Author Topic: Very confused! (Read 38758 times)

very worried! · « **on:** December 15, 2006, 12:19:33 pm »

Hi there. A while ago i deeply fingured a girl while she was on her period for about 20 mins max. She then gave me oral sex for about half a minute and i had a small sore on the side of my penis. The part that worries me the most is my penis rubbed against her vagina, she was naked but i had my underwear on but they are nylon so not very thick. I hadnt noticed she was on her period untill about 20 mins later when i went to the bathroom and notcied quite a lot of blood on my hands and also on my underwear where i was rubbing against her vagina for a couple of minutes. 2 months later before i knew about hiv symptoms i developd a dotted rash on my back, confimed swollen glands which was apparantly a viral infection, and mouth ulcers (about 5 in a week). My doctor advised against testing saying that hiv was only passed through actual sex and prodominantly anal sex (excuse me spelling) and there was no way i had it. After several visits to him he ordered a blood test to put my mind at rest. I took the blood test at 13 weeks and i believe it was the antibody test combined with p24 and i also had a full blood count as well as many others. All the results came back negative and he went through all my results saying that there was absolutly nothing wrong with me. I should say i dont no if she is hiv+ but she has a history of sleeping around (unprotected) because as she says (i am on the pill and i no everyone i have sex with!) I find it hard understanding that these symptoms all came at once after this event happened, the thing i am most worried about is the rubbing of my penis on her vagina even tho i had my underwear on my penis could of easily slipt out or blood could of got through and of course she was on her period, could you please tell me if its possible for hiv to be caught this way, (Afterall it is penis and vaginal contact!) Isnt that a risk? The oral sex and fingering i am not going to ask about as i no what the answer will be and i dont want to waiste your time! Many thanks,

RapidRod · « **Reply #1 on:** December 15, 2006, 12:24:44 pm »

You didn't have a risk and you reliably tested negative. You need to listen to your Dr.

Andy Velez · « **Reply #2 on:** December 15, 2006, 12:32:52 pm »

This is all about feelings and not anything based in HIV science.

You're HIV negative. Period. End of story.

(Re)read the lesson on transmission. There's a link to it in the opening Welcome thread in this section.

You have basis for further concern about HIV in relation to this incident, nor were you at risk to begin with.

I'm wondering if you're fairly inexperienced sexually and maybe this is reall about the not uncommon anxiety that comes about with becoming sexually active.

In any case, HIV is not an issue for you this time.

Just make sure you always use a condom for intercourse. No exceptions.

Cheers,

very worried! · « **Reply #3 on:** December 15, 2006, 12:44:46 pm »

Thank you for your very quick reply. I just have 1 more question to ask. I understand that the p24 test works from roughly 2 weeks after infection, but i tool it at 13 weeks. My question is would the p24 still test positive if i didnt have detectable antibodies or does it always test negative as soon as antibodies have developed even if they are undetectable? Many thanks,

RapidRod · « **Reply #4 on:** December 15, 2006, 12:50:20 pm »

A p24 test is good until the body begins to make antibodies then the antigen falls to an undectable level and they go off the ELISA test which is the second part of the DUO test. At thirteen weeks you results were found to be negative by the ELISA results.

very worried! · « **Reply #5 on:** December 15, 2006, 01:13:17 pm »

So are you saying as soon as the p24 falls to undetectable levels, the ELLISA test would be positive? I must ad that this girl has anemia and is on the verge of being diabetic and my doctor told me that as she has regular blood tests they would no indirectly that she has hiv as they would notice an abnormality in the blood and do further testing, can you comment on this? I have read the transmission lesson and i do understand how it is transmitted but my anxiety is getting the better of me and its the symptoms i cannot figure out. Have you ever heard of anyone having confirmed swollen glands and no other symptoms (no sore throat). I think the mouth ulcers i can put down to stress as i was extremly stressed out for 2 weeks. I just cannot figure out the rash it came for a couple of weeks and then just went, and all these symptoms came at the same time, as you can understand that is very scary. I would also like to say i think it is amazing what you do on this site, you all seem very experienced and after months of searching the internet and seeing a lot of rubbish, you are the only website that i trust to get dependable information. Many thanks,

RapidRod · « **Reply #6 on:** December 15, 2006, 01:19:51 pm »

You need to really find another doctor. The only test that will confirm hiv is an HIV test. No other tests will give a result on HIV. Symptoms mean nothing when it come to diagnosing HIV. HIV has no specific symptoms. I myself didn't have any symptoms when I seroconverted. Swollen lymph nodes can be cause by several things the biggest reason is caused by pushing and poking them. You need to go by your 13 week conclusive test. You are conclusively negative. No buts or what ifs, you're negative.

very worried! · « **Reply #7 on:** December 15, 2006, 02:40:47 pm »

My doctor didnt say they would no if she was hiv+ he said he tests people for anemia and diabetes and the range of tests which are used one of them is a test that is used for hiv (i am not sure which 1) baring this in mind they would see an abnormailty in the blood and investigate it further. So as soon as the p24 test becomes undetectable the ELLISA test would become positive right? Also, none of my symptoms developed untill 2 months after the incident would this mean that the ELLISA is more likely to be negative at 13 weeks or does it not matter when the symptoms develop because i heard that while someone is going through acute hiv they would most probably test negative. But my biggest concern is if the ELLISA would become positive as soon as the p24 is undetectable?

very worried! · « **Reply #8 on:** December 15, 2006, 03:07:04 pm »

I was poking my glands constantly so it is a bit ironic that they became swollen but saying that the swelling came on fast and painfull and stayed swollen for about a week but the pain went away. Doesnt that say its an infection? Well, my doc said it was a viral inection and it was a complete co-incedents that it happened at that time, could my swollen glands be due to extreeme stress because my immune system was low? I am finding this so hard to understand why i had a rash on my back, swollen glands and mouth ulcers all at the same time 2 months after the incedent. Its just really hard to accept i dont have it. I no symptoms are never a reliable indicator but the fact they were there to be seems very strange. Sorry, forgot to mention slight feevr. Many thanks,

Coffeechick88 · « **Reply #9 on:** December 15, 2006, 03:20:53 pm »

Your doctor cannot tell HIV status on anyone by routine labwork unless he/she routinely does an HIV test on everyone. Not even abnormalities will tell them if that person has HIV--abnormalities can be caused by a whole host of things. The p24 test is a test used for early detection of HIV, it has great specificity but not so great on sensitivity and only good for a short time. The ELISA would confrim the negative p24 test. So your tests are conclusive. The tests say you are negative and your non-risk says you are negative. You are HIV negative. End of story. As for your symptoms, as the other people told you you cannot go by that for HIV as HIV has no specific symptoms. There are such things as having non-HIV related conditions, you know. The other posters have told you why you are HIV negative. You need to move on and accept that fact. If you cannot, then it is time to see a mental health professional.

very worried! · « **Reply #10 on:** December 15, 2006, 06:22:22 pm »

So theoretically speaking it is possible that the p24 would be undetectable and there wasnt enough antybodies to be detected by the ELLISA, do you think this has ever happended, i just want to make sure that there is no time in between and if i should take another ELLISA just to be 100% sure? The 3-6 month theory really confuses me. Can someone tell me for sure what the truth is, does everyone have a reliable result after 3 months in terms of the detecteal antibodies and apart from people who are IV drug users and having chemotheropy etc..Or can some who have no other illness take longer? Many thanks,

Ann · « **Reply #11 on:** December 15, 2006, 06:55:01 pm »

very,

If a person has actually been infected, the p24 antigen is only detectable in the first few weeks after infection has taken place. Around the same time after enough antibodies have been produced to be detected on the tests, the p24 antigen begins to disappear. This is all explained in the Testing Lesson, linked to in the Welcome Thread which you should have read by now.

The six month window period is out of date. The current window period is three months. There is nothing to be confused about. Some websites carry outdated information; we do not.

You are hiv negative and it's hardly surprising that you are hiv negative as you never had a risk to begin with.

Ann

very worried! · « **Reply #12 on:** December 15, 2006, 06:58:58 pm »

Ok thank you very much ann, thats all i wanted to here. I also heard that during oral sex most of the virus is actually killed by saliva, do you no if there is any truth in this?

very worried! · « **Reply #13 on:** December 15, 2006, 07:05:58 pm »

I do understand that you cannot get infected through the things is did with this girl it's just the stress i have been going through with this is unreal and i have never been so obsessed with this in my life. So ann are you saying if someone for some reason did take 6 months to produce enough antibodies the p24 is more likely to be positive for longer than the usuall time? You are really helping me a lot here you obviously no what you are talking about and this really is the only website i feel i can trust. It is also the fact that on the internet you read a lot of stuff and it's very hard to no what the truth is on other websites, so you are filled with false information like it is possible that hiv can get through microscopic wounds around the fingernail! So you can see why i am so stressed out. And then the symptoms of ulcers, swollen glands, and a rash it's all lot to get over. Many thanks for your quick replies.

Ann · « **Reply #14 on:** December 15, 2006, 07:35:23 pm »

very,

What I am saying is that people don't take six months to seroconvert and test positive if they have indeed been infected.

The vast majority of people who have actually been infected will seroconvert and test positive by six WEEKS, with the average time to testing positive being only 22 days.

You say you understand that you were not at risk of hiv infection in what you did, yet you want me to understand why you are stressed out? I don't understand why you are stressed out. You didn't have a risk and you tested positive. You do not have hiv.

Use condoms for anal or vaginal intercourse and you will continue to avoid hiv infection. Now go stress out about something important like global warming or whether you're on Santa's naughty list or his nice list.

Ann

very worried! · « **Reply #15 on:** December 15, 2006, 07:47:40 pm »

Ann the reason i am stressed out is because it has taken me this long to believe i am actually negative but there is still that 0.1% un-centainty in my mind that i cant get rid off. The question i am really trying to ask is how long does it take from the time that the antibodies have started developing untill they are detectable and am i right in saying that as soon as the p24 becomes undetectable the ELLISA test will be posistve?

Ann · « **Reply #16 on:** December 15, 2006, 07:55:29 pm »

very,

There is NO uncertainty in your case. You did nothing that would lead to you becoming infected with hiv. You are not infected. You are hiv negative.

As for your specific question, I know of no study that held a stopwatch as the p24 antigen disappeared. And why would they?

You are hiv negative and if you continue experiencing a problem in letting this go, I suggest you seek counseling to get to the bottom of your anxiety. We cannot do that for you here.

Ann

very worried! · « **Reply #17 on:** December 15, 2006, 08:01:08 pm »

Ok thanks you so much ann i trust your word 100%. I am going to try and relax and forget the whole thing, and if i cant i will sekk counciling. Thanks agains for your help.

very worried! · « **Reply #18 on:** December 15, 2006, 08:51:34 pm »

Ann, sorry 1 more question. In the testing lesson is says that less that 1% of people take longer than 1 month or is that people who have other illnesses that are afftecting the antibody development? Many thanks,

Ann · « **Reply #19 on:** December 15, 2006, 08:55:20 pm »

very,

That only applies to people who are on chemotherapy for cancer, anti-rejection drugs following organ transplant, or people who have been injecting street drugs every day of every week for years.

What part of "you did not have a risk for hiv infection" don't you understand? All of these questions you're asking are irrelevant. Make sure you always use condoms for anal or vaginal intercourse and you won't ever need to worry about hiv window periods or seroconversion.

Ann

very worried! · « **Reply #20 on:** December 15, 2006, 08:56:52 pm »

ok, Thanks a lot ann you have answered all my questions.

very worried! · « **Reply #21 on:** December 16, 2006, 09:34:04 am »

I am circumsied and from about the age of 14 i have had some abnormailty on the side of my penis. It seems since i started masturbating it has caused some sort of friction on the side where the palm of my hand is rubbing the penis if you get what i am saying. Anyway, after a while it has caused what seems like another layer of skin, i cant really deecribe it, thats just seems like what it is. Like a bit of the foreskin has come back but only on the side. It can be quite embarrsaing sometimes although no girl had ever said anything to me but im sure they notice. Because of the rubbing it often causes sores around that area and quite often bleeds, in fact there always seems to be some sort of sore around it the whole time. I recieved oral sex off a girl and i no this is not a risk but the fact that this was there seems like it could be some sort of risk. I mean its very hard to describe but it certinlaly has been caused by friction and is just another layer of skin but it does cause damage to the penis and there are sort of wounds that are always there. I realise this is needs to be seen by a doctor and i am going to see one but im just wondering if you can give me any idea of what its and if its a risk as the girl tends to suffer from bleeding gums, although i'm not sure if they were visibally bleeding at the time. Sorry, forgot to mention it! Many thanks,

RapidRod · « **Reply #22 on:** December 16, 2006, 09:37:03 am »

Still no risk. Salvia inhibits HIV infection.

very worried! · « **Reply #23 on:** December 16, 2006, 09:43:25 am »

Ok thank you. Have you ever heard of anything like this before tho?

RapidRod · « **Reply #24 on:** December 16, 2006, 09:46:10 am »

Yes, I've heard of incomplete circumcisions. I've heard of guys fracturing their penis. I've heard of guys that have had the opening of their penis lower on the shaft. etc, etc....

very worried! · « **Reply #25 on:** December 16, 2006, 10:04:41 am »

ok thanks i am going to the doctor about it next week. You no you said saliva inhibits hiv..how is that possible if hiv is present in saliva, even tho the quantity is too low to infect but nether the less it is still there. Is that reason why it is in low ammounts..because the saliva kills it? Also, when you say you have heard of guys fracturing there penis, what do you mean by that? Many thanks for your quick responses,

Ann · « **Reply #26 on:** December 16, 2006, 10:07:44 am »

worried,

You didn't have a risk. Even if you DID actually have a risk, you would still be hiv negative. Your symptoms are being caused by something else. There ARE other illnesses in the world beside hiv, you know. Go see your doctor and find out what the problem is. Whatever it is, it isn't hiv because you are reliably hiv negative.

And it's time for you to move on with your life.

Ann

very worried! · « **Reply #27 on:** December 16, 2006, 11:28:25 am »

I do believe i need further educating on hiv is transmitted and i have read the lesson but 1 thing i just cant understand is why actuall sex can transmit it and why say for instance fingering cant. I understand hiv needs a warm enviroment to survive and once the penis is inside the anus or the vagina it can be transmited through tiny cuts on the penis. So, when you are fingering someone many people have little cuts on the fingers. What is the difference? I also no that the cells that hiv need to reproduce are under the foreskin but people have become infected by being poked with a needlestick in the thumb and the hand! Yes, i no that it is unlikely to happen but surely if:
A. A women is menastrating
B. You have a cut on your hand even if it is very small, but is bleeding
That is a risk?!
I dont no why i just find it very hard to believe that blood coming inyto contact with skin (that is very broken around fingernails) for a good 15 minutes and inside a vagina can't transmit hiv. I am sorry for all the questions i just feel the more i no about it the more i can accept i am negative. Many thanks,

very worried! · « **Reply #28 on:** December 16, 2006, 11:50:03 am »

someone?

RapidRod · « **Reply #29 on:** December 16, 2006, 12:20:33 pm »

Anyone who continues to post excessively, questioning a conclusive negative result or no-risk situation, will be subject to a four week Time Out (a temporary ban from the Forums). The purpose of a Time Out is to encourage you to seek the face-to-face help we cannot provide on this forum.

very worried! · « **Reply #30 on:** December 16, 2006, 02:51:57 pm »

i am aware that all you can do is tell me the facts however i am just trying to get more information on fingering which i cant get anywhere else. All i am trying to find out is how getting blood on a small cut or a sore around the fingernail in a warm envrimonet like (the vagina) cannot transmit hiv, it just really puzzles me. Is it a theoretical possiblity or is it actually no risk what so ever even if there is a tiny cut and the girl has her period at the time. What is scaring me is on a few websites i have seen that finernails often have invisible wounds around the edges, and there is 1 proven case where a doctor got infected from coming into contact with infected blood and did not wash her hands? thanks,

very worried! · « **Reply #31 on:** December 16, 2006, 03:44:23 pm »

Actually, i don't want to waiste your time anymore and i really dont want to be banned from this forum i am sorry. I just have 1 thing i want to ask you that will convinve me 100% that i do not have hiv and will make me forget the risks and symptoms etc. If someone was to come on this forum and say to you they had unprotected anal sex with someone who was hiv+ and then 2 months later came down with symptoms and had a negative DUO test at 13 weeks would you advise on further testing. I assure you this will be the last question and will honestly make me believe i am hiv negative. As i said it isnt the risk that i was particualy concerned about it was the symptoms, even tho the symptoms are not a reliable indicator i seemed to have all the symptoms that people with hiv have claimed to have. But anyway would really appreciate if you could just answer this question. Thanks a lot.

Ann · « **Reply #32 on:** December 16, 2006, 04:01:11 pm »

Quote

If someone was to come on this forum and say to you they had unprotected anal sex with someone who was hiv+ and then 2 months later came down with symptoms and had a negative DUO test at 13 weeks would you advise on further testing.

very,

NO, I would not recommend further testing in this situation. Three months is conclusive, no matter what the risk.

Ann

very worried! · « **Reply #33 on:** December 16, 2006, 04:08:00 pm »

ok, thank you very much for your help ann!

very worried! · « **Reply #34 on:** December 17, 2006, 12:29:52 pm »

my step-brother had unprotected vaginal sex with a girl who claims to be negative but as far as he no's she has never been tested. It is now 2 months and 1 week after it happened and he has tonsilitus. He is thinking of getting an hiv test but doesnt no if he should wait untill his symptoms have stopped? My step brother is a lot younger and i believe he is over reacting because i think it was the first time for both of them, but im not 100%. I think my worrying about what i thought was an exposure for me has triggered his worry. He does get tonsilitus about once a year so is not un-common but still..a risk is a risk. Can you please tell me if it is ok for him to get tested now and at the 3 month mark or should he wait a bit longer as his "symptoms" came about very late? Many thanks,

Coffeechick88 · « **Reply #35 on:** December 17, 2006, 12:42:52 pm »

No one should chase symptoms when it comes to HIV. The only thing that can be done is to get an HIV test. I do realize to some people when they've put themselves at risk, that suddenly a routine case of tonsilitis suddenly becomes blown out of proportion to "OMG what if this means I have HIV?" He should test at 3 months, since he did have unprotected sex. No one should ever assume the status of HIV about anyone. Unless you get tested with them together and really intimately know their history and both of you are monogamous with each other, always protect yourself as if that person has HIV and other STIs. He should also get a full STI panel done because she could have another STI--the other ones are all much easier to get than HIV. He could get tested now, but the 3 month test would be conclusive. It is more fruitful to wait until then instead of paying for 2 separate tests.

very worried! · « **Reply #36 on:** December 17, 2006, 01:05:25 pm »

ok, thank you very much. I now see what you mean when you say symptoms are never a reliable indicator, as i learnt myself. I will inform him to get tested at 3 months. If he was to get tested now tho and it was negative would that be 99% sure that he wasnt infected or will it mean nothing untill the 3 month mark? Mny thanks,

Coffeechick88 · « **Reply #37 on:** December 17, 2006, 05:58:23 pm »

The official figure at a definitive HIV test result is 3 months. He was possibly exposed 2 months 1 week ago. I do know that the majority of people that truely are positive will be positive by about 6 weeks and I do not know of any statistics of people that would change from negative to positive within 3 weeks. I think if he tested now, he would have a good idea what the result is, but just to make it definitive, that is why I would say 3 months. It is his choice whether to test both time, but considering it is only about 3 more weeks, it isn't that long to wait.

very worried! · « **Reply #38 on:** December 17, 2006, 07:55:41 pm »

So what about symptoms tho..am i right in saying that the timing of the symptoms is irrelivant as long as you take the test at 13 weeks? Because i don't no if there is any truth in this but i heard during acute hiv a person is quite likely to test negative regardless of if you are infected. I took a DUO test at 13 week,s is this advisable for my step brother?

Coffeechick88 · « **Reply #39 on:** December 18, 2006, 08:00:53 am »

Again: yes testing at 13 weeks is what shoudl be done. And again, symptoms are irrelevant--the only thing that matters is the test. Those that test negative are the ones who test too soon, ie if you were recently infected it might not show up, hence the 13 week test. that is definitive. HIV has no specific symptoms anyway--there are some that can be associated with it, yes, but they are definitely not specific and can fit a whole host of illnesses. It is not like a cold--you cannot tell by symptoms. In fact, often there are no symptoms. So to reiterate once again, your brother should be tested. Unlike you he actually has put himself at risk by having unprotected sex--he needs to test 13 weeks post exposure.

very worried! · « **Reply #40 on:** December 18, 2006, 09:52:44 am »

Ok thank you for your response.

very worried! · « **Reply #41 on:** December 18, 2006, 09:53:53 am »

Ok, thanks for your respone. He is getting tested at the 13th week mark! Many thanks.

very worried! · « **Reply #42 on:** December 19, 2006, 02:41:55 pm »

I wonder if you can help me. My doctor is refering me to a counciller but he is not back untill after the new year. I no i have had a 13th week negative test and you consider that conclusive but i have a couple of things i would like to say and ask. I mentioned in another post that i have an abnormailty on the side of my penis where what seems like another layer of skin has former. It was surely caused by masturbating (this is very embarrasing even to wirte on a forum but i used to wrap toilet paper around my penis to keep my hands clean if you no what i mean) anyway, was very stupid and that is what ultimatly has casued this layer of skin to form. It is in the same place as where my foreskin would be if i had one. It doesnt get any bigger or any smaller but what it does do is cause wounds and bleeding when i masturbate or when with a partner and we are participating in sexual activites. These wounds over the years have actually turned into little holes which you can see if you pull the skin out. I dont mean holes going into the penis i mean going straight through sort of like a peirecing, (all sounds very strange i no). Anyway i havnt seen a doctor about it after all these years but now after this "incident" it is starting to concern me because although i didnt see any visible bleeding on my penis i no there was surely a good few sores around the area which was caused from her masturbating me. So the fact that i received oral sex off her for about a couple of minutes and she "occasionally" suffers from bleeding gums does make me a little suspicious. I no that it has never happened from receiving oral sex but im thinking this could possible be an exception due to the circumstances. My question is:

a. If we just forget for a minute that i have been tested and she did have bleeding gums at the time would there be a "theoretical possiblity and would that possiblity depend on how sever the oral sex was because it was very light and more like licking then actual sucking (sorry for the details!)

b. Have you ever heard of anything like this on a penis. I find it very hard to describe, but if you could just imagine a normal penis but on the side where the forskin has been removed wrapping round it is another layer of skin, it is complety painless apart from when i masturbate and causes sore, and very occasinally actual bleeding. I do realsie you are not doctors but i just thought you might have some idea.

c. Even tho a 13th week test is considered conclusive say for example someone was to experience any sort of symptoms as 8 weeks lasted untill 11 weeks and a DUO test was taken at 13 weeks would that still be accurate. Why have i heard that someone who is experiencing acute hiv would most likely test negative at that time? It is something that is really bothering me and i am finding it extreemly difficult to get on with my life. It's lik everytime i think i can carry on i here something different, for instance my friend who recently got tested was told that 3 months is 99% certain but you should re-test at 6 months to be 100%!! Why do some people still say this if the officail window period is 3 months? Thank you very much for taking the time to read this, much appreciated.

Ann · « **Reply #43 on:** December 19, 2006, 03:07:02 pm »

very,

You have conclusively tested negative over a no risk event. Regardless of your masturbatory problems with your penis, you were not at risk for hiv from a blowjob.

Please re-read the Welcome thread and take note of the forum posting guidelines found there. You will notice that we give time outs to people who insist on continually posting about a no risk and/or conclusive negative results. Please consider yourself warned.

You do NOT have hiv.

Ann

very worried! · « **Reply #44 on:** December 20, 2006, 06:28:19 pm »

Can anyone give me an idea what the time is from developing antibodies to developing detectable antibodies. Thanks.

Ann · « **Reply #45 on:** December 20, 2006, 06:52:44 pm »

Very,

You have consistently ignored everything we have said to you, including the warning I gave you in my last post to you.

You have conclusively tested negative over a no-risk event. You do not have hiv.

I am giving you that time out I warned you about. Please use the time to seek out the face-to-face help you need to deal with your anxieties. We can't help you with that here.

Your time out is for 28 days. Do not create a new account to get around your time out because if you do, I will know and you will be permanently banned, no questions asked.

Ann

very worried! · « **Reply #46 on:** January 23, 2007, 07:23:58 pm »

VERY SORRY ABOUT STARTING A NEW THREAD! Hi, i hope you remember me, you gave me a timeout for a while and here i am again still worrying!
I feel like nobody actually understands me and i also feel like a am worrying for a reason. I have never felt like this ever and it is really getting to me. Im not gonna go into the symptoms that i have expericenced (although i do have to ask if a dotted rash on the back of the hands could be a symptom?) Anyway, i forgot to mention to you that as well as the ELISA and p24 test that i did at 13 weeks i also had a white blood cell count. The doctor said that my wbc in his words was (boringly normal). He said that if that was acute hiv i was experiencing it would be different. The thing that shocked me was when he said that people who have high risk exposures such as un-protected anal with someone known to be hiv+ and people who prick themelves with needles test out to 6 months. I no that my exposure (receiving oral and fingering whilst girl was on her period) in your view is no risk, but i went to see a different doctor and he told me it was an extremely low risk which confuses me. The first doctor that i went to which is my usual doctor told me that actual sex is required and receiving oral is purely a theoretical risk. I feel like everytime i think i am getting somewhere with this there is always something pulling me back. I have also red in your poz forums of 1 person taking longer than 3 months to produce antibodies and another person on there that expericned acute hiv for 10 months! Is this possible? I am sorry for the long message, the bottom line is my doctor said i should go and get another test at the 6 months mark just to put my mind at rest but he did say he defiantly does not reccomend it..im just so confused. Luckily, he is a very good doctor and he himself does hiv testing. So why do they test people at 6 months. He told me 3 months is 99.999% sure at 6 months is 110% sure. The fact is i no realisticly any sexual activity cannot be 100% safe and the fact that i had an abrasion on my penis at the time kind of makes me put 2 and 2 together. One more thing..im very sory about this, i dont want to keep waisting your time so i thought i would put it in one message and leave you alone because im sure you are sick of people like me. Anyway i had a throat infection one month after but it was a different kind. There was NO pain when swollowng and it just felt like an irritaiton in my throat. A few weeks before that however i had a chest infection. Do you think it is likely that it could be connected in some way? I no hiv has no specific symptoms but generally what kind of a sore throat do people tend to expericene with acute hiv..i heard it was pain when swollowing is this true? I have had all my symptoms answered for apart from this one so it would really help if you could give me some info. Many thanks for reading, this site gave me confidence to get tested in the first place and i am just looking for a bit more. Many thanks.

RapidRod · « **Reply #47 on:** January 23, 2007, 07:26:17 pm »

You are really wanting to get banned from this forum. You are HIV negative now move on don't post anything further.

very worried! · « **Reply #48 on:** January 23, 2007, 07:30:49 pm »

I am simply trying to get some more info about why my doc said that to me. I promise you if you just answer these questions i will not post any further and you can ban me although i would not like to be banned since you have been very helpful.

What kind of a bad throat is GENERALY seen with acute hiv.
And why do people with high risk exposures test out to 6 months.

I am getting tested next month but answering these questions will help ease my anxiety until i get it.

very worried! · « **Reply #49 on:** January 23, 2007, 07:55:49 pm »

I am a genuienly worried person, and have been for the last 5 months of my life. Some people like youselves say receiving oral sex and hand to blood contact is no risk and some people say extreemly low. Some people say testing at 3 months is 100% and some people say 6 months. Do you see what i am getting at. I am not a stupid person and i am normally quite a realistic person. I am not here for emotional support..if i have it i have it and if i dont i dont. BUT I NEED TO NO. First my doc said its 100% then he says 6 months is 100%. How can you say receiving oral sex is NO risk when really no sexual activity is no risk. You say that there has been a handful of cases reported through GIVING oral sex and yet there is someone on this forum who claims to have got it through that. I am not for 1 second dispusting anything you say but i am just trying to get a greater understanding. It is a fact that people with high risk exposures get tested at 6 months. The docs are saying to me that i wasnt at high risk but surely a risk is a risk regardless. I cannot seem to get any real info from anyone which i why i came back here. I admire the work you do here it is truely amazing. I do not want to get blocked i just wish to have my questions answered and then i shall leave..Many thanks.

ACinKC · « **Reply #50 on:** January 24, 2007, 09:56:53 am »

So wait one more month and test for your own piece of mind. Thats what it comes down to doesnt it, your own sanity. You are ONE month away from a 6 month test. You cannot change anything between now and then so just wait it out.

In my opinion you had no risk. Let me ask you, will you be 100% satisfied if in one month you test negative again?

very worried! · « **Reply #51 on:** January 24, 2007, 11:37:56 am »

Well if i am being truely honest i told myself before the 3 months test that i would let this whole thing go if i was negative. 1 day later and i found out about the 6 months window period. I do honestly think tho..in fact im 100% sure that a 6 month test would in my mind be conclusive. Can i ask you a question tho..The white blood cell count. Is my doctor right in saying that if that was acute hiv i was experiencing it would be abnormal or low? Many thanks

ACinKC · « **Reply #52 on:** January 24, 2007, 11:41:20 am »

Does it matter? One month till test time. What can you personally do to change the results within that one month time frame you have left? Answer: Nothing, if its there it's there, if its not its not. worrying about your white blood cells will not change that fact.

very worried! · « **Reply #53 on:** January 27, 2007, 04:27:08 pm »

Hi again.

If a person was experiencing acute hiv would they have a high white blood count or a low white blood count and also after acute hiv does your blood count stay different or would it return to normal.

Many thanks.

RapidRod · « **Reply #54 on:** January 27, 2007, 06:37:05 pm »

Most of the time you WBC and CBC stays within normal limits.

very worried! · « **Reply #55 on:** January 27, 2007, 06:47:47 pm »

Would you advise on me changing doctor as he told me that my wbc would be either high or low i cant remember which if indeed i was experiencing acute hiv..?

very worried! · « **Reply #56 on:** January 27, 2007, 07:06:38 pm »

i dont no if this makes a difference but he said i had all the blood tests to see if there were any abnormality's in my blood including full blood count etc just to proove that there was nothing wrong with me. When i recievied my negative results and he said that my wbc was in his words "boringly normal" i felt a lot better until i saw on other websites that testing at 6 months is 100%. When i said this to my doctor he told me exactly the same as to what you have told me and then on another visit he told me 6 months to be 110% and they test people with needle pricks out to 6 months but he still did not reccomend it. Any advise that i can get now from you guys is extremely helpful would you reccomend a final test at 6 month mark just to put an end to this?

RapidRod · « **Reply #57 on:** January 27, 2007, 08:06:49 pm »

No, you don't need further testing.

Andy Velez · « **Reply #58 on:** February 03, 2007, 08:47:23 am »

Here's your old thread. Keep your entries here. I have deleted the other new thread you just started before anyone responds there.

Re-enter your latest question here.

very worried! · « **Reply #59 on:** February 03, 2007, 10:40:30 am »

ok, im sorry about that.

I decided to take another ELISA test at the 6 month mark as i learned that 95% will be poz by 3 months and everyone will be poz by 6 months. I knew it was the only thing that was going to ease my anxiety. It was negative. However, i then realised that i took it 7 days short of the 6 month mark!! I find my anxiety creaping back. My question is would a negative test change in 7 days or do they just say 6 months because it makes more sence then saying 5 months and 3 weeks?! Many thanks.

RapidRod · « **Reply #60 on:** February 03, 2007, 10:43:04 am »

Seek out the help of a mental health professional for your worries. There is nothing else we can do for you on this forum. You are conclusively NEGATIVE.

very worried! · « **Reply #61 on:** February 03, 2007, 10:59:25 am »

i did see someone but she didnt help because she refused to talk about anything to do with hiv all she was doing was talking about general life but theres nothing else wrong with me so i stopped going. Thats when i went back to my doc who said to me i dont need another test and i never did need to test. But he also said when i asked him that statiscally 95% will be poz by 3 months so for my own self of mind i had to get another test..there was nobody who could tell me otherwise. But for me this is a very important question that i need answered and i would really appreciate a real genuine answer. If the answer is yes 5 months and 3 weeks could change in the final weel i will get another test if its no then i can accept that but i really do need to no. Many thanks

RapidRod · « **Reply #62 on:** February 03, 2007, 11:18:00 am »

What part don't you understand? If you would have had a risk, 13 weeks is conclusive, not, 14,15,16 weeks. 13 weeks is conclusive. NOT 6 MONTHS. You are conclusive, end of subject. Move on.

Andy Velez · « **Reply #63 on:** February 03, 2007, 11:18:10 am »

A test result at 13 weeks is 99.9% accurate. And I really don't want to get into a comparison of statistical sources about that, so don't bother.

The difference of a few days would make absolutely no difference in the reliability of your test result at 6 months.

As for your experience with a therapist, I will only say that if she wanted to discuss other matters than HIV that isn't surprising. You maybe obsessing about HIV but in my experience that is often a cover for other issues. Of course, she's not the only therapist in the world. I suggest considering getting to someone else who can help you with the emotional aspects of whatever is going on.

You are HIV negative. HIV is not the issue. I don't know if you are willing to accept that.

We've done whatever we can do for you here. Consider yourself warned. If you persist with this you're going to get banned.

very worried! · « **Reply #64 on:** February 03, 2007, 11:27:20 am »

ok im sorry i really am..i dunno what im gonna do but i will stop posting on this site.

Thank you for your help..i really mean that.

very worried! · « **Reply #65 on:** February 05, 2007, 03:15:26 pm »

Hello again.

Andy,

You told me that you beleive that in many cases you have seen hiv as a cover to other things that are going on in peoples lives. I believe this may be true in my case as i have many issues going on that i should have sorted out years ago. Fact is i accepted that most of my "symptoms" such as ulcers came on when i knew or what i thought acute hiv symptoms were. I accept that was way to ironic to be hiv. The thing that is holding me back is that i very very rarely get ill, i maybe get the odd cold now and again. However, when i returned from holiday i had a throat infection and a very mild rash on my back that i noticed way before i even knew about acute hiv. THIS IS WHAT IS HOLDING ME BACK. I cant get on with my life until i have these "symptoms" justified. I no you are not a doctor but do you think it is possible that my throat infection was due to the sudden weather change since i was in a very hot country drinking and smoking and then returned to freezing cold? My throat infection was a different kind also. It didnt hurt to swallow or ear or anything and it only mainly was irritating at night. Has anyone experienced this before? I can aslo see my anxiety creaping back after i realised i took my 6 month test 1 weeks early. Andy or Ann, are you absolutly certain that 1 weel would not make a difference in producing detectable antibodies? Like i said before..it is the not knowing that is holding me back as i keep on getting told different infromation by different people. Thank you for reading.

ACinKC · « **Reply #66 on:** February 05, 2007, 03:24:21 pm »

I do not know why you are focused on HIV.

Gingivostomatitis
Kawasaki disease
Leukemia
Lupus
Syphilis
Tuberculosis

Are just a FEW of the diseases you could have that symptoms are related to yours. Start focusing on what you DONT have. HIV is something you DONT have. Now go rule out the other just as serious diseases. Your throat infection could be a thousand different things all by itself.

You didnt have a risk. Go talk to the Dr.

Edited to add your 12 week test is conclusively reliable to you! You didnt have a risk anyway.

Ann · « **Reply #67 on:** February 05, 2007, 03:30:21 pm »

very,

Enough is enough.

You didn't have a risk.

You tested conclusively hiv negative.

You don't have hiv.

I'm giving you a second time out, this time for eight weeks, which is 56 days. Use this time to get yourself into counseling, if you cannot bring yourself to accept your no-risk, conclusive-negative situation.

Ann

confused.123 · « **Reply #68 on:** July 09, 2009, 06:48:38 pm »

Hi there. Before i begin i would just like to say that this website seems like the most reliable source of information that i have found after browsing the internet for weeks. Its amazing that you take the time out of your lives to help worriers like myself.

Anyway, let me begin. I had a few risky encounters with a girl who is actually a friend of mine. We engaged in many sexual acts and then very stupidly began to have unprotected vaginal sex. The sex only lasted a couple of minutes and it was sort of on off until we both realized how silly we were being. I have never done anything like this before. After she had gone home i started asking her many questions about her sexual history and she assured me that she was OK. However, i must of freaked her out because a day later she went to get tested. Wherever she went they obviously didn't tell her much information because she wasn't aware of the window period for HIV. To cut a long story short she told me she was negative. I knew i still had to test because you can never rely on what people tell you. My main concern was if i caught something then i could pass it on to somebody else and wasn't just a fear of the virus. My doctor told me i had a very low risk for such a short period of unprotected sex but if i would like to test he would do it for me. He told me to wait 3 months to be sure. When i questioned him on the window period he told me the tests for HIV are very sensitive and at 3 months you can be sure. However, when i questioned him further he did admit that in the healthcare setting they still test out to 6 months. I finally built up the courage to get tested 5 months post exposure. It was negative. My question to you is, why for instance on the cdc website amongst many, many other websites do they say it can take up to 6 months? Why do they still test out to 6 months in the healthcare setting? Why do they still say its 97% who are positive by 3 months but to be sure you must test out to 6 and many STD clinics still test out to 6 months? I am asking these questions not because i am sitting here going mad in fear but more so i can be confident that i am truly negative and am safe to continue on with my sex life without the worry of my past experience. Many thanks for reading this, look forward to hearing from you.

By the way, the tests i took were ELISA and p24. Both negative.

RapidRod · « **Reply #69 on:** July 09, 2009, 07:49:51 pm »

3 months is conclusive.

confused.123 · « **Reply #70 on:** July 10, 2009, 06:58:51 am »

I would appreciate it if you could explain why some people still insist on a 6 month window period. I have been told that its 97% at 3 months and everyone by 6 months?

RapidRod · « **Reply #71 on:** July 10, 2009, 07:31:10 am »

They don't and haven't since 2004.

Anyone who continues to post excessively, questioning a conclusive negative result or no-risk situation, will be subject to a four week Time Out (a temporary ban from the Forums). If you continue to post excessively after one Time Out, you may be given a second Time Out which will last eight weeks. There is no third Time Out - it is a permanent ban. The purpose of a Time Out is to encourage you to seek the face-to-face help we cannot provide on this forum.

confused.123 · « **Reply #72 on:** July 10, 2009, 07:45:41 am »

I haven't really been posting excessively i am just trying to find out something about the window period which is bothering me. I had unprotected vaginal sex with a women and tested negative 5 months post exposure. Like i said i am not sitting here driving myself mad over possible symptoms or anything like that i just want to find out why you are so sure of a 3 month conclusive test when there are still many people out there who say 6 months is conclusive plus in the healthcare setting they still test out to 6 months. If somebody could answer my question i would really appreciate it. Many thanks.

RapidRod · « **Reply #73 on:** July 10, 2009, 07:47:55 am »

Look at the first reply you were given and move on.

confused.123 · « **Reply #74 on:** July 10, 2009, 08:18:55 am »

I'm sorry i am not trying to annoy you in any way but i am just trying to find out why some people still insist on saying 6 months if you want to be 100% sure?

RapidRod · « **Reply #75 on:** July 10, 2009, 08:25:33 am »

Ignorance ...

Andy Velez · « **Reply #76 on:** July 10, 2009, 09:43:56 am »

With the increased sensitivity of all generations of tests, the CDC has for sometime recommended 3 months for testing for a reliable result.

The exceptions for testing out to 6 months are when extensive IV drug use is involved, a severely compromised immune system due to organ transplant or a severe illness such as cancer.

Otherwise 3 months is sufficient and reliable. Period.

confused.123 · « **Reply #77 on:** July 10, 2009, 09:47:16 am »

How long after a possible exposure should I wait to get tested for HIV?

Most HIV tests are antibody tests that measure the antibodies your body makes against HIV. It can take some time for the immune system to produce enough antibodies for the antibody test to detect, and this time period can vary from person to person. This time period is commonly referred to as the “window period.” Most people will develop detectable antibodies within 2 to 8 weeks (the average is 25 days). Even so, there is a chance that some individuals will take longer to develop detectable antibodies. Therefore, if the initial negative HIV test was conducted within the first 3 months after possible exposure, repeat testing should be considered >3 months after the exposure occurred to account for the possibility of a false-negative result. Ninety-seven percent of persons will develop antibodies in the first 3 months following the time of their infection. In very rare cases, it can take up to 6 months to develop antibodies to HIV.

This was updated in 2007 from the cdc. I am not doubting for one second what anyone here tells me about the window period i am just confused as to how they come up with 97% by 3 months and also why they continue to test out to 6 months in the healthcare setting?

RapidRod · « **Reply #78 on:** July 10, 2009, 10:29:29 am »

http://www.cdc.gov/nchstp/od/gap/pmtct/Trainer%20Manual/Adobe/Module_6TM.pdf

Page 11
Number 4

MOVE ON.

Andy Velez · « **Reply #79 on:** July 10, 2009, 10:43:34 am »

We've answered your question. You don't seem to be listening. Instead you are just coming up with more "yah, but" responses.

You don't have to believe what we say although you've been given totally accurate responses. You aren't going to hear anything different from us now. But I can tell you that if you keep coming back with more of your doubts, you are going to earn yourself a 28 day time out here in short order.

You are HIV negative. Get on with your life.

confused.123 · « **Reply #80 on:** July 12, 2009, 09:15:27 pm »

I appreciate all your replies. Can i ask, has the window period changed to 3 months because of the tests being more sensitive or have they just realized that it doesn't take that long in almost everyone?

RapidRod · « **Reply #81 on:** July 12, 2009, 09:27:09 pm »

Better tests.

Ann · « **Reply #82 on:** July 13, 2009, 07:37:51 am »

con,

It's a combination of the two. Most people will seroconvert and test positive - even on older tests - by six weeks, with the average time to seroconversion being only 22 days. The window exists at three months to catch the rare person who take a little longer than six weeks. Combine the better tests with a couple decades of testing experience, and we know three months is enough.

You don't have hiv. Use condoms for anal or vaginal intercourse from now on, correctly and consistently, and you will continue to avoid hiv infection. It really is that simple.

Ann

confused.123 · « **Reply #83 on:** July 13, 2009, 07:46:40 am »

Thank you very much.

confused.123 · « **Reply #84 on:** July 15, 2009, 06:18:49 pm »

Hi again,

Im sorry to keep on posting i just cant seem to get my head around this window period. Everywhere i look on the internet says 3 months is normal for the most of the population and it is rare for somebody to take up to 6 months to develop detectable antibodies yet at the same time if you look at one of Dr Becky Kuhns videos for instance she says 6 months is the window period. Its just very confusing because there are so many mixed opinions everywhere. I can accept that 3 months is normal for most people but i want to be 100% sure that i am negative so i can be confident of being with other sexual partners.

anniebc · « **Reply #85 on:** July 15, 2009, 07:01:17 pm »

We don't know what else to tell you, you are not listening to the advise and information you have been given by the experts here..please read this, remember it and MOVE ON.

"Only a small group of people seroconvert after the 13 week window period, this group includes those who are receiving immuno-suppressive therapy after transplant procedures, cancer patients who are receiving chemotherapy and long term injecting drug users".

One more post about this and you will be given a Time Out....please consider this a warning.

Jan

confused.123 · « **Reply #86 on:** July 16, 2009, 02:05:29 pm »

I am taking on board everything you are saying and i really do not want a time out. But the thing is when i look at the CDC official website, yes, they do say 12 weeks is normal for most of the population. But they also say 97% of people will seroconvert by 12 weeks. So where do they get this information and why don't they change it to a more accurate statement? After all, a lot of people who are worried about HIV infection will turn to the CDC for valuable advice and when they say 97% by 12 weeks people are still going to worry, don't you agree? Like i said before, i am not coming on here worrying needlessly about possible symptoms or asking loads of different questions, i just want to be sure that i really am HIV negative so i can continue with my life with that peace of mind.

RapidRod · « **Reply #87 on:** July 16, 2009, 02:09:20 pm »

CDC uses 3 months. No I don't agree because most people understand after they have been told ONCE.

Ann · « **Reply #88 on:** July 16, 2009, 02:19:49 pm »

Confused,

You tested negative at five months past your unprotected incident. YOU DO NOT HAVE HIV!!! You can test out to six months if you like, but your result is not going to change.

You will NOT be permitted to use this website to fret over your hiv status and the outdated six month window. YOU DO NOT HAVE HIV!!!

Keep posting over this conclusive result and you'll be given a time out.

Please consider yourself warned for the last time!

Ann

confused.123 · « **Reply #89 on:** July 21, 2009, 12:07:37 pm »

I just read the uk hiv testing guidelines updated in 2008 and it states that 3 months is conclusive so i guess you were right. A lot of people seem very confident in the 3 month window period and i guess i ought to start believing people. Its just so hard when there is a lot of other information out there on the internet.

confused.123 · « **Reply #90 on:** July 22, 2009, 10:58:05 am »

Can i just ask a quick question about the p24 test. Why is it only accurate after a few weeks. I mean, if somebody didn't seroconvert until 8 weeks then would the p24 work at 7 weeks?

Ann · « **Reply #91 on:** July 22, 2009, 11:10:55 am »

Con,

The p24 antigen is only present in the very beginning of infection. It's not going to be around at week seven, because as you have been repeatedly told, most people seroconvert and test positive WAY before then. Even if there aren't enough antibodies present to detect by week three or so when the p24 disappears, it still disappears.

You are obviously still obsessing about and doubting your CONCLUSIVE negative result, so I'm giving you that time out you've been repeatedly warned about. Please use this time to seek professional counseling so you can get to the bottom of this obsession. Do not attempt to create a new account to get around your time out because if you do, you will be permanently banned.

YOU DO NOT HAVE HIV!

Ann

Andy Velez · « **Reply #92 on:** July 22, 2009, 11:14:03 am »

No. The P24 is only useful during a short period of time at approximately 1-3 weeks after infection has taken place. Levels of P24 antigen increase significantly during that time and BEFORE HIV antibodies are produced. About 2-8 weeks after exposure, antibodies to HIV are produced and remain detectable in response to the infection, making the HIV antibody test the most useful means of diagnosing HIV status.

However, this test is not ordered as frequently as it once was since tests that can detect HIV RNA early in infections (HIV viral load) have become more widely available. Tests for HIV antibody continue to be the most commonly used for determining HIV status.

With an P24, a negative result may mean that you are not infected with HIV or that the level of p24 is below the detectable limits of the test. In situations where there has been the possibility of exposure to HIV, screening with a different test, such as the HIV antibody test, is recommended.

very worried! · « **Reply #93 on:** August 20, 2009, 05:59:57 am »

Hi again.

Just to let you no i am thinking of testing in 3 months following a couple more possible exposures even tho you may tell me that i was not at risk but for my state of mind i no i will have to test.

I was with a girl a few weeks ago who wanted to have unprotected sex. I insisted that we go out and buy some condoms and that is exactly what we did. However, i don't no if this is possible but i pulled out because we both agreed that something didn't feel right. I have a feeling i put the condom on the wrong way but i don't no if this is possible!? When i felt the top of the condom the flappy bit seemed to be very small which worried me. However, i am sure the condom did not break because i made a point of checking. What worried me even more is that i noticed i had some blood on my groin area and around my hands. It was very strange because she wasn't actually on her period. We continued to have sex with different condoms and all of it was protected with no breaks but i spotted blood on the condom.

The other situation happened a few days ago. I received oral sex from a girl. However during the oral sex i felt her teeth really digging into my penis and when i looked after i saw a couple of saws. I no you guys don't see oral sex as a risk but this is a slightly different situation. What are your views?

Thanks for reading.

RapidRod · « **Reply #94 on:** August 20, 2009, 06:08:36 am »

very worried!, DO NOT POST IN ANY OTHER THREAD THAN YOUR OWN.

very worried! · « **Reply #95 on:** August 20, 2009, 06:18:06 am »

This is my thread...

very worried! · « **Reply #96 on:** August 20, 2009, 06:19:51 am »

I have a different username because i forgot my password..

RapidRod · « **Reply #97 on:** August 20, 2009, 06:22:38 am »

Anyone who continues to post excessively, questioning a conclusive negative result or no-risk situation, will be subject to a four week Time Out (a temporary ban from the Forums). If you continue to post excessively after one Time Out, you may be given a second Time Out which will last eight weeks. There is no third Time Out - it is a permanent ban. The purpose of a Time Out is to encourage you to seek the face-to-face help we cannot provide on this forum.

very worried! · « **Reply #98 on:** August 20, 2009, 06:53:40 am »

But all i was doing was asking you a question about an encounter which has worried me. This is a different encounter to the one where i have already tested negative. I don't see the problem with that, i thought thats what this forum is for?

RapidRod · « **Reply #99 on:** August 20, 2009, 06:56:38 am »

You can''t put a condom on wrong and you don't need to come here and post everytime you go have a sexual experience.

very worried! · « **Reply #100 on:** August 20, 2009, 07:30:31 am »

I no i don't have to come here every time i have a sexual experience. Its just anytime i feel i have done something remotely dodgy i feel like i could be putting my next sexual partner at risk. Can it happen sometimes that the condom just doesn't feel right because that is what happened then and the sight of blood was what really worried me.

Ann · « **Reply #101 on:** August 20, 2009, 08:04:39 am »

Quote from: very worried! on August 20, 2009, 06:19:51 am

I have a different username because i forgot my password..

JP,

When you forget your password, you're supposed to either click on the "forgot password" link on the main log-in page, or contact us. You are NOT supposed to create a new account as this is very strictly against our forum rules. You've been coming here since 2006 and there's no reason for you to not know our rules.

You've already been given two time outs as "very worried!" and I think you created a new account to avoid being given a third and permanent time out. You only came off a time out as "confused.123" today. You've used up your chances on this forum in more than one way.

You are now permanently banned for your blatent disregard of not only our forum rules, but also of what you're supposed to be here learning.

Bye!

Ann

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