If you lived where I lived I'd be willing to assist you in this, but I don't know if you do or where you live -- if you're willing to disclose the information perhaps someone else here would be willing to look into opportunities that you may have missed in your searches.

Well stated Ms. P - I was wondering what resources might be like where "K" lives also...

[madbrain]

klipsch,

Just got back from the vet. They're keeping Po at least overnight (anemia) and I'm absolutely beside myself after having to sign a resuscitation order. 

Sorry to hear about your pet, I hope he gets better.

Let's face it. There are more gay men that are open about being positive than straight men (please note that I said "open about their status"...not infected, as I can't quantify numbers here). So...that being said, the likelihood of a support group being predominately gay oriented is pretty high.

There are more gay men infected also in this country. Also more gay men than women infected. So, of course gay men will make up more of the support group attendants.

Personally...I have no interest in hearing "some" of the discussion that takes place in these groups. I understand sexual activities, but have no interest in hearing about cruising or hearing about how HIV has effected somebodies ability to hit the bookstores or prostitute on the streets. Is this true of everybody in the room? NO! But the whole HIV stigma reeks of those images...that's what was discussed in the opening of this thread. If I'm in a room and somebody starts talking about such things...I want to smack them upside the fucking head! Dude! You're in a room with a bunch of people that are infected with HIV and AIDS. What don't you get?!!! And YES...I do understand that HIV doesn't take away ones sexual desires, or put food and a roof over ones head, or provide the drugs that one may be addicted too. But...as a straight guy, I wanna be able to stand up in the middle of a room and say "I'm tired of being thought of as a gay man...and the fucking stereotypical image of standing on the street corner or hanging out in bath houses!!!" Is that stereotypical image fair to men that ARE gay? NO!!! But I have the right to be able to at least separate myself from the "Being thought gay" part!!! I'm not a homophobe. I don't judge what other people do sexually to get their rocks off...even if it involves farm animals. But give me the decency to not automatically be grouped into something I'm not! Picture if you can...being in a room, predominately filled with gay men, and standing up as a straight guy screaming that shit out. Comfortable is not a word that jumps to mind.
But...whatever groups that are available, are open to the hetero community as well as the gay community. There shouldn't be any problem...

I see a contradiction between your fear of "being thought gay" and "I'm not a homophobe". There is no way "being thought gay" is worse than being positive . And if you feel the need to "smack them upside the fucking head", there is definitely something wrong. I also think the part about farm animals is offensive.
In a support group, people talk about themselves and their problems, whatever they are. Everybody is different and has their own. While the subject of sex does come up at support groups, if you want people to listen to you, I think you have to keep an open mind and listen to them too. Even if a couple of members of a group fit the sterotypes that you don't fit, I'm certain that not all of them do.

I hope that I haven't offended anybody here. I've popped into these forums out of desperation. I'm not happy with what my life has become due to side effects of HIV meds and the virus itself. Suicide is a predominant thought on a daily basis, in spite of counseling and medications to treat my depression. I feel like my entire life is a lie, because I cannot let those around me know everything that I'm dealing with, out of fear of rejection. I don't know if jumping in here is going to help any...but it can't hurt

Based on my experience at the support groups I have attended, I think you'll find much commonality with gay men that attend them. Those themes are frequently discussed.

[klipsch]

I'm heading out the door to go visit Po at the clinic. But I wanted to address the "farm animals" reference. I was more referring to my own practices. I mean, who doesn't keep a few farm animals around?   
Also...I've been receiving one on one counseling weekly for the past 7+ years. It's what keeps me sane (well that...and some meds...lol)

Thanks all for the well wishes for Po. So far so good...but he's there at least overnight.

 

[phildinftlaudy]

But I wanted to address the "farm animals" reference. I was more referring to my own practices. I mean, who doesn't keep a few farm animals around?   
 

See Klipsch, we aren't so different after all - LOL
That was a b-a-a-a-a-d joke....  gotta go feed the chickens - give Po a big kiss from the Forum Family.

[Granny60]

Klip,

I'm with Phil on this one. Your post was very honest, clear, and not offensive at all.  In the end we are all just humans living with an unwanted passenger.  How we got this crap is absolutely irrelevant, but society is very quick at making assumptions once they discover a person's HIV status.

 Well said Moon.
Klipsch: As a heterosexual couple we find some of the groups a little strange when  half the people in  the group are just there to to hook up or try to score some dope,  but on the other  hand we find the majority of our gay friends find those same people a little off base also.  It is a little hard to  sort out at first who still has  a head on their shoulders and  just wants to help everyone they can and live their life as normal and peaceful as possible, but let me assure you, they are out there. 4 of our best friends are 2 gay couples.  We will all do anything to help the other. We don't live close, but do travel to get together several times a month.  We help each other with  their problems, we  visit, we eat, and we understand each other. We come from completely different backgrounds,  but that also allows us to help each other because some of us has knowledge beneficial to the others when needed. In the end we are cemented together by two things.... our HIV status, and that we truly care about each other's well being.  We live in a very rural area,  out of  maybe 500 infected people maybe only 12 people show up  for group meeting's.  Out of that  dozen people maybe five would be willing to give you a meal, or a ride or cry with you when your partner is sick.  Give everyone a chance.  You will find there are gay people who will stand behind you and defend you and support you.  You will also find those who you will do the same for.  It is just like gardening,  you have to cultivate a relationship and  pull a few weeds, but in the end, there is the sweet nectar of a ripe melon that makes it all worthwhile. P.M. me if you need someone to listen.  Hope kitty gets better. Oh, and from having a long life of turmoil,  I have learned, the best way to handle when the shit piles up on top of you, is to tackle one problem at a time. Fix it, brush it aside, then tackle the next one.  If you  try to  handle them all at once it overwhelmes you and you never find the end. Each  individual success  gives you the energy to  defeat the next problem and more experience to boot.In the end, you will be proud of your accomplishments.  Be Well friend!

[phildinftlaudy]

Great post Granny - full of understanding, welcoming and warmth -- simply put, it was well stated.  Thanks - had some things in there that I needed to read as well.
-Phil

[Granny60]

Glad to be of some use. 

[phildinftlaudy]

Glad to be of some use. 

LOL
actually, i always get something out of your posts.   

[klipsch]

Just a quick one here, as I'm still kind of out of it with Po still being at the hospital. BTW...His red blood count is low, though lab work and ultrasound don't show anything that stands out to explain it. Labs sent out yesterday will be back this afternoon. They're checking his red cell count again today. On the bright side...no foreign matter or signs of cancer showed on the ultrasound. Still need to take xrays of lungs and heart. He's an indoor (him and his brother) cat, 8 years old and I've got full health insurance coverage on the two of them including cancer riders.

Back to address something that nobody probably picked up unless you were a very talented medium. I don't want anybody to get the idea that the straight/gay thing is black or white with me. I'm just angry, and have been since the days when I was the Chair for the CAB and trying to put together a group. The Co Chair who was a gay male, campaigned against the group because they weren't happy with the ASO that was offering their office space. Some crap about how the ASO was supporting or not supporting the gay community in a manner that he thought they should be. I was also accused by the same person to be starting a group so that I could meet guys. HELLO!!!??? After that...I faded out of the picture, and the CAB out of anger and frustration.
Since that time, as I mentioned previously...my experiences have been with groups being organized, and the apparent lack of concern for whether straight men had a place they could feel comfortable coming too. The individuals that I had spoken too were all from the gay community as well.
The underlying theme that developed in my head was that the HIV community (predominately gay) could give two shits about whether straight men were suffering in isolation living with what on a large part...due to BS stigma...is viewed as a gay mans disease.

So again...it's not a straight/gay thing with me. It's just anger that I feel is justified...even though I also understand that it could be my own efforts that are needed to effect the change I want to see. By hetero men not showing up...they are in fact creating the illusion that help is not required. I don't have the energy that I once had. I'm completely overwhelmed with where my life is at the moment with health and finance issues, and being left in limbo wondering if my SSDI to be approved.

I know that everybody experiences the stigma associated with HIV/AIDS. But does that negate the fact that some experience that stigma with feeling more ostracized than others?

[Jeff G]

Thanks again Klip for sharing how you feel with us . Your post has some really great points of view that I haven't considered before so I value it greatly .

Its also a gentle reminder of how far a little hospitality and respect can go to make people feel welcome and wanted here . I'm glad you are here and look forward to hearing more from you .

[Joe K]

Since that time, as I mentioned previously...my experiences have been with groups being organized, and the apparent lack of concern for whether straight men had a place they could feel comfortable coming too. The individuals that I had spoken too were all from the gay community as well.
The underlying theme that developed in my head was that the HIV community (predominately gay) could give two shits about whether straight men were suffering in isolation living with what on a large part...due to BS stigma...is viewed as a gay mans disease.

I'm glad you are sharing your feelings, however, I am very uncomfortable with your implying that gays have some form of moral obligation, to help straight pozzies, because of stigma. I'm sorry you feel stigmatized and now you know how I have felt for 56 years. I am a gay man and straight people have made my life a living hell for over five decades. It is not the fault of gays that the public vilified us as carriers of the "gay plague". The reason we have support groups, etc., is that we worked our asses off to secure funding and create and run said groups.

I've been involved with ASO's for decades and every group, ever started for straight folks, never succeeded because not enough people will attend. That is not the fault of gay people, or anyone for that fact, it is simply reality concerning certain types of support groups. I'm sorry if I appear harsh, but nobody every did anything for the gay community, when this disease started. We were considered expendable and treated horribly and sadly that stigma remains today, but gays had nothing to do with creating that stigma.

[Matty the Damned]

I'm glad you are sharing your feelings, however, I am very uncomfortable with your implying that gays have some form of moral obligation, to help straight pozzies, because of stigma. I'm sorry you feel stigmatized and now you know how I have felt for 56 years. I am a gay man and straight people have made my life a living hell for over five decades. It is not the fault of gays that the public vilified us as carriers of the "gay plague". The reason we have support groups, etc., is that we worked our asses off to secure funding and create and run said groups.

I've been involved with ASO's for decades and every group, ever started for straight folks, never succeeded because not enough people will attend. That is not the fault of gay people, or anyone for that fact, it is simply reality concerning certain types of support groups. I'm sorry if I appear harsh, but nobody every did anything for the gay community, when this disease started. We were considered expendable and treated horribly and sadly that stigma remains today, but gays had nothing to do with creating that stigma.

Spot on Brother Joe.

MtD

[klipsch]

I'm glad you are sharing your feelings, however, I am very uncomfortable with your implying that gays have some form of moral obligation, to help straight pozzies, because of stigma. I'm sorry you feel stigmatized and now you know how I have felt for 56 years. I am a gay man and straight people have made my life a living hell for over five decades. It is not the fault of gays that the public vilified us as carriers of the "gay plague". The reason we have support groups, etc., is that we worked our asses off to secure funding and create and run said groups.

I've been involved with ASO's for decades and every group, ever started for straight folks, never succeeded because not enough people will attend. That is not the fault of gay people, or anyone for that fact, it is simply reality concerning certain types of support groups. I'm sorry if I appear harsh, but nobody every did anything for the gay community, when this disease started. We were considered expendable and treated horribly and sadly that stigma remains today, but gays had nothing to do with creating that stigma.

Thank you for giving me a different perspective. While I'll never be able to understand what's gone on for years for gays...I'd like to consider myself willing and open minded enough to read, listen and try. I wasn't trying to pin the stigma associated with HIV/AIDS on the gay community. Society is fucking ignorant, and for the most part, has no desire to change. Please allow me to clarify myself. I'm not implying that the gay community has any such obligation to help provide support for "straight pozzies" Nor am I going  to say that the straight community needs to learn to accept that if it weren't for infected gay men starting the available groups, that there wouldn't be ANY at all. Neither scenario is realistic. I'm just fucking pissed off about the whole fucking thing, the way that it is TODAY in this moment. My dealings since being diagnosed in 98 have mainly been with members of the gay community at different levels and in different professions. So if I'm not overly fucking thrilled with what I've seen, I only have that exposure to base my experience. If I were black, suffering in a society of mostly whites, I'd be angry with whitie, based on any negative experiences predominately handled by the white community. It's all fucking wrong. I'm not minimizing anybodies feelings or experience...but I'm also not going to minimize my own.

Thank you again...

[Joe K]

Thanks for the clarification and I wish I had an easy answer for you. All I can suggest is that you contact an ASO and offer to start the type of group you would like. From my experience, problems arise, if you don't have a couple of people willing to be responsible to run the groups. You don't really need any special training to facilitate a group, just the desire to provide a safe and nurturing atmosphere, where people feel comfortable talking about their issues. At some point, you need to brush the stigma aside and decide on what is right for you. You want a straight HIV support group, then stand up and start one. All it takes is one person, to care enough, to get the whole thing started.

[Jayad]

The stigma that goes with being HIV positive sucks.  Especially those of us who are straight.  I am sure its not easier for a gay person, but I feel there is a different kind of stigma associated with being straight and HIV positive.  People assume automatically that I'm gay, I have no problem with gay people or care what people think, but it does suck.  I also feel that a negative gay man would more likely not have a problem with dating someone who is positive.  Finding a girl who is cool with an HIV positive boyfriend is a few far between. 

[Matty the Damned]

You know, people often assume I'm straight and it doesn't faze me one bit.

MtD

[Jeff G]

The stigma that goes with being HIV positive sucks.  Especially those of us who are straight.  I am sure its not easier for a gay person, but I feel there is a different kind of stigma associated with being straight and HIV positive.  People assume automatically that I'm gay, I have no problem with gay people or care what people think, but it does suck.  I also feel that a negative gay man would more likely not have a problem with dating someone who is positive.  Finding a girl who is cool with an HIV positive boyfriend is a few far between. 

Hi Jayad , Please don't think I'm trying to take exception with anything you are saying , I'm not , I'm just trying to better understand how straight people feel about HIV stigma and the perception by some that you must be gay if you have HIV .

Most people when they meet me assume that I'm straight and I have never been offended by that . If I'm hearing you guys right you feel being perceived as gay is stigmatizing in itself and there for adding to the burden you are already dealing with as a person with HIV .

Food for thought guys ... I guess we are more alike than we realized  , we are both dealing with the the same stigma form the same group of people where ever stigma exist .

[Miss Philicia]

I'm confused -- why can't a straight guy go to a heterosexual support group.  Yes, it might be 98% women but they are straight, you just need to make sure you there for support and not to meet prospective partners.

I see plenty of hetero groups, but I live in large city -- I've not been to one so I can't say how many straight guys are in them, but it just seems to me that the OP only wants a group with straight guys and I don't think he's going to find one outside of a very large city.

ps: has the OP stated where he lives or if in fact it's in and/or near a large city?

[wiwada]

As a woman I'm not sure I could open up in front of  real live men about intimate issues  .

[Joe K]

The stigma that goes with being HIV positive sucks.  Especially those of us who are straight.  I am sure its not easier for a gay person, but I feel there is a different kind of stigma associated with being straight and HIV positive.  People assume automatically that I'm gay, I have no problem with gay people or care what people think, but it does suck.  I also feel that a negative gay man would more likely not have a problem with dating someone who is positive.  Finding a girl who is cool with an HIV positive boyfriend is a few far between.  

I am confused by your comments. You start by saying there is a different stigma associated with being straight and poz and that people assume that you are gay. You then go on to say you have no problem with gays, nor care what people think, but it still bothers you. I would submit that you do have a problem with being perceived as gay and you do care what others think about you. Stigma, in any form, sucks and the sooner you stop caring about what others think of you, the sooner you will find that the stigma can no longer affect you. It's all a matter of perception. You know who and what you are, so why do you care what others think? I believe if you can answer that question, you may find the relief that you seek.

[klipsch]

I'm confused -- why can't a straight guy go to a heterosexual support group.  Yes, it might be 98% women but they are straight, you just need to make sure you there for support and not to meet prospective partners.

I see plenty of hetero groups, but I live in large city -- I've not been to one so I can't say how many straight guys are in them, but it just seems to me that the OP only wants a group with straight guys and I don't think he's going to find one outside of a very large city.

ps: has the OP stated where he lives or if in fact it's in and/or near a large city?

Are you referring to the real OP or has that switched to me at least in regards to the support group topic? Support groups aren't what I'm concerned about. I was only trying to explain where and when my anger and disdain originated. But I'm not going to get into a debate regarding straights and gays or the justification of actions by either group.
This thread is about the stigma associated with HIV. My original question was regarding "how many posters in this thread are straight?" To me...it appeared that some took offense that I even ask such a question. Let me say...that I can try my best to empathize with the stigma that gays have had to deal with for unheard of amounts of time. I will never be able to understand the anger felt that would produce this statement. "I'm sorry you feel stigmatized and now you know how I have felt for 56 years. I am a gay man and straight people have made my life a living hell for over five decades. It is not the fault of gays that the public vilified us as carriers of the "gay plague". I've been brought up in the society that produced that stigma as a straight man. However...I never did any part to contribute to it. Gays have been the brunt of jokes an humor for as far back as I can remember...with even recent comedy acts I've seen referring to Hell as a place where you will "Blow and get fucked up the ass for eternity by demons" (Louie C.K.). From an early age I was "programmed" to believe that "being gay" is the worst possible thing that could ever happen to you. I stated earlier in this thread that I have gay friends and associates. I dated a woman who identified herself as a lesbian when we first met for more than 3 years, and dealt with the disapproval from her friends and previous girl friends. It didn't create anger inside of me...it was only more experience that each of us is entitled to our own views and sexual preferences.
Just because I understand that it is unjust for society to shun a group of individuals based on sexual preferences...it doesn't mean that I want to make my life any more fucking difficult than it is already, by being thought of as something that I'm not. "I'm sorry you feel stigmatized and now you know how I have felt for 56 years. I am a gay man and straight people have made my life a living hell for over five decades" That is not my fucking fault. If there were a way to turn back time and correct it...I would certainly try. But to almost wish somebody else to feel the pain, anger and isolation that another has felt their entire life...isn't helping anybody trying to take an active roll on this board.

I don't want to attend support groups. I don't even want to think about being HIV+. I live in functional denial for as much of my time awake as possible...because my life is overwhelming now. I don't expect everybody in here to understand or accept my feelings about the stigma in my life created by being HIV+. I simply popped into a thread for the first time since I became a member here some time ago...because the title caught my attention and it's something I have direct experience with. If gay members of the board can't understand the problem I have with being automatically thought gay just because I'm HIV+...I don't know what else to say. Maybe it's because I've been brought up in a society that refers to Hell as a place where you will "Blow and get fucked up the ass for eternity by demons". Again...I didn't do anything to fucking promote that stigma! But I also don't want to be a part of it! I'm having a hard enough time with dealing and accepting that I'm HIV+...

[Jeff G]

I have been lucky to live long enough to get to a place where stigma cant hurt me anymore .

When I was a young boy I felt ashamed and stigmatized because I was gay and I wondered why me .
 
Just about the same time that I learned to love and except myself along came HIV with all of its ugly stigma attached and I wondered why me .

I guess since stigma is a real and alive wether or not you feel its sting I can understand how a straight man dealing with HIV stigma might take exception to being outed as gay when he is not .

[Joe K]

Again...I didn't do anything to fucking promote that stigma! But I also don't want to be a part of it! I'm having a hard enough time with dealing and accepting that I'm HIV+...

I never meant to suggest that you support any form of stigma against gays. What I was trying to do, is help you to understand that we all live under clouds, usually not of our making, but how to you choose to LIVE is all that matters. I believe I understand how you feel and it's awful that people make assumptions about us, that are not true. However, some people will probably always make assumptions, so your option is on how you react. Growing up gay, I developed a very thick skin and I learned very early a very important lesson. The only opinions I care about, are from people whom I respect, or from people who know me very well. Anything said, not by those groups, just rolls off my back. They do not know me, they do not know my life and they have no concept as to who and what I am, so why should I care what they think.

I think most of us here, understand your frustration, but we just don't have an easy answer for you. I hope you stay active in the forum, because you are a decent, caring man, who needs some help adjusting to being poz. We have all been there and if you look, there are many people here who share your same hopes, dreams and frustrations. With your life being as hectic as it is right now, maybe it's time to reconsider why this issue bothers you so much and find a way to cope. We can never stop people from making assumptions, we can however, change how we react to those assumptions. No it's not fair and it can be painful when others appear to look down on us. I simply choose not to be impacted, because I have real issues to address and the irrational musings of strangers is not one of them.

[klipsch]

Out of curiosity....does that "Hell" reference mentioned above, work for women and gay men as well? (lol)

Thanks for every bodies viewpoints so far...

[Jeff G]

That Hell is only for lesbians , gay men must spend eternity with straight men .

[Joe K]

That Hell is only for lesbians , gay men must spend eternity with straight men .

For it to truly be Hell, gay men must spend eternity with HOT straight men.

[Miss Philicia]

When I went to my Long Term Survivor support group tonight I saw a flier that was specifically for heterosexual HIV+ guys.  It meets once a month on Wednesday nights.

[next2u]

my aso caters to heterosexuals. there are a lot of straight men that go on the mixed night or substance abuse nights. we also have a brave hetero or two that come to our mens' group. it's like 98% gay, lol.

the mixed groups are where the heteros tend to go in so cal. by mixed i mean male/female. and most of the ladies are hetero too.

best,
d

[jkinatl2]

I honestly have not gone the group route for years and years. Being a bit of (to put it mildly) an isolationist, I would likely not - or at least have never found - those group atmospheres helpful to me. Well, with the exception of finding out that, though I may indeed be crazy, the mental issues regarding Sustiva (at the time, not documented nor taken seriously) were widespread. Nice to know it's not ALL me, in that regard.

But I get a lot of that here, now. And I don't have to change out of my jammies. And the food is better.

I think that if finding solidarity with other people that ignores the sexual orientation aspect is paramount, then finding (or starting) a tightly moderated group, where off-color or gay specific stuff is not the focus. We could go all day about Norvir and Isentress and Atripla and never ever venture into whose junk goes into where.

Granted, here some threads derail. But such is the nature. I understand the need to feel comfortable, and trust me, a quick look into the "Off Topic" forum reads like a primer for gay porn circa 1993. But ya know? It's also about pets we love who are sick or who died. And people gang ALL UP in each other's shit when that happens.

Take a look at WillyWump's thread about his very sick mother. We piled up on him like crazy. We often fight like feral cats, and sometimes hump one another's legs like unhousetrained puppies. But when push comes to shove (and who am I kidding? This is AIDS. Push ALWAYS comes to shove) we have one another's back, in a global way.

Personally, I like mixed groups like this one WAY more than ALL Male/All Gay groups. When I wasnt to feel judged or inadequate, I can always go to the gym.

I come here for information; that scant bit I can impart, and the generous wealth that others have to share.

[Jayad]

Well I feel I have offended people with my previous post and I apologize.  I am very new to this and still trying to figure it all out.  I have actually a great respect for gay people.  When I was first diagnosed I talked to several gay people on a gay dating website, this is before I discovered the forum.   They helped me through the first week by talking to them and asking tons of questions. We are all stigmatized in one way or another.  I don't want to make anyone mad in here.  I do apologize again.

[Matty the Damned]

Well I feel I have offended people with my previous post and I apologize.  I am very new to this and still trying to figure it all out.  I have actually a great respect for gay people.  When I was first diagnosed I talked to several gay people on a gay dating website, this is before I discovered the forum.   They helped me through the first week by talking to them and asking tons of questions. We are all stigmatized in one way or another.  I don't want to make anyone mad in here.  I do apologize again.

Naw, you ain't offended anyone, Jay. Believe me, you'd know if you had.

MtD

[klipsch]

Well I feel I have offended people with my previous post and I apologize.  I am very new to this and still trying to figure it all out.  I have actually a great respect for gay people.  When I was first diagnosed I talked to several gay people on a gay dating website, this is before I discovered the forum.   They helped me through the first week by talking to them and asking tons of questions. We are all stigmatized in one way or another.  I don't want to make anyone mad in here.  I do apologize again.

Dude...that original post was probably the best I've read in almost 12 years. It's nice to know I'm not imagining things.

Again...I'm not bailing on this thread. Here's the copy/paste from a couple of cigar forums I'm a member of. It's just too much for me to get into right now...

My cat Po (Popoki) has become really sick. I brought him to the vet last Thursday night, and blood tests came back showing that he had anemia. What they didn't show was why? Po went into the hospital last Friday to get an ultrasound of his lower abdomen, to check for bleeding, masses...and whatnot. There was swelling in his stomach and his intestines...but more blood work didn't explain why. It's been thought that he has pancreatitis...and we're waiting on more lab work to come back hopefully by tomorrow. Po came home last night, because he hadn't eaten since last Wednesday, and we wanted to see if it was just because he was really scared at the hospital. He did eat, but I brought him back today because he was dehydrated and felt that they could provide better care. Now they're talking exploratory surgery to do biopsies for cancer or some other medical problem. Estimate for open surgery is $3700 and they can't guarantee anything. I have pet insurance...but they can't tell me what they'll reimburse...until they have a final diagnoses. I'm about $2500 into this already. I always told others that pet insurance would keep you from having to make a decision based on whether or not you have the finances to provide your pet the medical care they need...but that's exactly where I'm finding myself now. And I don't know what to do... 

[BT65]

Sorry about your kitty, Klipsch.  I hope something gets solved soon, and she doesn't have to suffer too much.

[Realist]

Stigma, alive and well.

http://perezhilton.com/2010-10-02-korean_mothers_form_union_to_protest_gay_storyline_on_tv_drama_life_is_beautiful

[Granny60]

A resource guide would be extremely helpful, even for those of use that have had to deal with this for a long time. We  recently completed a survey here in Missouri and the most responses to the question what  can case management do that would help you the most was  people writing in that we need a resource guide  to assistance programs and some explanation how these programs work.  Our local case manager has asked several of us to write a guide. It would help if we had a copy of HER handbook,  then we could add whatever sources we have found and edit it into an easy to understand format. Most of us in rural areas are on our own navigating programs due to a high case load to case manager ratio,  long distance to resources, and a lazy ass attitude by some caseworkers who will actually tell you that you need to find your own help so you will develop skills enough to be self sufficient. When you are newly diagnosed, it is often a traumatic experience that many are ill prepared for, then add on top of it,  being tossed into a tornadic  whirlwind of miss information, no information, don't give a shit attitudes, and  program cross compliances can drive you into a hole that takes years to climb out of.

[weasel]

     Living in a very small  Ozark Mountain  Enclave'   ,   I WAS  OUTED BY THE HEALTH DEPT .

   Things have NOT been the same !

   These people are ignorant hateful  Bitches !   Yes I say   Bitches cause the women are the ones

     with the hangups about HIV / AIDS  !   

     Most of the men  Do NOT  realize I am   the HIV   person they  ALL  HEARD ABOUT  .

      I can NOT even go to the Garden Center without being treated like a peace of shit !

      This topic  really hits a nerve !

       I have to worry about some  FOOL  burning our home down 

       The ignorant woman at the gas station asked IF SHE WERE GOING TO GET AIDS FROM MY

         MONEY          ,  WHAT A FOOL !


         I was thrown out of RYAN WHITE for being a whistle blower !

        All I can say is it is DANGEROUS  to disclose ,and HAVING THE HEALTH DEPT. DO IT FOR YOU IS EVEN MORE DANGEROUS !

 I AM STILL PISSED !
                                                      signed , afraid for my loved one and home , Carl
       

[Poz Brit]

Personally, I don't do stigma, if someone is not happy with me in there presence, thats there problem. if they choose ignorance, again thats there problem.
 My virus and I go and do as we please, if there is a concern then keep away from me. they can wag a finger mumble to each other thats up to them. as I said, "not my problem". their ignorance could lead them in to my world.
 After all, i'm hetro, I got it. it's a human virus not specific to one group/gender, it's an open club, open to all, the joining fee is a bit high, perhaps afforded by the ignorant, but hey, met so many lovely people from all walks of life, all with this common cause.
There again I,m in the UK, most here are excepting, in my experience.
   

[midland moe]

There is one support group at the AOC in my city...positively straight...but it meets at like 3 pm on a weekday so im at work. I was diagnosed in '08 and my knowledge of HIV was almost nil...if you asked me if Id date a poz woman (if i wasnt married) back then Id have said NO, or maybe she better be a 10+ rich  blind nymphomaniac who owns a liquor store with HIV but even then maybe not...

I read somewhere a survey of women in america asked if they would consider dating someone who is HIV+ and 95% said no. Facing being single again for the first time in 10 years, 15 really, and first time ever being single and HIV+ Id say the stigma is enormous...

My looks alone thinned the potential dating pool before this 19 out of 20 right off the top....

stigma. alone.

[RapidRod]

Never have had a problem with being gay or having HIV/AIDS here in redneckville.

[Matty the Damned]

Never have had a problem with being gay or having HIV/AIDS here in redneckville.

Well Farmer John, maybe you should try telling them you're a fairy with butt flu and see how things go from there.

MtD

[RapidRod]

Well Farmer John, maybe you should try telling them you're a fairy with butt flu and see how things go from there.

MtD

Matty it's common knowledge around here that I have AIDS it isn't something you can hide plus doing discussions in schools makes it that much more public.

[Matty the Damned]

I'm sure you're the talk of Walton's Mountain, Roddles.

MtD

[RapidRod]

I'm sure you're the talk of Walton's Mountain, Roddles.

MtD

Hell I was the talk before people knew I was gay let alone having AIDS. Living where you know everyone and everyone knows you does have it's advantages. 

[leatherman]

Never have had a problem with being gay or having HIV/AIDS here in redneckville.

I didn't have any issues in Ohio either. I didn't even have problems with any of the hospital staff (in the Catholic hospital) when my partner was gravely ill.

And I've been incredibly, and pleasantly, surprised here in South Carolina. I've been manning the exhibition booth my ASO sponsors a bunch this summer, and we've been going into a lot of churches (of all persuasions) lately (along with a ton of city and county fairs and festivals). Not only are the people incredibly polite when I chat about my own situation (although I do have to disabuse them of referring to me as an "AIDS victim") ; but they're reasonable enough to understand why I'm passing out condoms inside their churches.

[Granny60]

Dearest Carl,  I hope things get better. You are always welcome here. We  don't have an HSI checkbook,  but we are friendly people and have lots of fun. See ya soon, I hope!

[Granny60]

Carl, start spreading the rumor that you recently found out that your place was a former  witch burial ground in the 1800's and is haunted! Lot'sof strange creepy things are happening.  Nobody will come around.  forget the nursery. I will bring you some purple cone flowers  (echinacea) and a tulip poplar tree in 4(?) weeks. Sharpen your shovel  or pick.

[Poz Brit]

Some times, well, it seems to me that stigma is manly perpetuated be the institutions set up to help those with HIV also the ones suffering this virus, as many seem to see it as a way to demonstrate Dramatic Royalty.

Stigma is ignorance. Do you really want to know ignorant people? My self I don't so I don,t hide behind a vial of secrecy and untruths that help breed ignorance and stigma, (but then this is the UK, we just get on with what life throws our way) Here in the UK we have a lot of African People talk to them about HIV, it's not stigma, it's the way of life, you got it so you got to live with it.

I probably know most of us HIV'ers in this city as we all go to the same clinic. I would bet money the majority HIV+'s have HIV- partners. weird that?

If we as Sufferers can,t educate the HIV un-educated who is going to? can it be left to HIV Neg's. do they really know HIV like we do? will they dispel the myth? are they able to tell it how it really is?
There is nothing like the old words, Horse and Mouth.     

[Realist]

I probably know most of us HIV'ers in this city as we all go to the same clinic.

Which city is that?

[Poz Brit]

Sorry I wish to keep that information private.

[Poz Brit]

Leatherman. I am so pleased you find it the way you describe. I do think society is gaining acceptance of HIV/AIDS. we have to look to the future, not the dark early days of GRID. It's not a gay virus, it is a human virus no one sect owns it. It's still spreading and will do, mainly through ignorance and it can't possibly happen to me attitude.
 It has been said if every one used condoms we would see the end of transmission in a few years, unfortunately every one never will. Mavericks still exist.
 I do believe that there is a lot of HIV+ that enjoy their status and need the label. with out it they are just mr/miss/mrs/ms normal, and god help their day when there is a cure?
I commend you for your stance by taking HIV into society and putting yourself on the line. I wish more were like you. instead of the bleater's that pump the same rhetoric of how no one is doing anything for them and woo me.   

[jkinatl2]

 I do believe that there is a lot of HIV+ that enjoy their status and need the label. with out it they are just mr/miss/mrs/ms normal, and god help their day when there is a cure?

Wow.

[leatherman]

Leatherman. I am so pleased you find it the way you describe.

to be honest when I came out, in North Carolina, back in 1982 I never came across much homophobia either besides a few muttered "faggots" from some rednecks in store lines; and of course, from the Baptists telling me I was going to hell. LOL However, since none of those jerks has ever paid my bills, I've never cared what the hell they thought about me anyway. LOL

Now 2 decades have gone by and there's been progress. Why now even my classmates from my Christian (fundamental Baptist) high school are asking me to show up this upcoming weekend for our 30th year class reunion, which I've thought was pleasantly amazing of them. We've been chatting through Facebook and I've made no bones about being gay, having AIDS, losing two partners nor about all the volunteer work that I've been doing for my ASO.

now, I do receive a little bit of odd vibes when I chat with people sometimes. The other day I had to disabuse the high school media student that interviewed me for their student-produced television channel of the notion that I was an "AIDS victim" (maybe when I was nearly dying of PCP LOL but not nowadays). And sometimes these church people I meet, shake my hand too long and seem to give me too much sympathy like they might give to some dying cancer-patient. But those kinds of receptions are based on kindly ignorance, and with a little instruction, I help those people understand not only transmission vectors but just how well the meds can work when someone is treated in time, properly, and consistently (that's why continuing ADAP/access to meds is essential).

I also need to point out that the situation is a little different here in SC. With 73% of hiv cases being African-Americans and 29% being female, AIDS isn't a "gay white male" disease in this state; but it is a disease tied more closely to poverty than sexuality.

of course, I may just be lucky that I haven't crossed paths with the right bigoted asshole yet;
but I definitely believe an amount of being out and proud puts a lot of stigma/homophobia in it's place.

[Joe K]

I do believe that there is a lot of HIV+ that enjoy their status and need the label. with out it they are just mr/miss/mrs/ms normal, and god help their day when there is a cure?

Would you please explain what you mean by the above statement? Are you suggesting that there are poz folks, who actually enjoy being poz? That they need the label of being poz, to be complete? That anyone would dread the day a cure is found for HIV? Surely you cannot be serious?

[Poz Brit]

Yes I am serious. It is now there life, their social structure is built around their disease. Hiv is now the foundation that underpins that life. It happens with a lot of illnesses. With out it the benefit stops the care stops the support stops, and the sympathy stops. The later being the worst to loose.

We had two cases, who used HIV support services claiming to have HIV. Later stating they needed the sympathy and the support for  housing and were neg.
 
 Now, on the other hand. Are you trying to tell me that some don,t milk it, that they are genuinely concerned about some of the things they post on? Drama comes to mind, make a splash see how far the ripples go.

Here in the UK Lipodystrophy is next to unheard of for newly diagnosed due to modern day medication, but there are still some new arrivals bleating on about there unfounded worries, One fella I know wished he could get it, as he misguidedly thought it would help him loose weight, as he could not adhere to diets?
 
The fact of the matter is we are all not the same, also ignorance and stupidity doe's not cease after diagnosis, but Drama Queens live for ever.

[Ann]

PB, that's some chip you've got on your shoulder. Is that a side effect of one of your meds?

[Realist]

My self I don't so I don,t hide behind a vial of secrecy    

Sorry I wish to keep that information private.

Oh, ok.

[Matty the Damned]

Yes I am serious. It is now there life, their social structure is built around their disease. Hiv is now the foundation that underpins that life. It happens with a lot of illnesses. With out it the benefit stops the care stops the support stops, and the sympathy stops. The later being the worst to loose.

We had two cases, who used HIV support services claiming to have HIV. Later stating they needed the sympathy and the support for  housing and were neg.
 
 Now, on the other hand. Are you trying to tell me that some don,t milk it, that they are genuinely concerned about some of the things they post on? Drama comes to mind, make a splash see how far the ripples go.

Here in the UK Lipodystrophy is next to unheard of for newly diagnosed due to modern day medication, but there are still some new arrivals bleating on about there unfounded worries, One fella I know wished he could get it, as he misguidedly thought it would help him loose weight, as he could not adhere to diets?
 
The fact of the matter is we are all not the same, also ignorance and stupidity doe's not cease after diagnosis, but Drama Queens live for ever.

It's sad when folk end up like you.

MtD

[Poz Brit]

I am very sorry Ann, I did not realize that "some" meant "All". Some meaning, a few, a small number, and you can honestly say that in your vast experience of moderating this site this perception has never crossed your mind? it's a big world out here, anything goes.

my meds are fine, thank you. as for chip? well you see life one way I see it another. variety is good. 

[jkinatl2]

Once again, my instincts are correct. And those who ally with such a creature should be aware that they are, if not next, at least in line for the chopping block.

Wow. Just wow.

poz Brit, when someone claims that YOU are one of those you disparage, who will speak for you? An activist? A case worker? Someone who, I daresay, relies on HIV for a living?

Or will you be alone. With no secrets, except of course who and where you are.

Good luck with that. I reserve my support and sympathy and efforts for those who give the same to others without such hateful caveat.

[Poz Brit]

Thank you for your reply your most welcome. you may need to get out a bit, living in an insular world is no good for you. Not all people are wonderful there are crooks, cons, BSers in all walks of life and HIV is no different.
 Forums, I thought, were for airing ones views, I am so sorry that I did not realise that there was a common hyme sheet on this forum that must be adhered too.
 
I am also sorry for redirecting this thread on Stigma, perhaps this needs another thread?

Like it or not. I have not had any issues with stigma. apart from reading about it on here and listening at a few support groups and frankly the subject has a few dramatic comments, very tongue in cheek. 

[Poz Brit]

Oh, one other note to Mr Damned, what ever it is you are saying is fine by me. you have been on Ignore for many years now. After all that is what the button is for, to extinguish the churlish and annoying.

[Ann]

Forums, I thought, were for airing ones views,

They are and we did. You aired your thoughts and we aired ours. See how that works?

I am so sorry that I did not realise that there was a common hyme sheet on this forum that must be adhered too.

There isn't. That's part of what makes this forum a dynamic place for learning and growing - we can agree to disagree and maybe log out with a slightly different perspective than we had when we logged in.
 

Like it or not. I have not had any issues with stigma. apart from reading about it on here and listening at a few support groups and frankly the subject has a few dramatic comments, very tongue in cheek. 

I haven't had many issues with stigma either, which is surprising when you consider I live on the Isle of Man. They only legalised homosexuality a little over twenty years ago here. One of the more lenient punishments you could get was to be birched in public.

When I was first diagnosed I was terrified someone would set my house on fire, but it never happened. People here have been great. I'm very open about my status and have never had any problems where having a sex life is concerned either.

But you have to understand that we're lucky. Not everyone has had our experiences. Count your blessings and try to find compassion for others who haven't had as good an experience as you and I have had.

[BT65]

Poz Brit, I don't understand where all your hatred comes from.  Did you try to get some services, but got turned away because of being so healthy, so you're jealous that others who are not in such good health can maybe get those services you were denied?  I mean, it makes no sense, why you get so seethed up about others who are having a harder time than you.

[Poz Brit]

There seems to be a small cartel who see them selves as custodians of the myth perpetrated by them selves, the truth as they see it and are comfortable with. based on longevity of the virus and forum. Sheep on the front line yet wolves in the pack. One moves, all move, one attacks, all attack? Yet blinded by their provincial, illiberal world. The consequence of this being many looking for support go else wear, as are to nervous to stick a head above the parapet. There are many who need help and are embarrassed to seek out one on one help, so turn to boards such as this only to be shot down for the misunderstanding of the words used. English is a fascinating language with it's facets of double entendre, but one mind chooses and the pack moves in.
With regard to my previous posts there is a saying, “if the cap fits, wear it”, perhaps some are unhappy as they found they had head attire.
Perhaps the lack of expletives unnerves the said echelons of protagonists. Ahh do hear the distant rumble of the flock also whaling and howling, gather brothers tis time to attack.

[red_Dragon888]

Thank you for your reply your most welcome. you may need to get out a bit, living in an insular world is no good for you. Not all people are wonderful there are crooks, cons, BSers in all walks of life and HIV is no different.
 Forums, I thought, were for airing ones views, I am so sorry that I did not realise that there was a common hyme sheet on this forum that must be adhered too.
 
I am also sorry for redirecting this thread on Stigma, perhaps this needs another thread?

Like it or not. I have not had any issues with stigma. apart from reading about it on here and listening at a few support groups and frankly the subject has a few dramatic comments, very tongue in cheek. 

  OOOhhh  Get her!!!

[red_Dragon888]

Please, tells what you really think...

[Matty the Damned]

There seems to be a small cartel who see them selves as custodians of the myth perpetrated by them selves, the truth as they see it and are comfortable with. based on longevity of the virus and forum. Sheep on the front line yet wolves in the pack. One moves, all move, one attacks, all attack? Yet blinded by their provincial, illiberal world. The consequence of this being many looking for support go else wear, as are to nervous to stick a head above the parapet. There are many who need help and are embarrassed to seek out one on one help, so turn to boards such as this only to be shot down for the misunderstanding of the words used. English is a fascinating language with it's facets of double entendre, but one mind chooses and the pack moves in.
With regard to my previous posts there is a saying, “if the cap fits, wear it”, perhaps some are unhappy as they found they had head attire.
Perhaps the lack of expletives unnerves the said echelons of protagonists. Ahh do hear the distant rumble of the flock also whaling and howling, gather brothers tis time to attack.

Oh yawn. Why is it when someone gets called out for making fatuous and overtly incendiary comments in this place he immediately starts whining about some nefarious cabal conspiring to suppress his right to express himself?

Simply put it's humbug and cant of the most hypocritical sort.

You haven't been stopped from expressing your odious opinons. What you need to remember is that freedom of expression doesn't mean freedom from response.

MtD

[red_Dragon888]

Oh yawn. Why is it when someone gets called out for making fatuous and overtly incendiary comments in this place he immediately starts whining about some nefarious cabal conspiring to suppress his right to express himself?

Simply put it's humbug and cant of the most hypocritical sort.

You haven't been stopped from expressing your odious opinons. What you need to remember is that freedom of expression doesn't mean freedom from response.

MtD

Freedom of Speech... Can't live with it, Can't Kill it...

[Poz Brit]

Ann, may I apologise I posted before reading your reply that I thank you for and have taken your words on board.

 My statement I feel has been taken out of context and misconstrued, there ARE people I personally know who would rue the day a cure came. They are well, reasonably active doing nothing, all that would end, they would be forced to find employment and life as they know it and are comfortable with would change. I offer my apologize to any  whom may have misunderstood. But stand by what I have said.   

[Poz Brit]

Unfortunately Mr Damned never fails to be predictive, You Sir, carry the mantle of Drama to the core. Posts of many years ago moaning on about not wanting to take meds, what was that about, needed a little focus in your life? Then your boasting on how you can take your elicit drugs, that was a good roll model for the young wanting some support. You really deserve your crown. As previous post, if in was not for some one copy /pasting thrusting your innocuous statement in my face.  you are as said, on ignore, again churlish, vicious, bully boy, enough said good day.

[Ann]

PB, sure, there are people in every walk of life who abuse the system. They are not in the majority.

When someone comes into a place like this where you have quite a few people who are legitimately disabled and start complaining about the minority who abuse, you're bound to get some backs up. And that's because people who don't know their personal circumstance rant about people who are milking the system. It gets tiring having to defend yourself just because of the few selfish ones who manage to ruin it for everyone.

I don't know of anyone who is legitimately drawing Disability or Incapacity who would not rather be out earning a living wage. Living on benefits is hard work. Hard work in that you have to budget every penny and decide whether you will be hungry and warm or cold and fed.

And I suggest you stop trying to engage in flamewars with anyone here. Surely you can get your arguments across without name calling?

[Ann]

And by the way, you've been on this forum all morning. Are you sat at home "milking the system" yourself, off sick, at work pretending to work, or on holiday? Not a criticism, just an observation that made me curious.

[Poz Brit]

Yes Ann I have been on here all morning. When you are physically Disabled unable to walk have to use a wheelchair and your hands pack up so can't even push your self, feed your self and are reliant on others, life does get a tad tedious. This is not purely down to HIV more genetics.When some come across as milking the system with nothing but a need for sympathy or to make a trivial point , yes it gets my back up. I am OK and quietly content in my disability and HIV status, after all I started life with mobility problems was operated on, that provided rest-bite for a couple of decades but now back to minus square one. I work hard with the ability I have, helping disabled and HIV infected people who are trying to cope. Seeing able bodied, complaining that life is tough does not bode well when you are with some of these sorry souls. there are always more worse off than you. In this day and age HIV is a livable virus, but then there are the woe me's. any way enough said.   

[james3000]

Poz Brit

I do not know what makes you the Judge and Jury of people on disability !!
Maybe HIV is not the only problem a person has there are hidden problems that you cannot see, maybe they don't talk about it too you as they are afraid of your judgement.................
The fact is Hiv/Aids is still killing I just lost a friend this year because of mental issues, addiction and med taking.
Is it that you only see physical disability as valid ?

[joemutt]

Yes Ann I have been on here all morning. When you are physically Disabled unable to walk have to use a wheelchair and your hands pack up so can't even push your self, feed your self and are reliant on others, life does get a tad tedious. This is not purely down to HIV more genetics.When some come across as milking the system with nothing but a need for sympathy or to make a trivial point , yes it gets my back up. I am OK and quietly content in my disability and HIV status, after all I started life with mobility problems was operated on, that provided rest-bite for a couple of decades but now back to minus square one. I work hard with the ability I have, helping disabled and HIV infected people who are trying to cope. Seeing able bodied, complaining that life is tough does not bode well when you are with some of these sorry souls. there are always more worse off than you. In this day and age HIV is a livable virus, but then there are the woe me's. any way enough said.  

I think its highly unfair that you should kick at people who are worse off than you. Really. Their lives are hard enough already.

[Joe K]

There seems to be a small cartel who see them selves as custodians of the myth perpetrated by them selves, the truth as they see it and are comfortable with. based on longevity of the virus and forum. Sheep on the front line yet wolves in the pack. One moves, all move, one attacks, all attack? Yet blinded by their provincial, illiberal world. The consequence of this being many looking for support go else wear, as are to nervous to stick a head above the parapet. There are many who need help and are embarrassed to seek out one on one help, so turn to boards such as this only to be shot down for the misunderstanding of the words used. English is a fascinating language with it's facets of double entendre, but one mind chooses and the pack moves in.
With regard to my previous posts there is a saying, “if the cap fits, wear it”, perhaps some are unhappy as they found they had head attire.
Perhaps the lack of expletives unnerves the said echelons of protagonists. Ahh do hear the distant rumble of the flock also whaling and howling, gather brothers tis time to attack.

You are unbelievable. You make blanket statements about people you do not know and now you want to play the victim? Sorry, won't work on this forum, because you are not a victim, you are a protagonist. Instead of saying you know a couple of people, who have tried to game the system, you claim that many pozzies... oh never mind, you know what you said. It was hurtful, disrespectful and lacking in any empathy for anyone, who does not fit your narrow view of who deserves benefits. Fortunately, most people do not look down on you, as you do on others. Your lack of empathy and compassion is mind numbing and has no place here. We do not judge members, based on the nature of their disability, but rather on the caliber of their character.

[wow1969]

The hardest stigma to deal with was the one I carried inside myself.

Being a child of the 80's my views of HIV/AIDS was formed by that time. It was a powerful message that left a lasting impression for me. Over the years research and treatment has changed. Understanding of the virus has grown. But much of that information hasn't made it into the mainstream media. So the image created was never challenged and never really changed.

A few years ago when I came up positive I was carrying around that image inside me ... That has been and continues to be the most difficult source of stigma for me to deal with.

The truth is that it's just a virus, like many. It's a deadly virus, no doubt, but it's just a virus. Not a moral judgement or a measure of my self worth.  I still have to work on telling myself this on a regular basis because there are days when I slip back into the 80's view of HIV.

As far as external stigma ... I've had a few friends not be able to deal and go away and one betray my confidence ... But nothing major ... Is there a societal stigma attached to it? oh yeah, definitely ... whether it's mainstream society or gay society ... but the truth is it's gay society that has the most hang ups, not mainstream ... i haven't lost a single straight friend due to my status changing ... it's been gay friends ...

Heck, I've even had one of my straight female friends recently ask me, knowing i'm poz, to be the sperm donor for her child ... I reminded her of my status and she just said, you are great and have great genes, we can wash that stuff out LOL ...

I have easily been my own worst source of stigma ...

[Realist]

I am frequently amazed by the damaging friction of potentially constructive communities in all walks of life by those within those communities and particularly those who should know better.

When are we all going to learn that, as with our disease, we are individuals. We experience HIV differently and individually, we feel differently about HIV as individuals, we cope with HIV differently as individuals and we perceive the effect of HIV on us differently and individually (particularly in relation to the topic of the OP - stigma. Yes that's right this thread had an original topic).

However, there are things we can do collectively. We can share collectively, we can listen (or read) collectively, we can learn collectively, we can joke collectively (and yes, occasionally with sarcasm) and we can accept ourselves as individuals, collectively.

What is all this bullshit about - you don't agree with me? you're attacking me? You're dismissing me? Last time I checked, the vast majority of us are adults and as such should have a sufficient grasp on our behaviour and ability to respond to criticism and differences of view in an appropriate manner.

And frankly, if you've got someone on ignore, fucking ignore him, stop blindly going for the attack and apply the wisdom of your years. If you don't like someones views or lifestyle, fine, no one expects you to so get over it but instigating deliberately negatively divisive behaviour in a potentially powerful community of individual experiences and collective learning can never be constructive.

[Hellraiser]

What is all this bullshit about - you don't agree with me? you're attacking me? You're dismissing me? Last time I checked, the vast majority of us are adults and as such should have a sufficient grasp on our behaviour and ability to respond to criticism and differences of view in an appropriate manner.

TRUTH.

[Poz Brit]

in accordance to Anns request. no comment.

[Realist]

Happy to accept a PM if it's more appropriate.

[wtfimpoz]

There seems to be a small cartel who see them selves as custodians of the myth perpetrated by them selves, the truth as they see it and are comfortable with. based on longevity of the virus and forum. Sheep on the front line yet wolves in the pack. One moves, all move, one attacks, all attack? Yet blinded by their provincial, illiberal world. The consequence of this being many looking for support go else wear, as are to nervous to stick a head above the parapet.

Its really too bad there isn't a "like" option on here.  You're too right.

[jkinatl2]

Its really too bad there isn't a "like" option on here.  You're too right.

I am very disappointed in both posters' characterization. Look at the good things Matty has done, from being spot-on about meds and research, to rebutting the HIV denialists who sometimes sneak in here to undermine the site.

Look at Ann, who moderates the AM I INFECTED forum and has personally helped thousands of people overcome their fear of , or at least educate them in the mechanisms of HIV. And she does this from her heart, because she cares.

We have people on this site who administer knowledge, and hope, on a daily basis. When either of you begin doing that, then perhaps you are right in assessing those of us who have a more vested interest in this forum.

You, John, said this:

Support was here, and very good but the then flame wars and constant bickering spoilt it and I began to look around for something closer to home

and then this:

I know I don,t contribute here very often but I lurk, meeting others face to face I find so much more rewarding than just knowing some one in print, please don’t take me wrong here, the support from many on this site was over whelming and appreciated but its not the same as a face to face.

I am sorry that the volatile nature of the internet is not to your liking. This remains one of the most state of the art and well informed forums on the net. You yourself admit that this site has served you well in the past, with support and information. And though you might be loathe to admit it, some of the most well-informed people in this site also tend to get into the most scrapes - not because they hate people and do not want them to reach out here, but precisely because they CARE about this place as being a safe haven.

When someone makes an offensive statement, s/he should expect to be called on it. You should know this, having been a member for so long. And yet even in 2006 you seem to have been at odds with this site, stating:

There are some here that I have complete respect for, others I tolerate, and there have been a few that I have disliked intensely, but the current climate, with the nastiness, the proliferation of expletives and name calling I find exhausting and tedious, I can under stand the use of swear words in spoken conversation, as conversation is spontaneous, to actively write it, I find it in bad taste, so it has now left me as also being more on the lurking side than a posting participant

John, this describes the entire world. And as a writer, I can assure you that there are times when a swear word is not only appropriate, it is without synonym in context. People here might flail sometimes, might be inappropriate sometimes, but at least they - we - are trying. Trying to keep this place factually correct and still be kind to the un and under-informed.

Part of the stigma of HIV, to put this into proper threading perspective, is dealing with being on disability. Not being able to work, and living in a system that punishes efforts to do so with revocation of benefits, including the medications which make such efforts even remotely possible. There is a LOT of stigma associated with that, and to insinuate that some of us are milking said system is unfounded and hurtful.

It breeds shame, which addresses the stigma topic directly.

I am sorry you have found it necessary to lash out here, to the very people who have tried to help, to the people you acknowledge have been here for you.

As to wtf, I just shake my head. When you came back after your time out, people like myself were more than willing to accept a blank slate and engage you in polite and helpful conversation and support. I know, right? I'm an idiot.

Lessons learned.

[wtfimpoz]

What exactly are you shaking your head AT?  That I agreed with his claim that some members gang up on others?  That this makes people afraid to post and contribute?  What exactly was offensive about it?  Don't try---again---to warp what I'm saying into something it is not.  This was not an attack on Ann or Matty, so I'm not even sure how you've worked them into your response.  You've previously done this in the  thread about facial fillers.  This is the SECOND time you've pulled this.  If his quote was directed at Ann or Matt, I apologize to them, but I saw it as a well-needed general criticism of the social dynamic of this forum, and the fact that he employed the word "cartel" rather than "Ann and Matt" wouldn't give me or anyone else scanning a thread reason to think otherwise. 

Pozbrit forgot to elaborate on how people here selectively take offense at minor or non-issues as a way of silencing posters or discussions they personally dislike.  In your response to me, we see perfectly how a member calls out to others so that the rightly described "gang up" can take place.  If we recognized political-correctness as a form of martial arts, this forum could support itself as a virtual dojo.  Thanks for demonstrating a procedure.  Don't bother responding because I'm putting you on block.   

[jkinatl2]

Wow. Such vitriol. And I suspect that youa re, like most others, going to peek from time to time.

Not that it matters, except simply being sad, and part of that stigma.

*edited to make sense

[red_Dragon888]

Truly, "to forgive, Devine." but not today

[BT65]

Wtf, Jkinatl2 is one of the most knowledgable contributors here, and he rarely, rarely get his timbers shaken.  When he does, it's always justified.  How much do you contribute, or do you just throw around your bitchiness, and call it contributing?

[Assurbanipal]

If we recognized political-correctness as a form of martial arts, this forum could support itself as a virtual dojo. 

I don't actually agree that this line is true,

but I REALLY want to steal it....

[james3000]

"Part of the stigma of HIV, to put this into proper threading perspective, is dealing with being on disability. Not being able to work, and living in a system that punishes efforts to do so with revocation of benefits, including the medications which make such efforts even remotely possible. There is a LOT of stigma associated with that, and to insinuate that some of us are milking said system is unfounded and hurtful.

It breeds shame, which addresses the stigma topic directly."

This is everything I would hope to say THANK YOU

[red_Dragon888]

this thread is so "signifying nothing," I wonder is it worth commenting on.

[james3000]

And you wonder why people do not want to post??........................