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Main Forums => Living With HIV => Topic started by: Phoenius10 on April 21, 2010, 04:08:17 pm

Title: HIV in Saliva Transmission Risk
Post by: Phoenius10 on April 21, 2010, 04:08:17 pm
HIV has been found in saliva.  There is no denying that.  Due to the proteins and enzymes in saliva, it has been found that the virus gets weakened while in the mouth making it harder and very unlikely to be transmitted this way.  However, it is not impossible.

The moderators of these forums are actively telling others in the "Am I Infected" area, that it is IMPOSSIBLE that hiv can be transmitted through saliva and that there have been no documented cases of it.  In my opinion this is inaccurate.  They even restrict others from posting in that area because they obviously know what they are saying is contraversal and putting others lives at risk.

There has been NO STUDY proving that it is IMPOSSIBLE to spread HIV through saliva. Why?  Because we don't know how much blood might be in anyone's saliva at any given time.  So to be going and telling others that you can use saliva as lube all you want and you'll NEVER get infected because in their opinion saliva cannot transmit the virus is clearly wrong and very dangerous.

As for as documented cases, just Google "hiv transmission toothbrush" and read about the documented case of someone getting HIV by sharing a toothbrush.  If that isn't being transmitted by saliva, I don't know what is.

If these moderators think they are right, then show me the studies showing it is impossible.  There are none!!  Even the CDC warns that open-mouth kissing could transmit the virus and recommends against it due to possible blood content.

These moderators should be AT LEAST warn others that there could be a risk of transmission through saliva, although very very low, not that it's IMPOSSIBLE!!

Not even in the content on poz.com do I see anywhere that it says it is impossible for hiv to be transmitted through saliva.

I found it SHOCKING that this forum has such misinformed moderators ESPECIALLY when it comes to the risks involved in transmitting hiv.

Is their definition of "impossible" low risk??!

Lets discuss, debate and put this behind us.  But in their arrogance they will probably just delete this.
Title: Re: HIV in Saliva Transmission Risk
Post by: Bucko on April 21, 2010, 04:17:40 pm
Saliva is not infectious: period.

Now, where's that popcorn emoticon?  :-\
Title: Re: HIV in Saliva Transmission Risk
Post by: skeebo1969 on April 21, 2010, 04:20:12 pm
(http://files.sharenator.com/funny_pictures_polarbear_face_palm_OMG_pics-s500x353-21542-580.jpg)

Welcome to the forums!!
Title: Re: HIV in Saliva Transmission Risk
Post by: Hellraiser on April 21, 2010, 04:22:32 pm
The moderators are simply operating within the scientific boundaries that no HIV transmission has ever happened orally or through saliva.  You are presenting a dangerous idea for all of us that by simply kissing someone who is negative we could pass along the virus.  Not only do I not like the sound of this, but until proven very clearly in a scientific setting I refuse to give this idea any amount of credibility.

Realize that the moderators won't delete your post unless it violates...

"# We ask all forums members to provide references for health/medical/scientific information they provide, when it is not a personal experience being discussed. Please provide hyperlinks with full URLs or full citations of published works not available via the Internet. Additionally, all forums members must post information which are true and correct to their knowledge."
Title: Re: HIV in Saliva Transmission Risk
Post by: Matty the Damned on April 21, 2010, 04:33:43 pm
Firstly, I am not a moderator. Nor is Jkinatl2. We have permission from the moderators to answer questions in Am I Infected? forum. Andy Velez is a moderator.

If these moderators think they are right, then show me the studies showing it is impossible.  There are none!!

It not up to us to disprove the assertion, rather the onus is on you to substantiate your claim, something you are yet to do.

HIV has been isolated from saliva, but this does not mean that virus present in saliva is active and capable of mounting an infection.

MtD
Title: Re: HIV in Saliva Transmission Risk
Post by: Phoenius10 on April 21, 2010, 05:03:13 pm
The moderators are simply operating within the scientific boundaries that no HIV transmission has ever happened orally or through saliva.  You are presenting a dangerous idea for all of us that by simply kissing someone who is negative we could pass along the virus.  Not only do I not like the sound of this, but until proven very clearly in a scientific setting I refuse to give this idea any amount of credibility.

I don't like the sound of it either.  But if the virus is there, and blood itself can be present, I don't find it "impossible".
Title: Re: HIV in Saliva Transmission Risk
Post by: Phoenius10 on April 21, 2010, 05:09:48 pm
Firstly, I am not a moderator. Nor is Jkinatl2. We have permission from the moderators to answer questions in Am I Infected? forum. Andy Velez is a moderator.

If these moderators think they are right, then show me the studies showing it is impossible.  There are none!!

It not up to us to disprove the assertion, rather the onus is on you to substantiate your claim, something you are yet to do.

HIV has been isolated from saliva, but this does not mean that virus present in saliva is active and capable of mounting an infection.

MtD

With no other creditable authority states that it is IMPOSSIBLE to spread the virus through saliva, so the onus is on YOU to prove what you are saying.  Where besides these forums does it go to the extreme and say it is IMPOSSIBLE to get hiv through saliva??  Not on the CDC website, not even on the real content on this website.  It's just mis-informed people like you going out on a limb and making this statement only because it is very low risk and you want it to be true.

As for as proof.. hello??  Did you forget about the famous toothbrush case?  Sounds like a documented case to me..  So I ask again, what is your definition of "impossible"?   1 in 1000, 1 in 10000, perhaps 1 in a million??  Just think if you were this unlucky millionth guy who got hiv because some mis-informed moderator (or authorized representative of him) on here stated that it was impossible?
Title: Re: HIV in Saliva Transmission Risk
Post by: GSOgymrat on April 21, 2010, 05:19:28 pm
From the CDC website:

Saliva, Tears, and Sweat
HIV has been found in saliva and tears in very low quantities from some AIDS patients. It is important to understand that finding a small amount of HIV in a body fluid does not necessarily mean that HIV can be transmitted by that body fluid. HIV has not been recovered from the sweat of HIV-infected persons. Contact with saliva, tears, or sweat has never been shown to result in transmission of HIV.

http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/resources/factsheets/transmission.htm

Phoenius, please show your reference for HIV being transmitted by saliva.
Title: Re: HIV in Saliva Transmission Risk
Post by: Matty the Damned on April 21, 2010, 05:19:45 pm
With no other creditable authority states that it is IMPOSSIBLE to spread the virus through saliva, so the onus is on YOU to prove what you are saying.  Where besides these forums does it go to the extreme and say it is IMPOSSIBLE to get hiv through saliva??  Not on the CDC website, not even on the real content on this website.  It's just mis-informed people like you going out on a limb and making this statement only because it is very low risk and you want it to be true.

Let's be clear about what's really going on here.

You've got a wasp up your ass about saliva and kissing because somehow you've managed to delude yourself into believing that's how you got HIV. So when you see things which challenge your fragile unreality, you lash out.

Really you're just a rather extreme variation on the ZOMG I GOT TEH AIDZ FROM TEH BLOWJOBZ theme.

That's cool.

Many newly diagnosed types are a bit brittle when it comes to coping with the reality of being HIV positive. I'm pretty sure you've been spending a lot of time trying to see "the bright side" of all this - your high school debating club thread in I just Tested Poz about why you started Atripla being a strong indicator of this.

MtD
Title: Re: HIV in Saliva Transmission Risk
Post by: Hellraiser on April 21, 2010, 05:30:15 pm
With no other creditable authority states that it is IMPOSSIBLE to spread the virus through saliva, so the onus is on YOU to prove what you are saying.  Where besides these forums does it go to the extreme and say it is IMPOSSIBLE to get hiv through saliva??  Not on the CDC website, not even on the real content on this website.  It's just mis-informed people like you going out on a limb and making this statement only because it is very low risk and you want it to be true.

As for as proof.. hello??  Did you forget about the famous toothbrush case?  Sounds like a documented case to me..  So I ask again, what is your definition of "impossible"?   1 in 1000, 1 in 10000, perhaps 1 in a million??  Just think if you were this unlucky millionth guy who got hiv because some mis-informed moderator (or authorized representative of him) on here stated that it was impossible?

Have you actually read through the "Am I infected?" forum?  Essentially some of these people would be driving themselves absolutely bat shit crazy if you gave them even a shred of proof that their unreasonable >IMPROBABLE< fears had any evidence behind them.  I have absolutely no problem with a 1 in 1,000,000 chance of saliva infectious being ruled out as virtually impossible.
Title: Re: HIV in Saliva Transmission Risk
Post by: skeebo1969 on April 21, 2010, 05:33:04 pm
From the CDC website:

Saliva, Tears, and Sweat
HIV has been found in saliva and tears in very low quantities from some AIDS patients. It is important to understand that finding a small amount of HIV in a body fluid does not necessarily mean that HIV can be transmitted by that body fluid. HIV has not been recovered from the sweat of HIV-infected persons. Contact with saliva, tears, or sweat has never been shown to result in transmission of HIV.

http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/resources/factsheets/transmission.htm

Phoenius, please show your reference for HIV being transmitted by saliva.

Hey Phoneyous I thought you said the CDC says nothing about this lie we tell here.....  well wtf is this stuff GSO found... must have been in the fine print on the side of the website or something.
Title: Re: HIV in Saliva Transmission Risk
Post by: Bucko on April 21, 2010, 05:49:41 pm
Let's be clear about what's really going on here.

You've got a wasp up your ass about saliva and kissing because somehow you've managed to delude yourself into believing that's how you got HIV. So when you see things which challenge your fragile unreality, you lash out.

Really you're just a rather extreme variation on the ZOMG I GOT TEH AIDZ FROM TEH BLOWJOBZ theme.

That's cool.

Many newly diagnosed types are a bit brittle when it comes to coping with the reality of being HIV positive. I'm pretty sure you've been spending a lot of time trying to see "the bright side" of all this - your high school debating club thread in I just Tested Poz about why you started Atripla being a strong indicator of this.

MtD

All the same, these immaculate infection threads never end well  ::)
Title: Re: HIV in Saliva Transmission Risk
Post by: newt on April 21, 2010, 05:51:23 pm
The biomechanics of HIV virus in saliva is against value in a discussion, ie

1. Saliva does carry detectable components of HIV (such as viral RNA and proviral DNA), but these are not infectious on their own. (So, strictly speaking HIV being detected in saliva means bits of HIV).

2. The environment that saliva provides is far too harsh for most infectious particles to remain intact and viable. To start, saliva is hypotonic and tends to disrupt any cells which may be floating around in it. It is designed to do this, it's part of the body's defences.

This combination of factors that mean HIV is almost certainly not transmissible via saliva alone. It is so improbable it's not worth testing. There will never be a study. So all that is left is an unreasonable anxiety.

All risks have boundaries, and one day sommat odd/stupid will happen under specific, one-off circumstances, like for the 2 or so cases of non-sexual household acquired HIV, but this does not mean this constitutes a "normal" or substantive and quantifiable risk worth highlighting.  

- matt
Title: Re: HIV in Saliva Transmission Risk
Post by: jkinatl2 on April 21, 2010, 07:10:21 pm
Apologies in advance for the volume of posting.

HIV and saliva
An article from "The Molecules of HIV" (c) Dan Stowell
www.mcld.co.uk/hiv
Occasionally I'm asked about whether HIV is present in an HIV-positive person's saliva, and whether it carries a risk of transmission.
The short answer is that saliva virtually never carries any infectious HIV at all.
It does carry detectable "components" of HIV (such as viral RNA and proviral DNA), but these are not infectious on their own. The environment that saliva provides is far too harsh for infectious particles to remain intact and viable.
There are a number of possible mechanisms that have been suggested, which might explain why saliva seems to be so good at destroying HIV. Specific enzymes present in saliva may be important, or the effect of antibodies in saliva. Additionally, the saliva is "hypotonic" and has a tendency to disrupt any cells which may be floating around in it. It's pretty much certain that it's the combination of these factors that mean HIV is not transmitted in saliva.
It may seem strange that such a dangerous virus can't survive in something as "harmless" as saliva. In fact, saliva is a part of the body's natural defences against infection. Additionally, remember that the HIV virus is actually quite fragile.
More information:
.   Shugars DC, Sweet SP, Malamud D, Kazmi S, Page-Shafer K, Challacombe SJ (2002)
.   Saliva and inhibition of HIV-1 infection: molecular mechanisms.
.   Oral Diseases 8: 169-175 Suppl. 2 2002
.   Baron S, Poast J, Cloyd MW (1999)
.   Why is HIV rarely transmitted by oral secretions? Saliva can disrupt orally shed, infected leukocytes.
Archives of Internal Medicine 159 (3): 303-310

Source:

http://www.mcld.co.uk/hiv/?q=HIV%20and%20saliva
Title: Re: HIV in Saliva Transmission Risk
Post by: jkinatl2 on April 21, 2010, 07:12:24 pm


No incident HIV infections among MSM who practice exclusively oral sex.
Int Conf AIDS 2004 Jul 11-16; 15:(abstract no. WePpC2072)??Balls JE, Evans JL, Dilley J, Osmond D, Shiboski S, Shiboski C, Klausner J, McFarland W, Greenspan D, Page-Shafer K?University of California, San Francisco, San Francisco, United States

Oral transmission of HIV, reality or fiction? An update
J Campo1, MA Perea1, J del Romero2, J Cano1, V Hernando2, A Bascones1
Oral Diseases (2006) 12, 219–228

AIDS:  Volume 16(17)  22 November 2002  pp 2350-2352
Risk of HIV infection attributable to oral sex among men who have sex with men and in the population of men who have sex with men

Page-Shafer, Kimberlya,b; Shiboski, Caroline Hb; Osmond, Dennis Hc; Dilley, Jamesd; McFarland, Willie; Shiboski, Steve Cc; Klausner, Jeffrey De; Balls, Joycea; Greenspan, Deborahb; Greenspan

Page-Shafer K, Veugelers PJ, Moss AR, Strathdee S, Kaldor JM, van Griensven GJ. Sexual risk behavior and risk factors for HIV-1 seroconversion in homosexual men participating in the Tricontinental Seroconverter Study, 1982-1994 [published erratum appears in Am J Epidemiol 1997 15 Dec; 146(12):1076]. Am J Epidemiol 1997, 146:531-542.

Studies which show the fallacy of relying on anecdotal evidence as opposed to carefully controlled study insofar as HIV transmission risk is concerned:

Jenicek M. "Clinical Case Reporting" in Evidence-Based Medicine. Oxford: Butterworth–Heinemann; 1999:117

Saltzman SP, Stoddard AM, McCusker J, Moon MW, Mayer KH. Reliability of self-reported sexual behavior risk factors for HIV infection in homosexual men. Public Health Rep. 1987 102(6):692–697.Nov–Dec;

Catania JA, Gibson DR, Chitwood DD, Coates TJ. Methodological problems in AIDS behavioral research: influences on measurement error and participation bias in studies of sexual behavior. Psychol Bull. 1990 Nov;108(3):339–362.
Title: Re: HIV in Saliva Transmission Risk
Post by: jkinatl2 on April 21, 2010, 07:14:47 pm
What bothers me is that people who claim that these assertions are made without any evidence have failed to perform the most rudimentary search of these forums.

http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=15891.0

http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=2511.0

http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=2244.0

http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=12630.0

http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=10457.0


http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=1 ... #msg127650


Title: Re: HIV in Saliva Transmission Risk
Post by: jkinatl2 on April 21, 2010, 07:15:11 pm

Mechanism of HIV transmission

The lessons part of this website contains a lot of the information you need. However HIV transmission can be broken down to the following general exposures.

1) Penetrative and receptive anal or vaginal sex
2) Sharing IV drug needles
3) Occupational exposure to blood and concentrated virus in clinical and research labs

Of the above, I will only discuss sexual exposures as this is the topic that is confused on this forum. I will try and give some guidelines for exposure and risk that I use, although one should ALWAYS seek professional medical help and take their advice over anything said on the internet.

Mucosal membranes

It has been incorrectly suggested that HIV transmission occurs via microcracks and lesions on the mucosa of genitalia and the GI tract. This is indeed is not how HIV is transmitted in the majority of cases.

Mucosal membranes are the first line of defense against invading pathogens and line a lot of the areas of our body. It can be generalized to any membrane that contains a layer of mucus on it (wet membranes). These are the nasal passages, mouth, throat, lungs, GI tract and sexual organs. However, HIV transmission can not occur in all of these places. For instance, HIV is NOT an airborne virus and therefore infection via the nasal passages and lungs need not be considered. The eyes and mouth contain many antiviral agents that combat viruses and bacteria and lower the effectiveness of HIV transmission in these areas. This is one of the reasons that oral sex is low on the risk list. These compounds are good at their job and can effectively neutralize viruses prior to infection and a multitude of studies show that. In addition, saliva does not contain active virus, which is why kissing is not a risk. Even if it did then the virus would be neutralized. Ingestion of infected semen therefore does not hold as much risk as one would imagine because of the bodies ability to kill viruses in this area. Small cuts on the teeth and gums might increase the risk slightly, but only very slightly because saliva is so good at its job. Only large areas of bleeding or weeping sores are of any concern but even in these cases, the body does a good job at protecting itself and high and repeated levels of HIV infected material need to be ingested to be of significant risk. Small cuts one gets from flossing and teeth cleaning are therefore of little consequence.

It is possible to be infected via the mouth and the eyes but these cases have been limited to high concentrations and volumes of HIV infected blood splashed into the eyes and/or mouth during occupational accidents. Blood contains the highest concentration of HIV of all the body fluids.


Making up a very small percentage of the mucosal membranes are cells of the immune system. It is these cells that are susceptible to HIV infection and it is these patrolling cells that are thought to be the targets for initial infection. However, they lie under the layer of secretions of the mucosal membrane that is hard to penetrate. In addition, HIV is not very transmissible and even if a virus came into contact with a susceptible cell, infection remains an unlikely event. Not all HIV particles are infectious. Estimates put the particle:infectivity ratio as low as one virus per 100. So, even if unprotected sex occurs, the likelihood that transmission will occur is low.

There are a multitude of other factors that can influence HIV infection the most important of which is surface area of the exposed tissue, length of time of exposure and concentration of virus within the infected material. In males the surface area is remarkably small, limited mainly to the urethra. In addition vaginal fluids contain low amounts of HIV, so low in fact that transmission is made more unlikely.

So how, you might ask, do men get HIV in the background of such factors that prevent HIV infection? In Africa the answer lies with the high incidence of other STDs. STDs cause an influx of immune cells to the sites of STD infection and these increases the number of potential targets for infection. The risk might double. One should not confuse STDs with abrasions and small cuts on the penis. While these break the skin or chap it, it reduces the skin to the level of a mucus membrane and thus doesn’t increase the risk much past what it is with unprotected sex, due to the insignificant increase of the surface area. If there is a large bleeding wound, then yes that would increase the chances of infection because the skin is compromised, but nobody has sex with a bleeding penis.

For women, the mucus membrane is larger and semen contains more infectious material. Therefore the chances of infection are slightly higher. However, one should not lose sight of the fact that the numbers are still remarkably low. Estimates put the risk from a single unprotected event as low as 1:1000. This is how effective the mucus membrane is at protecting your body. Infection can occur, but it remains an unlikely event.

In anal sex there are a few more things to consider. By design the human rectum is mainly an exit only device. The mucus membranes are therefore prone to a little damage from repeated thrusting from a penis or sexual device. In the case of anal sex, therefore, HIV transmission can occur through the breakage of the anal and rectal mucosal membranes. Again, although it might seem like HIV transmission would be a likely event, it remains lower than most viral transmissions. Hemorrhoids make HIV infection more likely.

So what does a worry well do with this sort of information? Well, don’t panic for starters. Although I have described how HIV is transmitted, don’t forget that of all viruses, HIV remains a hard one to get. Let’s compare it quickly with other viruses. Influenza virus infects cells of the respiratory tract, which are present at high concentration. Therefore inhalation of infected droplets will likely lead to infection (if someone producing virus sneezes on you). The concentration of Influenza is also higher than that of HIV and the particle:infectivity ratio is also high. So, you are likely to get the flu if you are exposed to it. The opposite is true for HIV. If you are exposed to HIV, the mere presence of the virus does not lead to transmission because of difficulty in finding a target cell, the presence of mucus and the rather rubbish ability of HIV particles to complete an infectious cycle. Indeed, in most cases it doesn’t. On the rare occasion that HIV can even get to the cells it wants to infect, it remains unable to do so due to a low particle:infectivity ratio.

So what steps can you take to protect yourself? The answer is use condoms. This will prevent HIV infected material from contacting mucus membranes and that will be enough. What if a condom bursts? Well, the condom will still protect you or your partner. As they don’t break immediately they are used, they still offer some protection. As I said, one of the factors is duration of exposure, so if the condom breaks and you keep banging away happily for another two or three minutes, the level of risk doesn’t increase to that of unprotected sex but rather still remains lower.

What about cuts and scratches? As I have said, an open cut is an area that can lead to transmission. However, it has to be bleeding. Semi-healed cuts retain some of that barrier and are not as great a risk as people imagine. Don’t forget that the presence of virus on these areas does not mean infection takes place. Furthermore when the virus is outside the warm and wet environment of the body, it starts to dry and this leads to further inactivation of the virus and the still lowering of the particle to infectivity ratio. Don’t forget about the size of the cut either. A small cut or dermatitis isn’t going to increase your risk significantly so if you had sex with shaving scars on your genitals, these are not of much concern.

People often make the mistake of thinking that HIV is like other viruses and mere exposure leads to infection. I can’t stress strongly enough how low the transmission rate is compared to other viruses. For all the reasons above, HIV is not easy to get and the use of condoms prevents HIV transmission. If you got HIV infected semen or vaginal fluids on your skin that is no risk at all. If you got it into a cut then this is only a marginal risk, made lower if the cut is small (such as a hangnail). One thing to watch for is exposure of cuts to blood. The only reason to be concerned there is because the concentration of HIV is higher in blood.

Hope that clears things up a bit…
Title: Re: HIV in Saliva Transmission Risk
Post by: jkinatl2 on April 21, 2010, 07:16:11 pm
AIDS:  Volume 16(17)  22 November 2002  pp 2350-2352
Risk of HIV infection attributable to oral sex among men who have sex with men and in the population of men who have sex with men

Page-Shafer, Kimberlya,b; Shiboski, Caroline Hb; Osmond, Dennis Hc; Dilley, Jamesd; McFarland, Willie; Shiboski, Steve Cc; Klausner, Jeffrey De; Balls, Joycea; Greenspan, Deborahb; Greenspan, John Sb

aCenter for AIDS Prevention Studies, Department of Medicine, bDepartment of Stomatology, School of Dentistry, and cDepartment of Epidemiology and Biostatistics, University of California San Francisco, San Francisco, CA, USA; dAIDS Health Project, San Francisco, CA, USA; and eSan Francisco Department of Public Health, San Francisco, CA, USA.

Sponsorship: This work was supported by a grant from NIDCR (1 R01 DE12911-01) and was presented in part at the 2nd National HIV Prevention Conference, Atlanta, GA, 14 August 2001.

Received: 3 January 2002; revised: 6 June 2002; accepted: 20 June 2002.

We examined HIV infection and estimated the population-attributable risk percentage (PAR%) for HIV associated with fellatio among men who have sex with men (MSM). Among 239 MSM who practised exclusively fellatio in the past 6 months, 50% had three partners, 98% unprotected; and 28% had an HIV-positive partner; no HIV was detected. PAR%, based on the number of fellatio partners, ranges from 0.10% for one partner to 0.31% for three partners. The risk of HIV attributable to fellatio is extremely low.

Since HIV was identified as being sexually transmitted, there has been considerable interest in the risk associated with performing fellatio. Although early studies found no independent risk for fellatio, the high correlation among multiple sexual practices raised the possibility that risk existed but could not be detected. Subsequently, case reports accumulated, largely among men who denied other risk behaviors [1]. Researchers acknowledged that fellatio, although not an efficient route of infection, nonetheless appeared to carry a small risk. Two studies provided quantitative estimates of the low risk among men who have sex with men (MSM) [2,3]. One [3] estimated the per-contact risk of unprotected fellatio with an HIV-positive or unknown HIV status partner [4/10 000; 95% confidence interval (CI) 0.01%, 0.17%] to be lower than the per-contact risk of acquiring HIV from protected receptive anal intercourse (RAI) (0.18%; 95% CI 0.10%, 0.28%).

Current 'safe sex' guidelines specify that unprotected orogenital sex is unsafe but low risk. A recent study of primary infection in San Francisco [4] reported that 8% of HIV-positive participants acquired HIV from fellatio. This finding has been widely interpreted that as many as 8% of HIV infections among MSM are attributable to fellatio [5]. It is understandable, given these conflicting messages, that individuals continue to ask for greater clarity regarding this risk. The population-attributable risk percentage (PAR%) is of special interest, because even a low-risk exposure could result in a substantial proportion of infections.

We present preliminary results from an ongoing study investigating orally acquired HIV infection demonstrating: (i) that such infection is rare; and (ii) conduct analyses using previously published data to show that the PAR% of HIV attributable to fellatio is also extremely low.

From December 1999 to 2001, individuals seeking HIV testing at an anonymous testing site in San Francisco were screened to identify those who in the past 6 months reported no anal or vaginal sex, had not injected drugs, and had performed fellatio on at least one male partner. Eligible participants completed a pre-HIV test survey, measuring a 6-month history of sexual practices. Post-interview HIV serology was conducted to determine participants' HIV serology using using enzyme immunoassays, Western blot confirmation, and a sensitive/less sensitive enzyme immunoassay strategy [6] to identify recently acquired infection. PAR% was estimated using Levin's formula: (p S(RR - 1)/(p(RR - 1) - 1) * 100), where p is the population exposure prevalence, and RR is relative risk [7]. An estimate of RR from previously published data was used [2], and the prevalence p of fellatio partners was obtained from data collected in a population-based study of MSM [8]. We estimated the prevalence p from data collected in baseline interviews in which participants were asked how many fellatio (receptive oral sex) partners they had had in the previous year. Analyses have shown that the prevalence of fellatio [9] and fellatio partners (unpublished data) has not changed significantly since that study was initiated. As the median number of reported fellatio partners in the previous year reported by participants in this study was three (range 0-400), we estimated the PAR% for one, two, and three fellatio partners.

Of 10 283 anonymous testing site clients, 413 (4%) were eligible, and 243 (2.3%) participated. Of those, 239 (98%) were men, whose median age was 39 years, and all were MSM. Four women were dropped from the analysis. No recently acquired HIV infections were detected and the estimated probability of orally acquired HIV was 0 (95% CI 0, 1.5%). The median number of fellatio partners in the past 6 months was three (interquartile range 1-6), almost all (98%) were unprotected. One third (35%) reported getting semen in their mouth, and of those, 70% swallowed it. Fellatio on a known HIV-positive partner was reported by 28%; of those, 81% did not use a condom, and 39% had swallowed ejaculate.

The PAR% rises as the number of partners increases: PAR% for one fellatio partner (p = 18%, RR = 1.01) was estimated at 0.18%, for two fellatio partners (p = 12%, RR = 1.02) at 0.25% and for three fellatio partners (p = 10%, RR = 1.03) as 0.31%. The cumulative PAR% for one to three fellatio partners could thus be 0.74%.

The absence of HIV infections detected in this sample confirms previous research that orally acquired HIV infection is rare. HIV prevalence and incidence among MSM who tested at the same anonymous testing sites in San Francisco during a similar time period (December 1999 to February 2001) were appreciably higher. The overall prevalence of HIV infection was 3.3% (95% CI 2.9-3.9), and among repeat testers the incidence was 1.9/100 person-years (95% CI 1.6-2.3). Among those who reported unprotected RAI, HIV prevalence and incidence were 5.1% (95% CI, 4.1-6.3) and 3.5/100 person-years (95% CI, 2.7-4.5), respectively. Among those who reported protected RAI, HIV prevalence and incidence was 2.3% (95% CI, 1.7-3.1) and 1.7/100 person-years (95%CI 1.2-2.3), respectively (T. Kellogg, San Francisco Department of Public Health, personal communication). These figures reveal the striking difference in the risk of HIV between those who report exclusively fellatio and those who report higher-risk sexual behaviors.

A strength of this study is that participants were queried about behaviors before HIV testing. Consistently, studies that rely on individuals identifying 'how they got infected', report a higher proportion of orally acquired infections than can be reliably established [4,5]. HIV-positive MSM may inaccurately report higher-risk exposures for reasons including social desirability and recall. Men may also report having only oral sex as a risk behavior because that is the only 'unprotected' sexual behavior they engage in, not acknowledging anal sex when a condom was used. Vittinghoff et al. [3] hypothesized that condom breakage or slippage could account for the higher per-act infectivity of protected anal sex compared with unprotected fellatio.

Our results are based on a modest sample size; therefore, we cannot rule out the possibility that the probability of infection is indeed greater than zero. Our data and those of others (D. Osmond, San Francisco Young Men's Health Study: ≤ 3%, unpublished data) show that the proportion of individuals who engage exclusively in fellatio is very low, thus obtaining precise and reliable estimates of the per-partner and per-contact risks of acquiring HIV from fellatio will be difficult. The likely importance of heterogeneity of susceptibility and infectiousness add further uncertainty to quantifying risk.

Our calculations showing very low PAR% are consistent with the findings of extremely low individual risk. In addition, if one considers that only a fraction of those who report fellatio are actually exposed to semen (35%), the PAR% will be considerably lower.

These data confirm that the risk of HIV infection attributable to fellatio among MSM and in the MSM population is especially low. It is important that health professionals, including HIV counsellors have valid information to impart to their sexually active clients. If individuals believe that the risk of HIV from fellatio is high or on a par with well-documented high-risk exposures such as anogenital sex, they may not feel that sexual behavior choices make a difference. Acquiring HIV through fellatio is significantly less risky than from anal sex, and therefore one's choice of sexual practices do matter.
Acknowledgements

The authors would like to acknowledge help from the following organizations and people who contributed to this project: Tim Kellogg at the San Francisco Department of Public Health; Dr Ron Stall, who contributed greatly to the inception and realization of the study; the Counseling and Testing Staff at the AIDS Health Project, especially Shannon Casey, Daniel Tracy, Barbara Adler and Joanna Rinaldi; Yvonne de Souza, Behnahz Cheikh, Mariza Labao, and staff from the Oral AIDS Center at UCSF; Henry Raymond at the Center for AIDS Prevention Studies, UCSF; Dr Robert Bolan at the Los Angeles Gay and Lesbian Project.
References
1.Rothenberg RB, Scarlett M, del Rio C, Reznik D, O'Daniels C. Oral transmission of HIV. AIDS 1998, 12:2095-2105.
[Medline Link] [Fulltext Link] [CrossRef] [Context Link]
2.Page-Shafer K, Veugelers PJ, Moss AR, Strathdee S, Kaldor JM, van Griensven GJ. Sexual risk behavior and risk factors for HIV-1 seroconversion in homosexual men participating in the Tricontinental Seroconverter Study, 1982-1994 [published erratum appears in Am J Epidemiol 1997 15 Dec; 146(12):1076]. Am J Epidemiol 1997, 146:531-542.
[Medline Link] [Context Link]
3.Vittinghoff E, Douglas J, Judson F, McKirnan D, MacQueen K, Buchbinder SP. Per-contact risk of human immunodeficiency virus transmission between male sexual partners. Am J Epidemiol 1999, 150:306-311.
[Medline Link] [Context Link]
4.Dillon B, Hecht F, Swanson M, et al. Primary HIV infections associated with oral transmission. In: 7th Conference on Retroviruses and Opportunistic Infections. San Francisco, 2000 [Abstract 473].
[Context Link]
5.Hawkins D. Oral sex and HIV transmission. Sex Transm Infect 2001, 77:307-308.
[Medline Link] [CrossRef] [Context Link]
6.Janssen RS, Satten GA, Stramer SL, et al. New testing strategy to detect early HIV-1 infection for use in incidence estimates and for clinical and prevention purposes [published erratum appears in JAMA 1999 26 May; 281(20):1893]. JAMA 1998, 280:42-48.
[Medline Link] [Context Link]
7.Kelsey JL, Thompson WD, Evans AS. Methods in observational epidemiology. New York, NY: Oxford University Press, Inc.; 1986.
[Context Link]
8.Osmond DH, Page K, Wiley J, et al. HIV infection in homosexual and bisexual men 18 to 29 years of age: the San Francisco Young Men's Health Study. Am J Public Health 1994, 84:1933-1937.
[Medline Link] [Context Link]
9.Osmond DH, Buchbinder S, Cheng A, et al. Prevalence of Kaposi sarcoma-associated herpesvirus infection in homosexual men at beginning of and during the HIV epidemic. JAMA 2002, 287:221-225.
[Context Link]
© 2002 Lippincott Williams & Wilkins, Inc
Title: Re: HIV in Saliva Transmission Risk
Post by: Rev. Moon on April 21, 2010, 07:18:44 pm
This qualifies as one of the dumbest, most ignorant, and most dangerously inaccurate threads ever created.  Seeing this kind of bullshit makes me seriously angry.

Do your damned homework before you say anything like this.

I'm sure that you have a name for your virus: Jesus. You probably blame the Holy Spirit for your positive status.
Title: Re: HIV in Saliva Transmission Risk
Post by: jkinatl2 on April 21, 2010, 07:58:10 pm
Let's be clear about what's really going on here.

You've got a wasp up your ass about saliva and kissing because somehow you've managed to delude yourself into believing that's how you got HIV. So when you see things which challenge your fragile unreality, you lash out.

Really you're just a rather extreme variation on the ZOMG I GOT TEH AIDZ FROM TEH BLOWJOBZ theme.

That's cool.

Many newly diagnosed types are a bit brittle when it comes to coping with the reality of being HIV positive. I'm pretty sure you've been spending a lot of time trying to see "the bright side" of all this - your high school debating club thread in I just Tested Poz about why you started Atripla being a strong indicator of this.

MtD

I am always dismayed when I hear efforts to claim that the assertions on AM I (and in the Transmission section) are made without merit and without substantiation.

Thing is, I rarely wade into posts in the Recently Infected forum, or even here, when someone claims an unlikely source of transmission. I understand that the psychology of HIV infection is complex, and that people are often brittle and fragile when they enter a forum, or walk through the world in which they have HIV.

HIV is a tough weight to carry, and for some people, they need denial, and anger, and the absolute assurance that they did "all the right things" and still somehow got this virus.

The stigma of being infected remains a strong one. And even in the HIV community, there is a hierarchy of the infected. Those who are born with it, of course, being on the highest tier. Those who shared IV drug needles are commonly on the lower tiers of that hierarchy.

Not that this matters to a virus. A virus wants what it wants, and once it is inside the body, it wants to reproduce. We let this stigma bleed into our lives when we insist that only promiscuous people get HIV, or those who practice receptive anal sex, or share needles. When we try to assert a moral component to what is essentially a chemical process.

I notice that, after a few years of infection, a lot of that anger, that denial, that need to somehow be absolved for the sin of our sexuality, dissipates. Simply put, I don't think it possible to sustain that level of anxiety beyond a certain point. Well, not without veering dangerously close to some of the bat-shit craziness that has graced these forums on more than one occasion.

We are made to live in linear time. It is the very definition of insanity to exist in a single moment (our infection) and resist moving through that, past that. I think that best purpose of these forums could be providing the support necessary for that process to begin, and then to sustain it through the journey.

So it's hard to come down on someone who is recently diagnosed, and I normally do not debate science with someone who is not at a point where they can participate in what is often painfully critical thinking. 

But in the AM I INFECTED forum, I do not see those rules as having application. There, a far harder scientific foundation is necessary, with far less regard for the sensibilities of the persons involved. In the years since I became a member of AIDSMEDS, I think there have been maybe a dozen, perhaps two dozen, of the people who have tested positive after posting in the AM I forum. And almost all of those people had a scientifically verifiable risky exposure to HIV.

I am deeply sorry if I come across as insensitive sometimes. It is not my intention. My own way of coping with HIV is hardly a model for others. But one of the most important things to me has been the science behind HIV. Imprecise though it is, and subject to corruption as the pharma companies are, it is still the closest to the Socratic method as I am going to find on the subject.

Title: Re: HIV in Saliva Transmission Risk
Post by: jkinatl2 on April 21, 2010, 08:09:49 pm
Lets discuss, debate and put this behind us.  But in their arrogance they will probably just delete this.

Having read the entirety of your missive, I now regret putting the effort into once again posting the science I did. It appears that your intent is to disrupt, and not to discuss.

There is indeed a vetting process for those allowed to participate in the AM I INFECTED forum. Trust me, playing party politics is not one of them. I caused quite a stir in the early years, with my own dogged insistence on first-tiered peer-reviewed science as the foundation for transmission theory as expressed in AIDSMEDS.

It is my opinion that we must substantiate as much as can be substantiated without the reliance on anecdotal data and patient report -which is a notoriously unreliable form of scientific inquiry. And yes, I have the source for that opinion as well :)

I am sorry, however, to have spent substantial time on the conversation that is not, in retrospect, really a conversation at all, but an accusation.



Title: Re: HIV in Saliva Transmission Risk
Post by: jkinatl2 on April 21, 2010, 08:17:09 pm

HIV has been isolated from saliva, but this does not mean that virus present in saliva is active and capable of mounting an infection.

MtD

To that point, HIV has been isolated in tears and sweat as well. I do not look forward to the newly infected person who claims to have gotten HIV through the gym, or a hot tub, or through the tears of a friend. And I see accepting a sliding scale of scientific credibility to be a road that goes straight there.
Title: Re: HIV in Saliva Transmission Risk
Post by: RapidRod on April 21, 2010, 08:46:01 pm
http://www.aegis.com/news/pr/1998/pr980105.html (http://www.aegis.com/news/pr/1998/pr980105.html)

Study Shows Component of Saliva is Very Effective in Blocking AIDS Virus Potential for Use in Preventing Sexual Transmission of HIV

PR Newswire; Wednesday January 7, 6:42 pm EST


NEW YORK, Jan. 7 /PRNewswire/ -- Research conducted at The New York Hospital-Cornell University Medical College has found that a natural component of human saliva has a very powerful effect in blocking the growth of laboratory strains of HIV as well as AIDS viruses taken directly from patients. This finding could lead to the development of natural inhibitors to HIV transmission.
In a study published in the January 5 issue of the Journal of Experimental Medicine, Dr. Jeffrey Laurence, Director of the Laboratory for AIDS Virus Research; Dr. Ralph Nachman, Chairman of the Department of Medicine; Dr. Roy L. Silverstein, Chief of the Division of Hematology-Oncology; and a team of biomedical scientists describe how they have identified a natural sugar-protein, concentrated in saliva, known as TSP (thrombospondin), and discovered its remarkable ability to block the growth of the AIDS virus.

Recognizing that over the past years several labs have found a variety of substances in human saliva that partially inhibit the growth of HIV, Dr. Laurence and his research team delved further into this phenomenon.

Dr. Laurence said, "We began by exploring why there is so little HIV virus in saliva, while large amounts of the virus are found in other body fluids; and why human saliva is so effective at blocking the growth of the AIDS virus in the test tube. This led us to the discovery of TSP."

According to Dr. Laurence, "We made the observation that thrombospondin type 1 (TSP-1) can block HIV-1 infection of primary human cells and transform human cell lines of T lymphocyte and monocyte lineages. TSP is effective against both laboratory-adapted strains of HIV-1 and HIV-1 patient isolates. It is active at physiologic concentrations. Saliva experiments indicate that TSP-1 is a major component of the natural HIV inhibitory capacity of saliva."

TSP is of particular interest as a natural inhibitor, as others have shown that it may promote wound healing, and suppression of some bacterial infections. Higher levels of TSP in the saliva of some male, as opposed to female, animals may relate to the more frequent wounding of male animals. Wound licking, with application of saliva molecules that could inhibit infection, would then be very beneficial.

Speaking of the application of this research, Dr. Nachman said, "This is an exciting finding that is another step forward in our research efforts aimed at preventing AIDS transmission. TSP derivatives could potentially be used vaginally, rectally and orally in condoms, foams, suppositories, mouthwashes and toothpastes to inhibit transmission of the AIDS virus."

While TSP is a very large molecule that would be unwieldy to use directly in patients, the Cornell research team also investigated the mechanism of action of TSP. They found that peptides -- small pieces of the larger TSP -- could block binding of the AIDS virus to its receptor on immune cells. This offers the potential for direct use of these smaller molecules to prevent sexual transmission of HIV.

Funding for this work was provided by the Dental, Heart/Lung/Blood, and Allergy/Immunology Institutes of the NIH.

SOURCE: The New York Hospital - Cornell Medical Center
Title: Re: HIV in Saliva Transmission Risk
Post by: xman on April 21, 2010, 08:50:30 pm
If you want a life with no risk zip up your mouth and get in an antiradiation suit. Doing so you'll die anyway some day.
Title: Re: HIV in Saliva Transmission Risk
Post by: Hellraiser on April 21, 2010, 08:53:26 pm
So, Phoenius, I don't want this parade of posts to scare you away from the forums.  You seem like a very bright guy and I for one value your input along with everyone else's.  However, advocating the HIV infection is capable through saliva is just not a winner.
Title: Re: HIV in Saliva Transmission Risk
Post by: xman on April 21, 2010, 08:58:56 pm
(http://www.elpassoblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/NakedGunfullbodycondom.png)
LOL

Courtesy of Paramount Pictures
Title: Re: HIV in Saliva Transmission Risk
Post by: tednlou2 on April 22, 2010, 12:36:09 am
HIV is a very hard virus to transmit.  It does make me think we all just had to be very unlucky and would have had a better chance of winning the lottery--or so it would seem.  I also wonder how many poz people, both male and female, I had sex with but escaped the virus those times.  It obviously eventually caught up to me.  We all could have had sex with several HIVers, but just didn't get infected those times, because the virus is actually hard to transmit.

I've wondered before how many on here know exactly how they contracted the virus--any who only performed oral and got it that way (doubt any at all), total tops, and bottoms.  I believe I contracted the virus due to not having much receptive anal sex.  Then, my friend tried using a toy on me causing trauma to the anal area, then he (well endowed) performed insertive anal sex on me causing further trauma, then he took the condom off without me knowing and reinserted until I realized he took the condom off.  I often wonder how much him trying to use that large toy on me created the perfect storm.  I can wonder until the cows come home.  I do know that I wouldn't have gotten it from kissing, from his sweat, and very, very unlikely from oral.  It was taking it up the rear and not making damn sure that condom stayed on.
Title: Re: HIV in Saliva Transmission Risk
Post by: Phoenius10 on April 22, 2010, 01:51:11 am
From the CDC website:

Saliva, Tears, and Sweat
HIV has been found in saliva and tears in very low quantities from some AIDS patients. It is important to understand that finding a small amount of HIV in a body fluid does not necessarily mean that HIV can be transmitted by that body fluid. HIV has not been recovered from the sweat of HIV-infected persons. Contact with saliva, tears, or sweat has never been shown to result in transmission of HIV.

http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/resources/factsheets/transmission.htm

Phoenius, please show your reference for HIV being transmitted by saliva.

Please show me the word "impossible to spread" in that statement about saliva.  It only says that HIV was not found in sweat, NOT saliva.  So one can perhaps imply hiv cannot be spread through sweat since it is not present.  But nowhere in that paragraph does it say or can be implied that saliva is not a transmission source.  It leaves it up to the reader to make their own judgement since it can't really be proven or disproved due to the low chance.  So how people can say it's IMPOSSIBLE given the facts is plain foolish.
Title: Re: HIV in Saliva Transmission Risk
Post by: Phoenius10 on April 22, 2010, 02:11:27 am
I found that these forums are VERY biased because most who post here are HIV+.  Of course HIV+ people would like to believe a very low chance means IMPOSSIBLE.  Who would want to use a condom for everything?  I sure wouldn't.  But it's time to be realistic.  Low probability is not IMPOSSIBLE!  The chances of getting hiv from any one sex act with a pos person was determined to be low probablility.. something like 0.05%.  If it wasn't, a lot more people would have hiv right now.  So we all are here because of a very low probability chance.  So its disturbing to me that all of you can't appreciate what a low chance even means, being as you yourselves are only here because you were that one unlucky person already.

There can be fresh blood anyone's saliva and whether the saliva itself can kill the virus is even meaningless when that happens.  We don't know how long it can last in blood mixed with saliva.. do you??  It's something you have to consider when saliva is used as lube especially.

And I say again, no website of authority, not even this one, states its impossible to spread hiv through saliva.  And there's good reason for that.  Only the misguided people on these forums with their wishful opinions are telling people these false lies.   The word impossible should not be used.  "Very low risk" should be used along with explaining the factors that could make it possible, ie blood in the saliva and an open wound.   This isn't rocket science here.

What bothers me is that people who claim that these assertions are made without any evidence have failed to perform the most rudimentary search of these forums.

http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=15891.0

http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=2511.0

http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=2244.0

http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=12630.0

http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=10457.0


http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=1 ... #msg127650



Title: Re: HIV in Saliva Transmission Risk
Post by: Alain on April 22, 2010, 02:22:38 am
Hi Phoenius10,

If you don't mind me asking, are you defining yourself as a gay men or Bisexual?
Title: Re: HIV in Saliva Transmission Risk
Post by: Bucko on April 22, 2010, 02:54:01 am
So you're saying that you've never been penetrated, not once (never), anally?
Title: Re: HIV in Saliva Transmission Risk
Post by: tednlou2 on April 22, 2010, 03:13:01 am
I found that these forums are VERY biased because most who post here are HIV+.  Of course HIV+ people would like to believe a very low chance means IMPOSSIBLE.  Who would want to use a condom for everything?  I sure wouldn't.  But it's time to be realistic.  Low probability is not IMPOSSIBLE!  The chances of getting hiv from any one sex act with a pos person was determined to be low probablility.. something like 0.05%.  If it wasn't, a lot more people would have hiv right now.  So we all are here because of a very low probability chance.  So its disturbing to me that all of you can't appreciate what a low chance even means, being as you yourselves are only here because you were that one unlucky person already.

There can be fresh blood anyone's saliva and whether the saliva itself can kill the virus is even meaningless when that happens.  We don't know how long it can last in blood mixed with saliva.. do you??  It's something you have to consider when saliva is used as lube especially.

And I say again, no website of authority, not even this one, states its impossible to spread hiv through saliva.  And there's good reason for that.  Only the misguided people on these forums with their wishful opinions are telling people these false lies.   The word impossible should not be used.  "Very low risk" should be used along with explaining the factors that could make it possible, ie blood in the saliva and an open wound.   This isn't rocket science here.


I understand your argument.  There is a lot of misinformation and things we just don't know.  I think most of us have heard people say HIV is killed as soon as it hits the air.  I've heard so many say that.  Well, is all of it killed immediately?  I understand what you're saying.  There is a big debate about super-infections as well.  Many think they are very real and happen at any stage of the disease.  Most think it doesn't happen or only happens when you're first infected.

Your argument is that people should say it has never been documented that saliva transmitted HIV instead of saying it is impossible?  I think the evidence shows it is not transmitted via tears or saliva.  If there is blood in the saliva, then the transmission would come from the blood and not the saliva.  Since all the data shows it isn't transmitted through saliva and tears, I think it would be irresponsible to go around saying you can get it from kissing.  Too many people have worked so hard to reduce the stigma and fears.  I will admit that some keep this going by saying to avoid deep throat kissing. 
Title: Re: HIV in Saliva Transmission Risk
Post by: azprince on April 22, 2010, 07:29:33 am
If I am understanding correctly, I think the first thread was about HOW the information is presented , while I dont want to get into the issue of Saliva  through kissing, I do agree that the forum of am I infected is getting too unfriendly for information seekers!
Andy Velez who is running the forum of am I infected like a dictator is quite insensitive to guys who are panicking and seeking information , I think he is trying to be firm with them to calm them down , but he ignores the simple fact that  when someone is in a panic and shock , the last thing he needs is such an aggressive old man answering him in the most rude way....
I remember a year ago when I was passing through the same difficult time, Andy was very rude when answering my questions , he only made me more depressed and angry, a year passed and I cant get over it...
I wonder what is the point of having a rude moderator on a website that is supposed to promote support and understating to people with a chronic illness??  if Andy Velvez was on a website that deals with victims of cancer and he answered their questions in the same rude  way, he would have been sued !

I hope he reconsiders his attitude with those young kids who are already scared .
Title: Re: HIV in Saliva Transmission Risk
Post by: RapidRod on April 22, 2010, 07:40:42 am
If I am understanding correctly, I think the first thread was about HOW the information is presented , while I dont want to get into the issue of Saliva  through kissing, I do agree that the forum of am I infected is getting too unfriendly for information seekers!
Andy Velez who is running the forum of am I infected like a dictator is quite insensitive to guys who are panicking and seeking information , I think he is trying to be firm with them to calm them down , but he ignores the simple fact that  when someone is in a panic and shock , the last thing he needs is such an aggressive old man answering him in the most rude way....
I remember a year ago when I was passing through the same difficult time, Andy was very rude when answering my questions , he only made me more depressed and angry, a year passed and I cant get over it...
I wonder what is the point of having a rude moderator on a website that is supposed to promote support and understating to people with a chronic illness??  if Andy Velvez was on a website that deals with victims of cancer and he answered their questions in the same rude  way, he would have been sued !

I hope he reconsiders his attitude with those young kids who are already scared .

No one asked you.
Title: Re: HIV in Saliva Transmission Risk
Post by: Matty the Damned on April 22, 2010, 07:50:39 am
If I am understanding correctly, I think the first thread was about HOW the information is presented , while I dont want to get into the issue of Saliva  through kissing, I do agree that the forum of am I infected is getting too unfriendly for information seekers!
Andy Velez who is running the forum of am I infected like a dictator is quite insensitive to guys who are panicking and seeking information , I think he is trying to be firm with them to calm them down , but he ignores the simple fact that  when someone is in a panic and shock , the last thing he needs is such an aggressive old man answering him in the most rude way....
I remember a year ago when I was passing through the same difficult time, Andy was very rude when answering my questions , he only made me more depressed and angry, a year passed and I cant get over it...
I wonder what is the point of having a rude moderator on a website that is supposed to promote support and understating to people with a chronic illness??  if Andy Velvez was on a website that deals with victims of cancer and he answered their questions in the same rude  way, he would have been sued !

I hope he reconsiders his attitude with those young kids who are already scared .


OK this is utter fucking crap. I've known Andy for 5 years and we've never gotten along very well but that's largely because I'm an arrogant douchebag.

Andy Velez may be many things, but he's not rude, insensitive or aggressive.

AMI is run the way it is for a reason. You don't do those people any favours by indulging them with well intentioned hand holding and coddling. That just enables their bad behaviour.

Andy may be firm, but I'm yet to see him be rude to a WW. On the contrary, he's an exemplar of the civil, no nonsense and highly professional attitude which typifies our work in AMI and frankly, AZ, you do him an enormous disservice with this ill considered attack.

MtD
Title: Re: HIV in Saliva Transmission Risk
Post by: bocker3 on April 22, 2010, 07:52:10 am
the last thing he needs is such an aggressive old man answering him in the most rude way....

So you are saying that it would be OK if it were an aggressive "young man"???  
Probably not -- I guess it's just you being rude to someone on this website.

As to the topic of this thread -- you can NEVER scientifically prove that something is impossible.  All you can do is look at the data and come up with how likely something is to happen.  So, while you are likely to never see a scientific journal say that something absolutely can not happen -- when you see comments like "no documented cases have been seen", or something similar -- there is pretty strong evidence that it is unlikely to happen (assuming it has been extensively looked into, of course).

You are looking for a word "impossible" that you will never see -- however, lack of "impossible" does not mean the evidence points to it being possible -- it simply means that it can't be SCIENTIFICALLY disproved.

My advice -- move on -- get over this obsession.  If you want to use this site as support, stop picking a fight that you will not win, this site is filled with caring, supportive people.  If you joined this site simply to "fight" about this topic -- then please move on somewhere else.

Mike
Title: Re: HIV in Saliva Transmission Risk
Post by: azprince on April 22, 2010, 08:07:24 am
Mike,
I hope it was clear that I was referring to the fact that he is aggressive and rude regardless of age( I am amazed that you picked the od man out of the phrase  :D, him being an old man would only make me think he should be nicer and more compassionate with the kids who are freaking out about their status...
And yes there are many supportive guys here, but its too bad that a moderator is acting rudely ...

As I said . I am not getting into the saliva thing, things  can prove to be  facts then change within 10 years
Title: Re: HIV in Saliva Transmission Risk
Post by: Dachshund on April 22, 2010, 08:09:14 am
If I am understanding correctly, I think the first thread was about HOW the information is presented , while I dont want to get into the issue of Saliva  through kissing, I do agree that the forum of am I infected is getting too unfriendly for information seekers!
Andy Velez who is running the forum of am I infected like a dictator is quite insensitive to guys who are panicking and seeking information , I think he is trying to be firm with them to calm them down , but he ignores the simple fact that  when someone is in a panic and shock , the last thing he needs is such an aggressive old man answering him in the most rude way....
I remember a year ago when I was passing through the same difficult time, Andy was very rude when answering my questions , he only made me more depressed and angry, a year passed and I cant get over it...
I wonder what is the point of having a rude moderator on a website that is supposed to promote support and understating to people with a chronic illness??  if Andy Velvez was on a website that deals with victims of cancer and he answered their questions in the same rude  way, he would have been sued !

I hope he reconsiders his attitude with those young kids who are already scared .


There is one thing Andy isn't, and that is rude. If anything he is way too accommodating to knuckleheads.
Title: Re: HIV in Saliva Transmission Risk
Post by: loop78 on April 22, 2010, 08:20:49 am
Andy Velez who is running the forum of am I infected like a dictator is quite insensitive to guys who are panicking and seeking information , I think he is trying to be firm with them to calm them down , but he ignores the simple fact that  when someone is in a panic and shock , the last thing he needs is such an aggressive old man answering him in the most rude way....
I remember a year ago when I was passing through the same difficult time, Andy was very rude when answering my questions , he only made me more depressed and angry, a year passed and I cant get over it...
I wonder what is the point of having a rude moderator on a website that is supposed to promote support and understating to people with a chronic illness??  if Andy Velvez was on a website that deals with victims of cancer and he answered their questions in the same rude  way, he would have been sued !

I hope he reconsiders his attitude with those young kids who are already scared.

I wanted to stay away from this thread as I was convinced whatever reasons I were able to provide to the OP about his irrational fears about saliva would fall on deaf ears, as the whole question stinks of argument from ignorance (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance#Argument_from_ignorance).

Anyway, this comment about Andy made me come out of the proverbial closet just to say he, as well as Matty, Ann and the rest, were extremely helpful and sensitive when I went through the hard time of testing +, and I believe being categorical in their answers is a service to the community as otherwise they would promote unnecessary worrying and unwarranted fear.

Edit: What bocker just beat me to write :-)
Title: Re: HIV in Saliva Transmission Risk
Post by: Assurbanipal on April 22, 2010, 08:42:41 am
AZ

I went back and read your initial thread in "Am I Infected?"  It's probably still very difficult for you to do that, because learning you have become infected is very traumatizing.  It wouldn't be surprising for you to have some emotional scars from that experience

But, if you can, I'd encourage you to reread it.  I think if you do so you  will see that Andy was doing what he could to answer both your explicit and implied questions in a way that (looked at objectively) is not at all aggressive.  And that may help you now, after having had time to adjust to the diagnosis, to understand yourself better.  It's a pretty unique opportunity to reconcile memory and emotion.

Assurbanipal
Title: Re: HIV in Saliva Transmission Risk
Post by: Assurbanipal on April 22, 2010, 08:46:26 am
Phoenius

Just as an observation, you seem to be conflating information about blood with information about saliva.

They are different. 

Sure, you can mix them, since they are both fluids.

But there is no evidence of transmission of HIV in saliva.

A
Title: Re: HIV in Saliva Transmission Risk
Post by: GSOgymrat on April 22, 2010, 09:00:00 am
I found that these forums are VERY biased because most who post here are HIV+.  ...

And I say again, no website of authority, not even this one, states its impossible to spread hiv through saliva.  And there's good reason for that.  Only the misguided people on these forums with their wishful opinions are telling people these false lies.   The word impossible should not be used.  "Very low risk" should be used along with explaining the factors that could make it possible, ie blood in the saliva and an open wound.   This isn't rocket science here.


Since you are presumably HIV+ I suppose your comments are biased as well.

I understand your problem with the word "impossible" being used but saying something is "very low risk" when there is no documented evidence that it has ever happened is equally inaccurate.
Title: Re: HIV in Saliva Transmission Risk
Post by: veritas on April 22, 2010, 09:24:19 am

Phoenius,

Although I believe your warning is meant well, I have to agree with those posting that saliva, in and of itself, is not a factor in hiv transmission. Your toothbrush analogy really refers to blood transmission rather than saliva transmission. A toothbrush is a good blood transmitter, thus the risk, as inferred by other posters. I believe if you follow the guidelines in the following link, you can put your fears to rest:

http://www.sfaf.org/aids101/transmission.html#

Aidsmeds is not the only sight that fosters this opinion. Also, the medical community has not found any such transmission  as others have stated (I've looked for such transmissions myself).

v
Title: Re: HIV in Saliva Transmission Risk
Post by: WillyWump on April 22, 2010, 11:30:35 am
Andy Velez who is running the forum of am I infected like a dictator is quite insensitive to guys who are panicking and seeking information , I hope he reconsiders his attitude with those young kids who are already scared .


WHAT? LOL! Andy is the least abrasive of the bunch over there (no offense to the others). Sounds like sour grapes are fermenting in you.

-Will
Title: Re: HIV in Saliva Transmission Risk
Post by: leese43 on April 22, 2010, 01:57:06 pm
I remember a year ago when I was passing through the same difficult time, Andy was very rude when answering my questions , he only made me more depressed and angry, a year passed and I cant get over it...


I don't think you remember at all, perhaps you should go back and read your thread in am i infected.
Title: Re: HIV in Saliva Transmission Risk
Post by: azprince on April 22, 2010, 03:05:17 pm
Ok, its my opinion and I respect all different opinions, my thoughts are that those who are still in the process of getting the information of being infected need extra care  in how to not turn their trauma into a worse one, most of them need huge amount of support in such a difficult time... and they need a careful way of addressing them, so that they feel they are welcomed to ask, and others are here to listen and show support! this si what this website is about , right ?
I might be wrong in my opinion , I have been wrong many times before, but still when I see newly diagnosed people, the first thing I say: I understand why are you scared! then I try to make their concerns seem ok and not stupid  :P
and one note for the guy who called those newly infected and freaking out with questions as nucklheads ....maybe you need to rethink about your comment ! because its so impolite and arrogant and honestly , it shows a great amount of ignorance or insensitivity  ..... reading few books from worldwide writers now and then will help  on your way to eat steak    ;D
Title: Re: HIV in Saliva Transmission Risk
Post by: azprince on April 22, 2010, 03:11:54 pm
AZ

I went back and read your initial thread in "Am I Infected?"  It's probably still very difficult for you to do that, because learning you have become infected is very traumatizing.  It wouldn't be surprising for you to have some emotional scars from that experience

But, if you can, I'd encourage you to reread it.  I think if you do so you  will see that Andy was doing what he could to answer both your explicit and implied questions in a way that (looked at objectively) is not at all aggressive.  And that may help you now, after having had time to adjust to the diagnosis, to understand yourself better.  It's a pretty unique opportunity to reconcile memory and emotion.

Assurbanipal

Thanks , and I understand that it has been long time, maybe I will re-read them one time, but I also exchanged PMs with Andy, and nothing of what I am saying is directed against him its generally speaking of the importance of being extra careful when dealing with newly traumatized people whether HIV+ or not, Andy is specialized in psychology as I read, and now from my education, I know this is the alphabet of helping others emotionally get over their traumas, to be very patient and understanding to why they are questioning what might seem to us, stupid questions !
Once again thanks for the comment and sorry if it sounded like a personal issue, its not !
Title: Re: HIV in Saliva Transmission Risk
Post by: Moffie65 on April 22, 2010, 03:26:00 pm
I just want to thank all of you who actually placed some time into your responses, and gave the science as the foundation of your answers.  Notably, jkinatl (Jonathan), Matty, and others I might have missed.  It is refreshing to see Jonathan back again and posting real science; as it has been very lacking here lately, and I am not good at finding it.  I have found that speaking with personal experience here lately is a total waste of time, because when I do it, I am lambasted with no "internet" references. 

Imagine that, I must now back up my personal experience of living with this shit for 27 years, with some website that doesn't even know me or my experience.  But sure enough, those that populate this place lately, surely don't want my experience at all anymore.  Yes, I find that so alarming, I just don't do it anymore.  Guess they really don't want to know the truth, like getting HIV from saliva is truly a myth.  Just doesn't happen, never ever.  Just isn't scientifically possible, and if so, everyone on the planet would have HIV by now. 
Title: Re: HIV in Saliva Transmission Risk
Post by: Dachshund on April 22, 2010, 03:37:53 pm
Ok, its my opinion and I respect all different opinions, my thoughts are that those who are still in the process of getting the information of being infected need extra care  in how to not turn their trauma into a worse one, most of them need huge amount of support in such a difficult time... and they need a careful way of addressing them, so that they feel they are welcomed to ask, and others are here to listen and show support! this si what this website is about , right ?
I might be wrong in my opinion , I have been wrong many times before, but still when I see newly diagnosed people, the first thing I say: I understand why are you scared! then I try to make their concerns seem ok and not stupid  :P
and one note for the guy who called those newly infected and freaking out with questions as nucklheads ....maybe you need to rethink about your comment ! because its so impolite and arrogant and honestly , it shows a great amount of ignorance or insensitivity  ..... reading few books from worldwide writers now and then will help  on your way to eat steak    ;D


I wasn't directing it towards the newly infected. Oh and Mr. Wordsmith, knucklehead is spelled with a k. ;)
Title: Re: HIV in Saliva Transmission Risk
Post by: skeebo1969 on April 22, 2010, 04:04:42 pm
Ok, its my opinion and I respect all different opinions, my thoughts are that those who are still in the process of getting the information of being infected need extra care  in how to not turn their trauma into a worse one, most of them need huge amount of support in such a difficult time... and they need a careful way of addressing them, so that they feel they are welcomed to ask, and others are here to listen and show support! this si what this website is about , right ?
I might be wrong in my opinion , I have been wrong many times before, but still when I see newly diagnosed people, the first thing I say: I understand why are you scared! then I try to make their concerns seem ok and not stupid  :P
and one note for the guy who called those newly infected and freaking out with questions as nucklheads ....maybe you need to rethink about your comment ! because its so impolite and arrogant and honestly , it shows a great amount of ignorance or insensitivity  ..... reading few books from worldwide writers now and then will help  on your way to eat steak    ;D

A lot of this could have easily been avoided by just wearing a condom....  but I guess that's Andy's fault as well..

Title: Re: HIV in Saliva Transmission Risk
Post by: azprince on April 22, 2010, 09:17:56 pm
No one asked you.
No one asked anyone actually, we share thoughts  :D
Title: Re: HIV in Saliva Transmission Risk
Post by: azprince on April 22, 2010, 09:19:35 pm

I wasn't directing it towards the newly infected. Oh and Mr. Wordsmith, knucklehead is spelled with a k. ;)
Thanks for correcting me, English is not my first language  ::)
Title: Re: HIV in Saliva Transmission Risk
Post by: Phoenius10 on April 22, 2010, 10:10:34 pm
Since you are presumably HIV+ I suppose your comments are biased as well.

I understand your problem with the word "impossible" being used but saying something is "very low risk" when there is no documented evidence that it has ever happened is equally inaccurate.

There has been documented cases.  Why is everyone ignoring the toothbrush case around here?

And yes I am biased.  I simply can't rule out that my infection didn't come saliva.  And to be responded by a "grumpy old man" that it is impossible, would piss anyone off especially when those statements don't appear on any other authoritative website.

Title: Re: HIV in Saliva Transmission Risk
Post by: Phoenius10 on April 22, 2010, 10:18:40 pm
Blood, saliva.. same thing when its comes from the mouth.  Do you know for certain that the person you are kissing, getting licked by, whatever doesn't have blood in their saliva??  You don't know that for sure.  So that is my point.  Telling someone who was asking a quesiton like this:  My bf used saliva is lube and gave me oral sex, and I have small cuts down there, do have I have transmission risk?  Telling this person it is impossible because it's impossible for saliva to transmit it is wrong.  What about the blood in saliva risk????  There was no mention of that.

Phoenius,

Although I believe your warning is meant well, I have to agree with those posting that saliva, in and of itself, is not a factor in hiv transmission. Your toothbrush analogy really refers to blood transmission rather than saliva transmission. A toothbrush is a good blood transmitter, thus the risk, as inferred by other posters. I believe if you follow the guidelines in the following link, you can put your fears to rest:

http://www.sfaf.org/aids101/transmission.html#

Aidsmeds is not the only sight that fosters this opinion. Also, the medical community has not found any such transmission  as others have stated (I've looked for such transmissions myself).

v
Title: Re: HIV in Saliva Transmission Risk
Post by: WillyWump on April 22, 2010, 10:30:12 pm
What case are you referring to?

I googled HIV Toothbrush and came up with this from Albany.edu

http://www.albany.edu/sph/AIDS/aids101_2.html

"There is one documented case of a child becoming HIV infected by sharing toothbrushes with parents who were both HIV infected. Transmission probably occurred from blood left on the toothbrushes. "

Who documented it? How did they go about it? Were there other unknown variables involved ie. child came in contact with parents blood or bodily fluid and had a cut at site of contact; Sexual abuse (heaven forbid).

I'd like to see something more on this case. IMHO there are too many unknown variables at play to deem it a case of "Toothbrush transmission". I think we would have much more incidents on people, specifically children aquiring HIV by toothbrushes if it were a problem. I'm sure there is more info availbale on this incident, but I cant find it and would like to see it. Perhaps you can provide the info on the case you are referring to.


-Will
Title: Re: HIV in Saliva Transmission Risk
Post by: Matty the Damned on April 22, 2010, 10:51:45 pm
There has been documented cases.  Why is everyone ignoring the toothbrush case around here?

And yes I am biased.  I simply can't rule out that my infection didn't come saliva.  And to be responded by a "grumpy old man" that it is impossible, would piss anyone off especially when those statements don't appear on any other authoritative website.

Wumpala has the goods when it comes to the toothbrush case.

As for this saliva/kissing bullshit, well JK has laid out the science for you. If that doesn't pass muster in your ivory tower, then nothing will.

As a wise woman once noted:

A person who claims to be infected from kissing or headjobs obviously can't tell his ass from a hole in his head.

MtD
Title: Re: HIV in Saliva Transmission Risk
Post by: skeebo1969 on April 22, 2010, 11:17:53 pm
Thanks for correcting me, English is not my first language  ::)

Well then, that's what your problem was last year when you mistakenly perceived Andy as being rude to you. 

See how we just helped you understand what your current problem is...

Blood, saliva.. same thing when its comes from the mouth.  Do you know for certain that the person you are kissing, getting licked by, whatever doesn't have blood in their saliva??  You don't know that for sure.  So that is my point.  Telling someone who was asking a quesiton like this:  My bf used saliva is lube and gave me oral sex, and I have small cuts down there, do have I have transmission risk?  Telling this person it is impossible because it's impossible for saliva to transmit it is wrong.  What about the blood in saliva risk????  There was no mention of that.


What kind of people are you bedding bro?  I've never been with someone who has blood in there mouth...  are you punching them or something before you kiss them? 
Title: Re: HIV in Saliva Transmission Risk
Post by: komnaes on April 22, 2010, 11:34:28 pm
..I simply can't rule out that my infection didn't come saliva..

So it means you also cannot rule out other routes of transmission in your case.

This whole blood in the mouth-mixed-with-saliva whatnot non-argument is only pushing you to a corner. If you're so convinced that you got it from saliva, and anyone else has any doubt about this "risk" is not scientific then it'd seem to me the most productive thing for you to do is to offer yourself as a case study. Find an institute, list all the evidences pointing out that all your past risks related ONLY to saliva and who knows, maybe you will be the first ever case of confirmed transmission of HIV through oral sex, someone HIV using his saliva to rub your dick, kissing while the other infected person was bleeding in his mouth, or whatever etc.

THEN come back and tell us the approach of this forum in AIM is not scientific.

I am sure by then you will be fully vindicated. But before then, may I respectfully suggest you to shut-the-f-up.
Title: Re: HIV in Saliva Transmission Risk
Post by: tednlou2 on April 22, 2010, 11:46:30 pm
Most people don't have blood in their saliva unless you've got a cut or bleeding gums or just had dental surgery.  If you had an open sore on your junk and someone was bleeding from the mouth all over you, then there is risk there.  If by chance someone got it that way, they got it from the blood and not saliva.   

Title: Re: HIV in Saliva Transmission Risk
Post by: Hellraiser on April 22, 2010, 11:51:00 pm
Most people don't have blood in their saliva unless you've got a cut or bleeding gums or just had dental surgery.  If you had an open sore on your junk and someone was bleeding from the mouth all over you, then there is risk there.  If by chance someone got it that way, they got it from the blood and not saliva.   



Also, trace amounts of blood wouldn't do it.  As skeebo pointed out, we're talking about full on gushing here.  Honestly though let's just let this thread die and move on.  You got a little irked that you aren't allowed to post in the "Am I" forum.  News Flash:  I agree with everything the people who post in there say and I'm not allowed to post in there either.  That forum serves a very specific purpose and to my knowledge no one who has ever been told "You were not at risk" ever came back from the same incident and said "BAM I tested positive from sitting next to someone who had bloody hiv in their saliva".

As for your own infection I want you to think long and hard about where else you could have been infected from, because I really don't think you were infected from receiving a blow(or)rimjob from anybody.  End of that day however even that doesn't matter because the end result is the same.  I'm poz, you're poz, we're all poz.  Let this thread die already for the love of christ (who has a phallus on his chest).
Title: Re: HIV in Saliva Transmission Risk
Post by: tednlou2 on April 23, 2010, 12:02:03 am
Also, trace amounts of blood wouldn't do it.  As skeebo pointed out, we're talking about full on gushing here.  Honestly though let's just let this thread die and move on.  You got a little irked that you aren't allowed to post in the "Am I" forum.  News Flash:  I agree with everything the people who post in there say and I'm not allowed to post in there either.  That forum serves a very specific purpose and to my knowledge no one who has ever been told "You were not at risk" ever came back from the same incident and said "BAM I tested positive from sitting next to someone who had bloody hiv in their saliva".

As for your own infection I want you to think long and hard about where else you could have been infected from, because I really don't think you were infected from receiving a blow(or)rimjob from anybody.  End of that day however even that doesn't matter because the end result is the same.  I'm poz, you're poz, we're all poz.  Let this thread die already for the love of christ (who has a phallus on his chest).

Are you saying this about me or Phoenius?  It made me confused.
Title: Re: HIV in Saliva Transmission Risk
Post by: Hellraiser on April 23, 2010, 12:16:26 am
Are you saying this about me or Phoenius?  It made me confused.

The other guy, sorry I'm a bit tired and as we all know when I'm tired hijinx ensue.
Title: Re: HIV in Saliva Transmission Risk
Post by: Bucko on April 23, 2010, 12:30:52 am
This thread needs some Crisco Disco (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hPK5zvLtl40&feature=related).
Title: Re: HIV in Saliva Transmission Risk
Post by: alliance on April 23, 2010, 12:57:18 am
beautiful thing . . .


just what the doctor ordered!
Title: Re: HIV in Saliva Transmission Risk
Post by: tednlou2 on April 23, 2010, 01:04:19 am
A Q&A from the body.com. 

Saliva as a barrier

Hello Ryan, I am a male who while under the influence of alcohol engaged, against my better judgement in a low risk encounter, I was given a blow job and was also rimmed. I've been going through some anxious moments over this encounter since I don't know the HIV status of the person involved. I will probably get tested just for the peace of mind I heard that saliva acts as a barrier against HIV. I can't seem to find any information on this topic. Do you think I'm at risk? and could you please shed some light on the saliva issue? Thank's Ryan.

 
 
 
  Response from Mr. Kull

It may not be completely accurate to describe saliva as a barrier to HIV. The most important thing to remember is that there is no evidence that saliva transmits HIV. This makes your risk for infection practically negligible.

The saliva of infected people contains little to no virus, and the virus that is found in saliva is often inactive (not infectious). Studies have found that a protein in saliva inactivates HIV (up to 90% of virus was inactivated in one test tube study) and other factors that may contribute to the noninfectious quality of saliva. This is why transmission through kissing or receiving oral sex doesn't seem to occur.

This does not mean that saliva will PROTECT you from infection. While the proteins in saliva may reduce the risk of transmission to a person performing oral sex (it may explain the low-risk nature of oral sex), saliva does not serve as a barrier to HIV transmission during oral sex. People can still be infected when performing oral sex, even though the risk is much lower than vaginal or anal sex.

RMK
 
Title: Re: HIV in Saliva Transmission Risk
Post by: skeebo1969 on April 23, 2010, 01:15:00 am


  Hey Ted there was a post at the Body about 5 years ago from a guy who said he was a drug dealer and got HIV from some female he screwed behind a 7-11.  He described the sex act(s) in great detail.  I can't find it, but thought you might be able to.  Can you give it a go?
Title: Re: HIV in Saliva Transmission Risk
Post by: jcelvis on April 23, 2010, 01:23:50 am
Blood, saliva.. same thing when its comes from the mouth.  Do you know for certain that the person you are kissing, getting licked by, whatever doesn't have blood in their saliva??  You don't know that for sure.  So that is my point.  Telling someone who was asking a quesiton like this:  My bf used saliva is lube and gave me oral sex, and I have small cuts down there, do have I have transmission risk?  Telling this person it is impossible because it's impossible for saliva to transmit it is wrong.  What about the blood in saliva risk????  There was no mention of that.


You've lost all creditably in your argument. No reasonable person would believe that saliva and blood are the same thing.  Your claim is you can get HIV from saliva, not saliva mixed with blood. We all know blood does transfer the virus. There can be blood in my snot that doesn't mean mucus transfers the aids virus.
Title: Re: HIV in Saliva Transmission Risk
Post by: tednlou2 on April 23, 2010, 02:20:07 am

  Hey Ted there was a post at the Body about 5 years ago from a guy who said he was a drug dealer and got HIV from some female he screwed behind a 7-11.  He described the sex act(s) in great detail.  I can't find it, but thought you might be able to.  Can you give it a go?

I'll try.  I do read that site as much as poz.com.  I'm curious now about all the detail.
Title: Re: HIV in Saliva Transmission Risk
Post by: tednlou2 on April 23, 2010, 02:58:40 am

  Hey Ted there was a post at the Body about 5 years ago from a guy who said he was a drug dealer and got HIV from some female he screwed behind a 7-11.  He described the sex act(s) in great detail.  I can't find it, but thought you might be able to.  Can you give it a go?

I'm going through the 2005 posts.  I haven't found the one you're talking about, but came across this question that is on topic.  I'll keep looking for yours.  Didn't mean yours---unless it was a question you posted...lol.

http://www.thebody.com/Forums/AIDS/SafeSex/Archive/TransmissionSexual/Q162654.html

Title: Re: HIV in Saliva Transmission Risk
Post by: RapidRod on April 23, 2010, 03:51:40 am
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysahd-Om4k8 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysahd-Om4k8)
Title: Re: HIV in Saliva Transmission Risk
Post by: jcelvis on April 23, 2010, 09:07:13 am
Blood, saliva.. same thing when its comes from the mouth.  Do you know for certain that the person you are kissing, getting licked by, whatever doesn't have blood in their saliva??  You don't know that for sure.  So that is my point.  Telling someone who was asking a quesiton like this:  My bf used saliva is lube and gave me oral sex, and I have small cuts down there, do have I have transmission risk?  Telling this person it is impossible because it's impossible for saliva to transmit it is wrong.  What about the blood in saliva risk????  There was no mention of that.


You're argument that blood and saliva are the same thing is like arguing that Candy Bars and Apples are the same because they both contain sugar.
Title: Re: HIV in Saliva Transmission Risk
Post by: skeebo1969 on April 23, 2010, 10:49:17 am
I'll try.  I do read that site as much as poz.com.  I'm curious now about all the detail.

Perhaps they deleted it, dunno though because they blocked my account soon after and I never went back.
Title: Re: HIV in Saliva Transmission Risk
Post by: Phoenius10 on April 23, 2010, 09:40:35 pm
Here's yet another documented case of HIV from kissing.. or "deep kissing" as they put it:

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00048364.htm

And it's on the CDC website too.  Yes, they just "assume" it was because of blood in the saliva.  But it just proves my point of why no doctor or website of authority will state that its impossible to get hiv from saliva.  We don't know if someone has bleeding gums, gingervitis, etc that would cause blood to get into salvia.  My mouth use to always bleed after brushing, eating, etc when i had a bad case of gingervitus, which only heightened my concern about it in the past.

So why all of you are sticking up to the "grumpy old men" who run this site making misleading statement about saliva, I don't know.  But whatever.  Think what you want.
Title: Re: HIV in Saliva Transmission Risk
Post by: skeebo1969 on April 23, 2010, 09:43:59 pm
So why all of you are sticking up to the "grumpy old men" who run this site making misleading statement about saliva, I don't know.  But whatever.  Think what you want.

because we done chased all the lil whipper snappers outta here.....  Next time you go to HD do yourself a favor and grab a handfull of the free condoms.
Title: Re: HIV in Saliva Transmission Risk
Post by: Matty the Damned on April 23, 2010, 09:57:04 pm
Here's yet another documented case of HIV from kissing.. or "deep kissing" as they put it:

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00048364.htm

And it's on the CDC website too.  Yes, they just "assume" it was because of blood in the saliva.  But it just proves my point of why no doctor or website of authority will state that its impossible to get hiv from saliva.  We don't know if someone has bleeding gums, gingervitis, etc that would cause blood to get into salvia.  My mouth use to always bleed after brushing, eating, etc when i had a bad case of gingervitus, which only heightened my concern about it in the past.

So why all of you are sticking up to the "grumpy old men" who run this site making misleading statement about saliva, I don't know.  But whatever.  Think what you want.

That is not a documented case. You must have over looked the word POSSIBLY in the title.

The title is the sentence at the top of the page.

MtD
Title: Re: HIV in Saliva Transmission Risk
Post by: skeebo1969 on April 23, 2010, 10:07:46 pm




  I was always told my name went at the top of the page.
Title: Re: HIV in Saliva Transmission Risk
Post by: Matty the Damned on April 23, 2010, 10:08:38 pm



  I was always told my name went at the top of the page.

Only on a rap sheet Skeeter. ;)

MtD
Title: Re: HIV in Saliva Transmission Risk
Post by: jkinatl2 on April 23, 2010, 10:12:16 pm
More to the point, that deep kissing issue was resolved a long time ago when critical scientists began to pick apart the couples' story as well as the researchers' methodology for gathering and analyzing data. Believe it or not, a single study, a single case, which contradicts all other evidence, is looked upon with great suspicion until more evidence, similarly gathered, comes to light. That is why I base my risk assessment not only on the Romero study, but the multiple Page-Shaeffer studies which followed.

In the case you mention, what was overlooked was that the couple was totally self-reporting their risk; were both in questionable recovery from IV drug addiction which included at least one relapse while the study was being conducted, would regularly A) inject in the gumline, thus severely eroding the tiissue and creating unique and substantial wounds, and B) could not say wth certainty that they never shared works.

In the meantime, this couple eventually admitted that they had had unprotected vaginal sex during the study. Whether or not this was done under the influence of IV drugs is irrelevant. That fact alone should have disqualified the study.

Sadly, the CDC has been a governmental entity for over a decade. And the hysteria over HIV transmission fueled a slew of reports which, under any other circumstances and given any other criteria, would never have been published. One by one, these erroneous reports are being refuted - either directly, or through intensive long-term epidemiological study in which patient report contamination is minimized.

It is my strong belief, based on the studies I have put forth, that this information is solid. To bring up one, refuted, sketchy case study to substantiate your claim is, at best, an incomplete rebuttal to my evidence.

Another poster mentioned that HIV science has changed a LOT in the last twenty years. And I agree. Fortunately for the human race, transmission science has closed FAR more doors as regards viable transmission methods than it has opened. You can thank much of that to HAART, which has allowed fifteen plus years of research into HEALTHY, sexually active HIV positive couples and individuals which was frankly not possible before.

On a personal note: You are newly infected. You have an agenda. I get that. You are not the first, nor the most strident. But inasmuch as I would like to participate in these forums with civility and dignity, asking us to rewrite the last fifteen years of concentrated study as regards HIV transmission in order to accommodate your desire to be an innocent victim is, IMHO, asking a little too much of this site. At best, it asks that we be hypocritical between the forums for Positive people, and the forums for the Negative Worried Well people who, no doubt read the other forums even if they are not allowed to post.

I am very sorry that you appear so angry, or frustrated, at this issue. I wish I could be of more help and support at this time. Perhaps later on, when the scientific method becomes extremely important in your determining medicinal choices, some of my research can be of assistance.

I will honestly never understand how some people readily accept huge portions of scientific theory, yet ignore or attempt to refute others.

Title: Re: HIV in Saliva Transmission Risk
Post by: skeebo1969 on April 23, 2010, 10:12:47 pm
Only on a rap sheet Skeeter. ;)

MtD

Can't believe you listen to that crap Matty, always figured you for something between classical and Black Sabbath.
Title: Re: HIV in Saliva Transmission Risk
Post by: jkinatl2 on April 23, 2010, 10:17:32 pm
So why all of you are sticking up to the "grumpy old men" who run this site making misleading statement about saliva, I don't know.  But whatever.  Think what you want.

In a world in which you can call Tim Horn a "Grumpy Old Man," we have ceased to function. The man is a trifecta of scientific knowledge, congenial personality, and butter-smearingly hot*.

Newt, as you might have noticed, shares these qualities. One does not have to be grumpy nor old to utilize critical thinking and the scientific method... or barring that, an aegis search and a rudimentary understanding of the politics behind scientific publication through the last decade or two.

*caveat - my personal information to the latter is five years plus old. But seriously.


Title: Re: HIV in Saliva Transmission Risk
Post by: Hellraiser on April 23, 2010, 11:41:52 pm
Also, some of us are grumpy young men tyvm.
Title: Re: HIV in Saliva Transmission Risk
Post by: aupointillimite on April 26, 2010, 12:17:49 am
Also, some of us are grumpy young men tyvm.

Guilty.

If someone could take a picture of himself at a computer with an earhorn and a cane with a caption that says "There's no AIDS in yer saliva, con sarnit!"  I would be forever in his debt. 

Thanks.
Title: Re: HIV in Saliva Transmission Risk
Post by: Hellraiser on April 26, 2010, 12:35:07 am
Guilty.

If someone could take a picture of himself at a computer with an earhorn and a cane with a caption that says "There's no AIDS in yer saliva, con sarnit!"  I would be forever in his debt. 

Thanks.

After basically every post I make where I'm chiding someone or disagreeing with them you can just imagine me shaking a cane at them from the rocker on my front porch.
Title: Re: HIV in Saliva Transmission Risk
Post by: PeteNYNJ on April 26, 2010, 02:28:44 am
Um  no  it doesn't happen.   If it was the case, everyone would be positive.  We come in contact with saliva tons. 

I think you just want to justify your own exposure on some kind of medical miracle.  You are SO much better than us because you did everything right but sill got the HIV.  Get over it.

Andy is the nicest guy on Earth.   Stay in that thread because we are dicks in this thread. 

Pete