HIV discrimination among gays!, let's not say the straight community.

[proud40]

I'm HIV+ since Dec 2005, am of, the best suprising Christmas gift I've ever been given, by myself of course!. Although I hadn't noticed until lately, that a very slight but concise and steady arising of HIV+ discrimination of gays among gays has been happening. It is very sad that people who are alike us, are coming up with this sort of margination and selectiveness. Most of the dating sites I visit in the web have lots of profiles of men demanding that the person contacting them, has to be HIV- or how they more commonly state it: "I'm D/D Free (Drug and disease free), you be too, please". Some others are more blatant and straightforward, stating "NO HIV+ PEOPLE, PLEASE", or things like, "IF YOU HAVE AN STD OR ARE HIV+, DON'T EVEN BOTHER CONTACTING ME" or "I ONLY REPLY TO HIV- PEOPLE".
I know that each and everyone of us has the right to choose what's best for us, or what we like or dislike. I almost have no words to counteract this, but it sure is very frustrating to see this kind of discrimination coming from members of our own gay community (if there really is a community ). I'm sure many of us here in these forums have been slashed by this sort of attitude from HIV- gays, like if they were a species apart that is not at all proclive to be POZ at any given moment. WE ARE ALL HUMANS, WE ARE ALL HIV+.

[Miss Philicia]

proud, this is not anything new.  How did you respond to such things before 2005?

[proud40]

I have never had any prejudices against HIV+ people, at any given time, be it before 2005 or after. Amof, I dated some HIV+ guys before I was HIV+. I think that being conscious and responsible at the time of having your sexual encounter, has a lot to do with staying safe, and I did; until my time came when I got myself into a downward spiral of depression, drug using, promiscuity and unsafe sex due to emotional reasons, and all of a sudden, 25 years of being careful, staying safe and HIV neg, were flushed down the toilet in one single night. So, no I've never been discriminative of HIV+ people, even before I knew I was. The stupidity I am referring to, is that there are lots of gay guys that think that by discriminating HIV+ people all alone and not having contact at all with them, they are going to be 100% safe in their active sexual life. There's no doubt that FEAR and IGNORANCE, among other aspects of human behavior, play a big role in having idiotic attitudes. Ask me .

[Miss Philicia]

I didn't accuse you of personally being anti-HIV previous to your diagnosis.  I asked how you responded to others that you saw doing what you described in your opening post, in light of my statement that what you described is nothing new.  People have been saying that they're "D/D free" in on-line profiles since I've been connected to the internet over a decade ago, and previous to that you could find it in any "sex ads" in free rag/magazines of any large city.

And while some guys think that their request for "D/D free" makes them safe, and lulls them into a false sense of security, I think the majority are simply limiting their risks.  I have way of knowing if they're bare-backing or using condoms after locating these "D/D free" boys, and neither do you.

Frankly, I don't think there's anything you can do about your distaste for this phrase in an on-line personal except move onto the next ad.  Try not to let it bother you.  There are openly HIV+ people out in the world for you to meet if you so choose to do so.

[Matty the Damned]

I don't get what all the flap is about. Sexual preference is all about discriminating. Liking one thing, but not another. If somebody doesn't fancy fucking a pozzie that's their lookout and they're welcome to it. I don't see anyone accusing the Philodendron of being a sexist pig because he won't lie with da ladeez.

Just because it hurts your feelings doesn't make it a human rights issue.

MtD

[proud40]

Ok.
No more discussion on the post. According to you two, there's no discrimination of HIV+ people, period. I won't touch the point anymore. As a matter of fact, can any of you two so free spirited guys, tell me how do I delete this subject?.
Just one question, matty. If you don't mind me asking, why do you call yourself, "the damned"?.

[Matty the Damned]

I'm HIV+ since Dec 2005, am of, the best suprising Christmas gift I've ever been given, by myself of course!. Although I hadn't noticed until lately, that a very slight but concise and steady arising of HIV+ discrimination of gays among gays has been happening. It is very sad that people who are alike us, are coming up with this sort of margination and selectiveness. Most of the dating sites I visit in the web have lots of profiles of men demanding that the person contacting them, has to be HIV- or how they more commonly state it: "I'm D/D Free (Drug and disease free), you be too, please". Some others are more blatant and straightforward, stating "NO HIV+ PEOPLE, PLEASE", or things like, "IF YOU HAVE AN STD OR ARE HIV+, DON'T EVEN BOTHER CONTACTING ME" or "I ONLY REPLY TO HIV- PEOPLE".
I know that each and everyone of us has the right to choose what's best for us, or what we like or dislike. I almost have no words to counteract this, but it sure is very frustrating to see this kind of discrimination coming from members of our own gay community (if there really is a community Huh). I'm sure many of us here in these forums have been slashed by this sort of attitude from HIV- gays, like if they were a species apart that is not at all proclive to be POZ at any given moment. WE ARE ALL HUMANS, WE ARE ALL HIV+.

I have never had any prejudices against HIV+ people, at any given time, be it before 2005 or after. Amof, I dated some HIV+ guys before I was HIV+. I think that being conscious and responsible at the time of having your sexual encounter, has a lot to do with staying safe, and I did; until my time came when I got myself into a downward spiral of depression, drug using, promiscuity and unsafe sex due to emotional reasons, and all of a sudden, 25 years of being careful, staying safe and HIV neg, were flushed down the toilet in one single night. So, no I've never been discriminative of HIV+ people, even before I knew I was. The stupidity I am referring to, is that there are lots of gay guys that think that by discriminating HIV+ people all alone and not having contact at all with them, they are going to be 100% safe in their active sexual life. There's no doubt that FEAR and IGNORANCE, among other aspects of human behavior, play a big role in having idiotic attitudes. Ask me

Ok.
No more discussion on the post. According to you two, there's no discrimination of HIV+ people, period. I won't touch the point anymore. As a matter of fact, can any of you two so free spirited guys, tell me how do I delete this subject?.
Just one question, matty. If you don't mind me asking, why do you call yourself, "the damned"?.

Oh take a pill already. The Philodendron and I said nothing of the sort. 

If you'd bothered to read my comments instead of verballing me you'd have noticed that I accept that there is discrimination. People prefer one thing to another. When it comes to sex that's their sovereign right. Some people don't fancy fucking a poz-bod. Some people don't like hairy backs. Personally I'm not that fond of guys who shave their cocks, but what can ya do?

This might be news to you, but we all discriminate. It's fine on a dating site, just not in the workplace.

I don't know why you're suddenly having a tantrum. You posted something, we responded. That's how internet forums work. It's a back and forth thing.

Much like fucking.

MtD

/edited because I wrote 'find' when I meant 'fond'/

[Miss Philicia]

According to you two, there's no discrimination of HIV+ people, period.

Would you mind showing me where I said this?  The is the second time (all in 3 posts) that you've accused me of saying something that I did not.

[lydgate]

A good (not great) thread idea, eve if it's been repeated before. That's what we do: recycle the eternal concerns, step tentatively, answer the ones we feel qualified to, or perhaps get a word in at every point.

To Proud40: Be patient, the forums will likely bear fruit; a process of adaptation will  probably occur.

MtD and Philly: was the tonality (listen, listen!) by either of you really necessary.? -- in response to THIS?

Jay

[sharkdiver]

Proud

I am not sure why this would be considered a long term survivor thread. Are coming in and asking me and my fellow LTS's a question or an opinion? If not, then it would probably be more appropriate if you posted it in Living With.

Mr. Shark

[Matty the Damned]

MtD and Philly: was the tonality (listen, listen!) by either of you really necessary.? -- in response to THIS?


Good to see you got over your privacy concerns Jay. For a while there we were worried you'd never come back.

MtD

/edited for a redundant colon/

[Andy Velez]

Dear All,

This is one of those subjects which comes up from time to time and pretty much always ends up in flaming. So before it moves any further in that direction, consider and take a chill pill before commenting further. Clearly some lines have been drawn. Please let's not have this escalate. Thanks for your cooperation.

[allopathicholistic]

proud40, speaking only for myself: when i was hiv negative i usedto think "oh, hmm, i don't think i'd be too keen on poz" so while my tone differed from the adamant adams, my sentiments were somewhat similar. silly me, back then i felt the poz world was a far-off otherworldly realm - i should have educated myself because i lived/live in a big city where there's a high rate of hiv even though many men here assume they're neg and don't get tested, or they do get tested yet they aren't always safe, etc. try not to let internet stuff affect you too much is my advice.

[GSOgymrat]

Proud40 I look at someone posting "IF YOU HAVE AN STD OR ARE HIV+, DON'T EVEN BOTHER CONTACTING ME" as an early warning that someone is a jerk. It is the equivalent of someone putting "No fat chicks" in their profile. When someone lists all the things they DON'T want in a profile it is a bad sign.

That said everyone has their deal breakers. I wouldn't go out with someone who likes to PNP. I wouldn't go out with someone 21 years old. There are some people on AIDSmeds who don't want to go out with HIV- people. As Matty was pointing out everyone has their preferences and that is not a bad thing. Still rejection doesn't feel good no matter if you are perceived as being too old, too bald, too fat, not the right race... or HIV+.

[MarcoPoz]

Hmmmm..here's an interesting dilemma then...

Is the original post-er saying that no one should sero-sort?  Or is it only negs that are guilty of discrimination if they sort out pozzes?  Does this mean that if I choose to only have a relationship with another poz person then I'm a bigot?

Maybe there are bigger questions here about informed consent, being honest about what you're ready to deal with (and not), disclosure of HIV status prior to anything sexual and the growing stigma of living with HIV.

Forgive me for the following--this is what happens when you get a degree in Philosophy ;-)

Here's a thought and an opinion.  I don't think that just because we have HIV that we immediately get to take the moral high ground on anything.  I think that victimhood is a double edged sword that very often slices the one who wields it.  In this case, we're talking about choice and stigma.  How many of us pine for that one moment back--that moment when we were infected and WISH that someone had told us they had HIV?  What would we have chosen to with that knowledge?

For me its simple...ask...tell.  Why should it be different for those who haven't tested positive for HIV? Is it that we can't even take the slightest rejection?  Maybe we use our HIV status then as a defense..."Oh, you won't want me cuz I have THE cootie" etc etc.  Maybe just the idea that someone wouldn't want us sexually is so offending? 

Well, I'm not so vain as to think that every person I pass wants to bump uglies with me.  I'm not sure HIV changed that in one bit.  Maybe I'm too simple, but I don't think I'd want to define myself by who would or wouldn't fuck me???

hmmm....deep stuff.

-marco

[dusty99]

I know for me, prior to my becoming Poz, it did concern me and I was unwilling to have sex with someone who stated they were, even though how would i know for sure if anyone wasn't if they said so. Like Matty said, it is our right, just as we will not because someone isn't our type, Poz or non is just that, a type. I can respect someone who states that choice, it is theirs to make. It may not seem fair, but in reality I think it is. It is isn't discrimination as we usually define it, but it is as in discriminating taste, there is a difference. Understand your feeling on this, but I think it isn't something that should bother you since it isn't something you can change. It will be a factor in life no matter who it is, gay, straight, bi, moonman, etc.

Now that I am Poz, I am discriminatory the other direction, mainly for fear of passing this on to someone else. Is this ignorant thinking? Probably, but I would never want to pass this on to anyone. And it does scare me to think that it is possible. I know that is true of anything, and this is not a death sentence, but it is a life altering issue all the same. I have found Poz friendly people, but I am still uneasy with it, this is just me, but I am entitled to feel the way I do, and I think that others are entitled to feel the way they do, including you.

Does this make you wrong? not necessarily, however; I think that it is something you won't be able to change. I understand, as I said, your feelings on this, and I certainly understand how it can be looked at as discrimination, but in reality it isn't, other than being a choice of what is preferred. It has been stated that it is a sense of false security (something along that line) and this may be true, but I think that anyone who wants to stay away from being HIV should take all the precautions they feel are right for them.

This being said, this is just my 2 cents.

[dusty99]

For me its simple...ask...tell.  Why should it be different for those who haven't tested positive for HIV? Is it that we can't even take the slightest rejection?  Maybe we use our HIV status then as a defense..."Oh, you won't want me cuz I have THE cootie" etc etc.  Maybe just the idea that someone wouldn't want us sexually is so offending? 



-marco

I deal with this all the time, it is an issue for me, thinking that someone won't want to just because I have the "cootie". If that is how they feel then that is understandable, I would have probably felt the same way as you stated prior, simply to avoid the possibility. I even deal with self-esteem on sexual matters, because I don't see myself as particularly hot even though I get people telling me I am. I just don't know how to deal with compliments very well. Oddly enough (in my mind) I have found people wanting to connect despite my status, they aren't phased by it, and this does baffle me, but then I still deal with my own stigma of my status, and that is my issue alone.

[Bucko]

I didn't accuse you of personally being anti-HIV previous to your diagnosis.  I asked how you responded to others that you saw doing what you described in your opening post, in light of my statement that what you described is nothing new.  People have been saying that they're "D/D free" in on-line profiles since I've been connected to the internet over a decade ago, and previous to that you could find it in any "sex ads" in free rag/magazines of any large city.

This is completely true, and has been since the mid-80s.

And while some guys think that their request for "D/D free" makes them safe, and lulls them into a false sense of security, I think the majority are simply limiting their risks.  I have way of knowing if they're bare-backing or using condoms after locating these "D/D free" boys, and neither do you.

Frankly, I don't think there's anything you can do about your distaste for this phrase in an on-line personal except move onto the next ad.  Try not to let it bother you.  There are openly HIV+ people out in the world for you to meet if you so choose to do so.

I'll reiterate a point that's been made before in this thread, but in a more personalized way: I am a serosorter. That means that I don't fuck negs ever, period. With oral scenes I'm more flexible, but less enthusiastic.

As I work in a bar, I get hit on a lot. I'm flattered but uninterested in 98% of these guys for an entire spectrum of reasons. But the main reason is because they are neg. My "pozdar" says so, and I confirm it in verbal discussions.

For me, fucking a neg is a taboo similar to incest. It's totally off-limit. But, being the kind of glass-half-full guy I am, I know that I still have the pick of the litter any time I want it. That's not an hollow brag: Ft Lauderdale is pozbottom central and decent poztops are hard to come by.

As to the tone of this thread:
The OP comes in, caps flaring, with what is, essentially a non-issue for many (if not most) of us. This is not a discussion of discrimination in the workplace or in housing or medical care. It's about whom we choose as our sex partners, which is the one area where we all have preferences that become deal-breakers. My list of criteria is pretty well-known around here.

Brent
(Who knows what he needs in a partner)

[komnaes]

For me, fucking a neg is a taboo similar to incest.

Then you are positively discriminating neggies Bucko! They have rights too you know... like the right to a Bucko-Shag!

[Cliff]

It's not surprising that HIV discrimination/stigma is rife in the gay community, as it is in others.  People reject potential partners for a whole host of reasons; looks, age, race, income/class.  So HIV was bound to become the next segregator.  Saying D/D free is cruel. Yes, we have a right to choose our partners but it's ok to point out that it doesn't have to be done in a hurtful manner (which just reinforces the stigma and forces HIV underground, making the problem worse).  Also there is potential missed social/dating opportunities to meet new people when we are too closed-minded.

[Miss Philicia]

Wait -- so with the term "D/D free" is only one of those "D"'s discriminatory and not the other?  Is it OK to state in an on-line personal that you don't wish to date a coke head?

[Iggy]

I think we all agree that there is HIV prejudices in the gay community - just as there is misogyny, racism, ageism and what ever prejudice you can name.  Being gay has nothing to do with open mindedness.  To equate otherwise is just as guilty of stereotyping all gay people as hair dressers.

Yes, I've had my share of guys who felt that HIV was a reason to write me off when it came to sex, and in one case it affected a friendship, but those experiences (while they may sting at the time) mean far less to me then discrimination that I have faced in the straight community. 

Why? 

Because the experiences I have had with discrimination in the straight community (though it really should be labeled the community at large then the straight community) reside more along the lines of job discrimination.  Being denied the ability to support myself financially because of HIV has far greater reverberations in my life then not being able to cum on someone's face.

[David_CA]

I wonder if part of the 'no pozzies need apply' statements in people's profiles are sometimes for appearances.  It's like the 'no fat chicks' that GSO mentioned.  It's ok to like fat chicks, but it's not cool for it to be known that one's a chubby chaser.  You know, the old guilty by association thing.  What's really stupid about people that want nothing to do with us like this is how the hell do they think they'll know if we're HIV+?  I'm sure folks get so hard up for a lay that they'll lie about they're HIV status... especially knowing that the potential hook-up partner doesn't want us to be HIV+!

Sure, it's rude to make statements like the ones mentioned by the OP.  More than that, it doesn't serve to promote the honesty and learning that might come from actually talking about safe(r) sex with those who've learned the hard way - those of us who are HIV+.  Personally, I've had sex with HIV+ guys while I was HIV-, but I used condoms when I knew that they were HIV+ (and often when I didn't know).  Stating 'no pozzies' is a piss poor safe(r) sex practice that often backfires, that's for sure.  Besides, pozzies are (often) more fun! 

David
(edited due to those damned typos)

[GSOgymrat]

Then there is the "straight acting" "masculine only" "please don't be effeminate" qualification. For some reason that irks me more than the HIV stuff. HIV serosorting as least makes some kind of sense. If someone doesn't want to date a queen that's their choice but don't insult people, YOUR OWN PEOPLE, by putting that in a profile. To me it is inherently homophobic- behave like a homosexual in the bedroom but act like a heterosexual in public. Unfortunately my partner can't stand "gay" acting men and is has been a point of contention since the day we met.

Obviously I have issues.

[thunter34]

Then there is the "straight acting" "masculine only" "please don't be effeminate" qualification. For some reason that irks me more than the HIV stuff. HIV serosorting as least makes some kind of sense. If someone doesn't want to date a queen that's their choice but don't insult people, YOUR OWN PEOPLE, by putting that in a profile. To me it is inherently homophobic- behave like a homosexual in the bedroom but act like a heterosexual in public. Unfortunately my partner can't stand "gay" acting men and is has been a point of contention since the day we met.

Obviously I have issues.

Ah, yes...the "Str8 acting" and seeking "masculine only" - almost always on a profile that is a cock crazed flood of disco balls and fornication over some exploding rainbow backdrop where the only gay things missing are a Rockettes kick line and Rip Taylor wielding a bag of confetti.  Str8 acting, huh?  Sorry, Blanche...but the glitter and Thunderpuss remixes beg to differ.

It gripes me, too.  Talk to me more about Str8 acting once you get the penis out of your mouth, dear.   

[Iggy]

Then there is the "straight acting" "masculine only" "please don't be effeminate" qualification.

I can feel confident in saying that anyone who has met or talked to me (meaning heard my deep voice and NYPD accent) would laugh that I Have gotten the blacklisted over knowing the difference between the movie and Broadway Version of "America" from West Side Story as equating me as too feminine for their tastes.

I guess there is nothing like a big hairy man in a deep voice who knows that BABY was one of the most incredible musicals never recognized in our time!

To big untalented, non rhythm and can't dance or sing for their lives butch queens everywhere.

*SIGH*

[fearless]

The one that really gets my blood boiling is "Sorry, no Asians - just don't do it for me". It's a pretty common one in Aus.

While I have no problem with people discriminating for sex, we all do it, but why the need to wear your prejudices on your sleave? A simple "No thanks" response to a pm from someone that doesn't interest you would be sufficient.

I don't have a type (well, some would say my type is everyone). I'm flattered by all advances.

[GSOgymrat]

While I have no problem with people discriminating for sex, we all do it, but why the need to wear your prejudices on your sleave? A simple "No thanks" response to a pm from someone that doesn't interest you would be sufficient.

I agree. We all have our preferences but you don't have to put potentially insulting things on a profile.

[David_CA]

The one that really gets my blood boiling is "Sorry, no Asians - just don't do it for me". It's a pretty common one in Aus.

While I have no problem with people discriminating for sex, we all do it, but why the need to wear your prejudices on your sleave? A simple "No thanks" response to a pm from someone that doesn't interest you would be sufficient.

I don't have a type (well, some would say my type is everyone). I'm flattered by all advances.

The expression 'bitchy queen' doesn't exist for no reason, and that's what a lot of the guys posting their 'preferences' are.  I think that they are doing the rest of us a favor, in a way.  Like Stevie, I like most types.  I do discriminate against bitchy queens, however.  It's nice to know what sort of guy one's dealing with up front.  How about saying what type of guys one likes instead of the ones that one isn't interested in?

[woodshere]

How about saying what type of guys one likes instead of the ones that one isn't interested in?

Unfortunately for me it doesn't have enough room for all my types. 

But I know what you mean, if a guy goes on and on about what he is and is not looking for without revealing much about himself I have no interest whatsoever!!!

[Miss Philicia]

Only bitchy queens bitch about queens :wink:

[GSOgymrat]

One of the secrets to a good personal ad or profile is not giving too much information. If you give people enough to spark their interest, such as a hot photo, they will unconsciously fill in the blanks with what they want to be there.

Ford
(who didn't major in psychology for the money)

[David_CA]

Only bitchy queens bitch about queens :wink:

Hmmm... only bitchy queens bitching about (supposedly) bitchy queens wink!   

[sharkdiver]

Oh I am so glad this thread was moved out of LTS 

[Buckmark]

But I know what you mean, if a guy goes on and on about what he is and is not looking for without revealing much about himself I have no interest whatsoever!!!

I have to agree with your on this one, Woodsy.  I find guys who have personal ads reading like a grocery list of likes and dislikes to be of no interest to me, especially when a guy says nothing about himself.  What really chaps my hide is when a guys replies to my ad (rare as that might be), and simply asks "so, tell me about yourself", therefore revealing he hasn't read one word of my ad.

( There -- now I'm officially a bitchy queen, too.    )

Regards,

Henry

[NLEWLAD]

I totally agree that HIV Discrimination among gays is a problem,  the amount of abuse i have seen against hiv positive gay men from hiv negative gay men is just unimaginable,  i personally have had quite a lot of abuse from hiv neg lads.

I have also tried to make certian websites outlaw hiv-aphobic abuse but to this day the abuse on mainstream gay social networking sites in the uk still continues.

[AlanBama]

I certainly understand sero-sorting.   What I DON'T understand is how anyone can be so stupid as to think "D & D free only" or "must be clean" in an ad or profile is offering them any protection.

Since I moved back to AL in 2001, I personally know of two men who would
"b/b with neg only".  I  have since seen them both at my clinic.    It's 2008!  People need to get a clue.....

 

[Miss Philicia]

Keep in mind that there's a bit of discrimination even within the HIV+ community.  The non-OI'ers often seem not to be sexually attracted to the Lipo Kids, etc.

It is what it is...

[Iggy]

I certainly understand sero-sorting.   What I DON'T understand is how anyone can be so stupid as to think "D & D free only" or "must be clean" in an ad or profile is offering them any protection.

I think D&D free is akin to someone writing their athletic, or a jock or straight acting in an ad - more about a fantasy image then reality.

Keep in mind that there's a bit of discrimination even within the HIV+ community.  The non-OI'ers often seem not to be sexually attracted to the Lipo Kids, etc.

It is what it is...

Very true.  It was something I embarrassingly admit that I did when I first became poz. 

[lydgate]

On a somewhat lighter note. A while back, I was visiting some friends in New York; went out one evening with a whole bunch of garrulous homos. While sipping our over-priced drinks, the subject of "types" came up. One guy, clean-shaven, said that he would never sleep with someone who had facial hair. This led to an awkward pause in the conversation since I had a week-long scruffy stubble, and I was the visitor from out of town, the "guest" in the group.  Then, one strapping young blond-blue-eyed lad declared proudly that he was a confirmed Rice Queen. (Note: I am not endorsing or approving these labels; merely reporting the chat.) Present, also, was one self-declared Curry Queen (trying hard, but without success, to seduce me). Finally, one guy lamented that there was no label to cover his taste in men -- he was mostly attracted to Middle Eastern men, and Arab Queen didn't quite sound right. Everyone paused thoughtfully, tipsily. Mr. Rice Queen piped up: why not call yourself, he said, a Hummus Queen? This suggestion was received with general approval. 

Jay

[GSOgymrat]

Keep in mind that there's a bit of discrimination even within the HIV+ community.  The non-OI'ers often seem not to be sexually attracted to the Lipo Kids, etc.

It is what it is...

Yeah, cheers, thanks a lot.

[Winiroo]

I've seen the same things written in straight dating profiles. The good thing about having posters that say exactly what they want is that you wont waste your time with them.
I suppose it might hurt my feelings eventually if those where the only posts I seemed to be seeing. I might take it as an indicator that I was searching for a partner in the wrong place. But thats just me.

Prior to being infected I likely wouldn't have knowingly dated a pos man because it would have scared the hell out of me.
Mind you I was infected in 1992. I was 19 or 20 years old and was mostly ignorant about HIV. Schools didn't teach about it and my parents certainly didn't know anything.

Now that I am positive I decided not to date negative men.
Not that I am dating anymore, aside from Billy. LOL

I got my honey and I'm quite happy with him... 

[allopathicholistic]

I certainly understand sero-sorting.   What I DON'T understand is how anyone can be so stupid as to think "D & D free only" or "must be clean" in an ad or profile is offering them any protection.

I think many of those guys know writing those things makes no difference. They're just taking the concept of trust and eroticizing it to an extreme level.

[bj_tempe]

Interesting topic...and one that I've wondered about ever since I became poz myself.  I never really noticed all the "D/D free, UB2"s before.  Hell, I even used to say it myself!     It is everybody's right to "serosort", obviously, but it doesn't seem to be having much of an effect on the rising rates of infection.  Hmmm...

I think in some cases, it makes sense for neg guys to request HIV- only.  It depends on what kinds of things you want to do when you have sex.  If a neg guy is a bottom and only practices safe sex, then he is reducing his risk of infection by excluding HIV+ men, since condoms can fail.  (Personally, I wouldn't top a neg guy for this reason...)  If the neg guy is a top, though, his risk of infection is minuscule with a poz bottom (provided he's using protection.)

Problem is, there's no way of knowing for sure what your partner's status is if they say they're negative, is there?  You could even go so far as to test your potential tricks on the spot -- but there's always the chance that somebody could have been infected yesterday, meaning they'd test negative but could still infect you.  Also:  a guy who thinks he's negative (but isn't) is probably going to have a viral load that's much higher than a poz guy who's on meds -- and will therefore pose a greater risk of infection.

The other thing is, we are more likely to take risks with a guy who we think is negative.  I bet that most of us are here because of a moment of bad judgment, and not because the condom broke.  I'm also willing to bet that most of us were having sex with a guy we thought was negative...right?  Had we known they were poz, things would have gone differently for most of us...right?

I guess what I'm trying to say is that arbitrarily excluding us poz guys from their dating pool won't keep neg guys from getting infected (since, ostensibly, that is why they're doing it.)  There's tons of "magnetic" couples out there who can attest to the fact that safe sex works.  Maybe a better plan for prevention is to assume that everybody is poz and always use condoms.

I'm just saying.     

[bearby]

I'm HIV+ since Dec 2005, am of, the best suprising Christmas gift I've ever been given, by myself of course!.
 What is it with Christmas and getting a  diagnosis of being poz ?
 I asked that because I too was diagnosed as being poz on 12/24/1197 talk about one hell of a present to get that year  !
 I  went into denial for the next two years and after deciding that it was time to get the prior diagnosis verified there it was again which led me to  one of if not the best Id in the area and I love her and the nurse practitioner  ( as well as my dad bear does  ( soul mate mentioned many times before within these forums )).
 We went for my usual  quarterly  check up  last month ( June of 2008 ) he waited ever so patiently as  the lab work got done by Vampira as I call her ( the pholobmist ) who led me to the exam room whereas I made a stop  at the waiting room to get dad bear to go into the exam room with me .
 Well  she( the nurse practitioner ) made me go thru the usual paces and then we sat down for our usual kvetch session .
As the aforementioned session  began to come to a close he spoke up and voiced his concerns about things I was doing or had done and guess what I get to do now ( altho I know he wanted me to make it happen any way I just needed the extra push from her to make it happen ).
 I now have a goal of by Sept 2008 of stopping smoking  this is a habit I have tried and succeeded in stopping one time since I was 11 years old ).
 But  the worse part if that she wouldn't give me script for chantrix because of it's known side effects .
 Knowing them already I had to concour with her decision  but what she did give me was welbutrin instead .
 Not that  even knew of the med or ever heard it mentioned by any one I just trusted her decision.
 I got the script filled and was reading the warning on the side of the bottle when what should I see but that little orange tag that says ' do not take with or use alcohol while taking this medication ".
 Talk about  a kill joy that has to be it I have to stop smoking and   even having the occasional beer  at the same time I'm going to go out of my friggin mind what a double  dose of trouble I am getting into but the ever lasting effects I know will over come the short term faults  .

[kbhmsw]

Guys, what NO ONE is talking about is how the "D/D Free" and the "HIV-, UB2" phenomenon is a result of PISS POOR HIV education by the current CDC and "no talking about sex, especially gay sex" mandate by the Bush administration!

Young gay men today kinda-sorta know about safer sex and kinda-sorta know a little about sero-sorting, but they aren't TAUGHT any of it and they are all getting it all wrong in droves.  The phrase I hate is "Safe Only - Neg Only".  DUH!  If you're "safe only", your partners do not "need" to be Neg -- that's the whole point of safer sex, and it has been since the 80s, is that you can be neg and have sex with someone poz and still prevent HIV transmission something like 99.99% accurately just by using a condom, especially as a bottom.  But the CDC is so "anti-condom" under Bush's moralistic (as opposed to public-health-oriented) CDC that the messages of HOW to have safer sex get lost.

I agree; the "UB2" phenomenon is NOT about merely preventing the transmission of HIV; it's implying a social status and value, trying to say that "neg" is the "Good Gay" and "poz" is the "Bad Gay".  It's not about public health and preventing transmission; it's about elitism and a "I'm better than you just cuz" philosophy.

What we need to counteract this is comprehensive sex education that includes the DETAILS on how to prevent HIV, such as print ads that say, "Hey buddy, have that dude put a condom on his hard cock before he plows your ass so that you don't get HIV, huh?" but that won't happen as long as we have these lame-ass HIV prevention ads that say stupid slogans like "Stay Negative" or "HIV: Not Fabulous", produced by (moron) Les Pappas and his (moronic) social networking organization, Better World Advertising, that keeps getting CDC funding for HIV prevention ads that don't do anything for prevention but do plenty to promote stigma and discrimination. 

When I tell all this to people who post on Manhunt, etc. who have these "UB2" lines, I am pleasantly surprised at the number of guys who APPRECIATE my educating them on the specifics of safer sex and the highly risky but occasionally effective "safer barebacking" techniques discussed on www.Bareback.com or in Michael Shernoff's comprehensive, academic, and intelligent book, "Without Condoms". 

All of this goes back to the lack of safer sex education from Bush.  Helms is saving a place in Hell in just for him. 

[Peter Staley]

Welcome to our forums, Ken!  I hope you'll become a regular here, since I know you've thought and written a great deal about these issues (based on your profile).

Peter Staley
Founder
AIDSmeds.com

[redhotmuslbear]

All of this goes back to the lack of safer sex education from Bush.
Helms is saving a place in Hell in just for him. 

It irks me to read of Queers and HIVers who wish to cede the community responsibility for sex education to the federal government where it will be manipulated for political gain by whoever holds power at a given time.  Before we had an HIV/AIDS bureaucracy of any kind in Washington, D.C., the 50 state capitals, and major cities, messages about personal sexual safety and the values around protection were passed person to person in bars, bedrooms, bath houses, and backrooms without censorship by government funders or the influence of the "eroticized load" from porn and the internet.  I can remember 20 years ago the collective sense of recoil that would be encountered in a group if someone described a condomless encounter...... how did we lose the group norms about healthful sexuality?

As for the notion of "discrimination," I find that an overused and misapplied term, similar to when some guy of Asiain or African descent calls me a "racist" for not responding to advances. None of us has a right to a relationship of any kind with anyone of our choosing.

Best,
David

[Dachshund]

It irks me to read of Queers and HIVers who wish to cede the community responsibility for sex education to the federal government where it will be manipulated for political gain by whoever holds power at a given time.  Before we had an HIV/AIDS bureaucracy of any kind in Washington, D.C., the 50 state capitals, and major cities, messages about personal sexual safety and the values around protection were passed person to person in bars, bedrooms, bath houses, and backrooms without censorship by government funders or the influence of the "eroticized load" from porn and the internet.  I can remember 20 years ago the collective sense of recoil that would be encountered in a group if someone described a condomless encounter...... how did we lose the group norms about healthful sexuality?

As for the notion of "discrimination," I find that an overused and misapplied term, similar to when some guy of Asiain or African descent calls me a "racist" for not responding to advances. None of us has a right to a relationship of any kind with anyone of our choosing.

Best,
David

The only thing being passed around twenty years ago in bars, bedrooms, bath houses and backrooms was HIV and it continues unabated today.

You and your friends may have recoiled publicly over condom use, but I guarantee privately not all of the righteous played safe. You and your friends wouldn't be here if you had.

I'm sorry but in my opinion your whole post is a load of hooey. Group norms of healthful sexuality, huh?

[bj_tempe]

I can remember 20 years ago the collective sense of recoil that would be encountered in a group if someone described a condomless encounter...... how did we lose the group norms about healthful sexuality?

I think a lot of it has to do with the death rate plummeting in the mid-to-late 90s (when more antiviral drugs like the protease inhibitors became available and HAART "cocktails" were used with success.)  I "came out" in 1994, and so far nobody I know has died from HIV infection.  Death is a powerful motivator to change behavior, as I'm sure any of you who were on the scene in the 80s can agree with.  Let's face it:  prior to 1981, NOBODY used condoms (unless it was as a fetish...  )

Like many issues, this one is multifaceted...but the removal of the fear of death, coupled by lack of funding for "Real World" sex education and STD prevention, are two major reasons why the infection rates are up.