Precious - negative stereotypes for whites, or moving period picture?

[mecch]

We used to argue this topic in film classes all the time.   What do you think?  Topic comes up for gay characters in movies and tv as well.    Finally I think Reed has a good point and the film falls into the cheesey offensive "dangerous minds" mode too often.  Still I liked the performances and the story and can deal with the stereotypes as not representing a population or a time, just these characters.
 

Fade to White

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/05/opinion/05reed.html?em

Op-Ed Contributor
Fade to White
By ISHMAEL REED

Oakland, Calif.

JUDGING from the mail I’ve received, the conversations I’ve had and all that I’ve read, the responses to “Precious: Based on the Novel ‘Push’ by Sapphire” fall largely along racial lines.

Among black men and women, there is widespread revulsion and anger over the Oscar-nominated film about an illiterate, obese black teenager who has two children by her father. The author Jill Nelson wrote: “I don’t eat at the table of self-hatred, inferiority or victimization. I haven’t bought into notions of rampant black pathology or embraced the overwrought, dishonest and black-people-hating pseudo-analysis too often passing as post-racial cold hard truths.” One black radio broadcaster said that he felt under psychological assault for two hours. So did I.

The blacks who are enraged by “Precious” have probably figured out that this film wasn’t meant for them. It was the enthusiastic response from white audiences and critics that culminated in the film being nominated for six Oscars by the Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences, an outfit whose 43 governors are all white and whose membership in terms of diversity is about 40 years behind Mississippi. In fact, the director, Lee Daniels, said that the honor would bring even more “middle-class white Americans” to his film.

Is the enthusiasm of such white audiences and awards committees based on their being comfortable with the stereotypes shown? Barbara Bush, the former first lady, not only hosted a screening of “Precious” but also wrote about it in Newsweek, saying: “There are kids like Precious everywhere. Each day we walk by them: young boys and girls whose home lives are dark secrets.” Oprah Winfrey, whose endorsement assisted the movie’s distribution and its acceptance among her white fanbase, said, “None of us who sees the movie can now walk through the world and allow the Preciouses of the world to be invisible.”

Are Mrs. Bush and Ms. Winfrey suggesting, on the basis of a fictional film, that incest is widespread among black families? Statistics tell us that it’s certainly no more prevalent among blacks than whites. The National Center for Victims of Crime notes: “Incest does not discriminate. It happens in families that are financially privileged, as well as those of low socio-economic status. It happens to those of all racial and ethnic descent, and to those of all religious traditions.”

Given the news media’s tendency to use scandals involving black men, both fictional and real, to create “teaching tools” about the treatment of women, it was inevitable that a black male character associated with incest would be used to begin some national discussion about the state of black families.

This use of movies and books to cast collective shame upon an entire community doesn’t happen with works about white dysfunctional families. It wasn’t done, for instance, with “Requiem for a Dream,” starring the great Ellen Burstyn, about a white family dealing with drug addiction, or with “The Kiss,” a memoir about incest — in that case, a relationship between a white father and his adult daughter.

Such stereotyping has led to calamities being visited on minority communities. I’ve suggested that the Newseum in Washington create a Hall of Shame, which would include the front pages of newspapers whose inflammatory coverage led to explosions of racial hatred. I’m thinking, among many others, of 1921’s Tulsa riot, which started with a rumor that a black man had assaulted a white woman, and resulted in the murder of 300 blacks.

Black films looking to attract white audiences flatter them with another kind of stereotype: the merciful slave master. In guilt-free bits of merchandise like “Precious,” white characters are always portrayed as caring. There to help. Never shown as contributing to the oppression of African-Americans. Problems that members of the black underclass encounter are a result of their culture, their lack of personal responsibility.

It’s no surprise either that white critics — eight out of the nine comments used on the publicity Web site for “Precious” were from white men and women — maintain that the movie is worthwhile because, through the efforts of a teacher, this girl begins her first awkward efforts at writing.

Redemption through learning the ways of white culture is an old Hollywood theme. D. W. Griffith produced a series of movies in which Chinese, Indians and blacks were lifted from savagery through assimilation. A more recent example of climbing out of the ghetto through assimilation is “Dangerous Minds,” where black and Latino students are rescued by a curriculum that doesn’t include a single black or Latino writer.

By the movie’s end, Precious may be pushing toward literacy. But she is jobless, saddled with two children, one of whom has Down syndrome, and she’s learned that she has AIDS.

Some redemption.

[Hellraiser]

an outfit whose 43 governors are all white and whose membership in terms of diversity is about 40 years behind Mississippi.

Ugh, really?  You can say a lot of things about mississippi, but a lack of racial diversity is probably the single stupidest comment I've ever heard.  I haven't looked up the numbers but I would be surprised if the state isn't basically 40/40/20  Black/White/Hispanic (Sorry there aren't many asians outside of major population centers or the west coast).  I tend to find a lot of anger about race is pointed in the wrong direction and this article in particular strikes me as one of those.  This film was written by a black woman, directed by a black man, and is based at least in part truthfully on the interaction between 2 black people.  Whether or not it is flattering to the black community is kind of bull when it comes down to it.  I'm certain that white families have incest and poverty and HIV (hello!) issues there just hasn't been a movie as successful as this one or with as much hollywood push.

Does the author of this article really think that every white viewer is using this movie as a basis for comparison with EVERY black family?  Of course not, that's complete rubbish.

[mecch]

As to your first comment, I think you misread.  He was saying that the Academy (awards committee) is retarded when it comes to diversity. Unlike mississippi.

As to the second, I think the writer doesn't appreciate "people" like Barbara Bush who take this portrayal as pretty much the standard reality of many blacks. 
Remember when she went to the Houston stadium after Katrina and said something like "wow, shelter, food, medical care, all free for you here - the hurricane is working out rather well for you finally!"

[Hellraiser]

I read it as: Mississippi isn't diverse and you're not even as diverse as they are!

As for Barbara Bush, I can believe she said that.  I'm surprised I never heard about it though.

[mecch]

"What I'm hearing which is sort of scary is that they all want to stay in Texas. Everybody is so overwhelmed by the hospitality. And so many of the people in the arena here, you know, were underprivileged anyway so this (chuckle) – this is working very well for them." –Former First Lady Barbara Bush, on the hurricane evacuees at the Astrodome in Houston, Sept. 5, 2005

Read it and weap for Republican America.

http://politicalhumor.about.com/gi/o.htm?zi=1/XJ&zTi=1&sdn=politicalhumor&cdn=entertainment&tm=43&f=20&su=p504.3.336.ip_&tt=2&bt=1&bts=1&zu=http%3A//www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp%3Fvnu_content_id%3D1001054719

[bocker3]

I think there will always be people who far too easily offended -- in fact, some who look hard for things to be offended by......

I saw Precious -- thought it was a well acted and powerful movie (if a little too predictable).  Never did I say anything like, "Wow -- how do black families deal with this.".  I saw a disfunctional family (for lack of a stronger word) -- I saw what lack of an education can cause, but never saw this as something that is relegated to the African-American community.  It's probably more about socioeconomic status than race (and yes, I know that there is racial disparity there, but hell, I grew up on welfare and I'm white as the snow that is falling (again) outside my window).

So -- to answer the question -- which way you view the movie is based on how you view the world, I guess.

Mike

[GSOgymrat]

I have not seen "Precious". It sounds like the concern is less that the movie is not effective but that it puts black people in a negative light, even though it was written and produced by black people. Personally I tend to look at movies, or other forms of art, and judge them by whether they ring true and are effective rather then whether they may be misinterpreted. The movie "Boys in the Band" had very negative homosexual stereotypes and was difficult for me to watch because, for its day, it rang true and touched on the self-loathing that society instilled in gay men. If uneducated straight people watched "Boys in the Band" they could have come away thinking that gay men are all pathetic, nasty queens. However, I think that "Boys in the Band" is an effective movie that has become more important with time because it shows what many gay men have had to deal with.

[mecch]

Well thats certainly true about Boys in the Band and now its being produced as a Broadway show. That will be interesting.

[Hellraiser]

Well thats certainly true about Boys in the Band and now its being produced as a Broadway show. That will be interesting.

Gay men on Broadway?  How can this be?!

[skeebo1969]

   As a white man I have no room or place to judge what is offensive and what is not to another race, especially the often oppressed African American race.  Folks, if they find it offensive it's because it more than likely is to them.   

[GNYC09]

Well thats certainly true about Boys in the Band and now its being produced as a Broadway show. That will be interesting.

Jeffrey is coming to (off?) Broadway.  A friend-of-a-friend tried out for a key role.  I loved the movie and hope the play is just as good.

[leatherman]

Jeffrey is coming to (off?) Broadway.  A friend-of-a-friend tried out for a key role.  I loved the movie and hope the play is just as good.

I own that movie and love it too. (Michael T. Weiss WOOF!)
Because it's not as sad, I love it almost as much as Brokeback.

sorry about the hijack , you can go back to chatting about some movie that I'll never see

[edfu]

Well thats certainly true about Boys in the Band and now its being produced as a Broadway show. That will be interesting.

No, I'm afraid it's not on Broadway.  Technically, it's off-off-Broadway, on W. 26th St., in an actual loft-apartment.  The attendees (less than 100 per performance) will be seated throughout the loft (a penthouse apartment), amidst the actors.  This is a site-specific environmental project; the whole apartment becomes the stage, and the audience members become other (hopefully silent) guests at Harold's birthday party.   

http://broadwayworld.com/bwidb/sections/theatres/index.php?var=8046

[Ann]

No, I'm afraid it's not on Broadway.  Technically, it's off-off-Broadway, on W. 26th St., in an actual loft-apartment.  The attendees (less than 100 per performance) will be seated throughout the loft (a penthouse apartment), amidst the actors.  This is a site-specific environmental project; the whole apartment becomes the stage, and the audience members become other (hopefully silent) guests at Harold's birthday party.   

http://broadwayworld.com/bwidb/sections/theatres/index.php?var=8046

Wow, what a great concept! Has this been done before or is this "experimental"? I'd love to attend a performance like this.

[BT65]

I really liked "Precious."  And at work I discussed it with our accountant, who's an older black lady, who had also watched it.  She said "we've known about this kind of thing for years; it's just never talked about." 

[edfu]

Has this been done before or is this "experimental"?

Site-specific and environmental staged productions are not new.  Theater purists insist that "true" site-specific productions must be specifically written for the site--i.e., not a stage in a theater--but most are plays written for a stage-theater and then produced in an appropriate environment other than a theater.  Most must also be nonprofit, because of the limited seating available outside of a theater setting.  Some of the most memorable are Shakespeare plays.  "Hamlet" has been produced a number of times--with Laurence Olivier and John Gielgud, for example--on the battlements and in the courtyard of Kronberg Castle (also known as Elsinore) in Denmark.  "As You Like It," which takes place in the Forest of Arden, has been staged a number of times in the wooded areas of public parks. 

"Boys in the Band" is ideally suited for production in an actual apartment because it takes place in an apartment.  Also, since it's about a birthday party, the attendees can be regarded as additional celebrants at the party.  To my knowledge, this has never previously been done with "Boys," and I cannot remember a similar play set in an apartment done (in NYC) in an actual apartment. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Site_specific_theatre

[mecch]

Tony and Tina's Wedding.  Written to be experienced.  It's pretty slight.
Isn't Boys in the Band running right now?
But why did I hear - where did I hear - that someone wants to make it a broadway musical?
here's a review of the 1970 Boys:
http://www.brightlightsfilm.com/24/boysband.html

"Some of its (Boys in the Band) business may have been preempted by queer critics, who were among the harshest. (Friedkin would learn a lesson from this; Cruising begins with a groveling disclaimer that says the film is "not meant to be representative of the whole" gay community.) The late Vito Russo, author of The Celluloid Closet, no doubt spoke for many in being conflicted about it, calling it both "not positive" and "fair" in the same sentence. But ultimately he condemns it as a kind of Green Pastures for queers and a lamentable exercise in self-loathing."  emphasis added - mecch

________________________
Green Pastures???

The Green Pastures is a play written in 1930 by Marc Connelly adapted from Ol' Man Adam an' His Chillun (1928), a collection of stories written by Roark Bradford.

The play portrays episodes from the Old Testament as seen through the eyes of a young African-American child in the Depression-era South, who interprets The Bible in terms familiar to her. Following Bradford's lead, Connelly (a white man) set the biblical stories in New Orleans and in an all-black context. He diverged from Bradford's work, however, in enlarging the role of the character "De Lawd" (God) played on stage by Richard B. Harrison (1864-1935), who was born in London, Ontario, Canada. The Green Pastures also featured numerous African American spirituals arranged by Hall Johnson and performed by The Hall Johnson Choir. The play was the winner of the Pulitzer Prize for Drama in 1930.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Green_Pastures
_____________________

Funny both of these dirty secrets nobody wants to talk about surfacing right at this moment.  Looks like  Precious is getting some praise for talking about something nobody really wants to talk about.  

Last night I was watching recent Daily Shows.  Stewart did a big bit about South Carolina Lt. Gov. Andre Bauer (what a queer name by the way, I was thinking) quote comparing welfare recipients to stray animals.

"My grandmother was not a highly educated woman, but she told me as a small child to quit feeding stray animals. You know why? Because they breed! You're facilitating the problem if you give an animal or a person ample food supply. They will reproduce, especially ones that don't think too much further than that."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jpb4nwfiaPY

So I go to YouTube looking for that quote above.  And what do I find (you still with me?)

WIS-TV: Is Lt Gov Andre Bauer a gay man?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4noAv4omAnM&feature=related

Gotta love these connections.

[Ann]

Site-specific and environmental staged productions are not new.

Oh dear, I now realise I was being a bit thick. ~understatement~ I have attended several Shakespeare plays performed in the grounds of Peel Castle in the town where I live.





Sorry 'bout the hijack.

I haven't seen the film (would like to) and I agree with those who say that some will find offence no matter what you do or say. That's life. I think if the people in the film were poor and white instead of poor and black, nobody would say the film was presenting a bad picture of all whites. Same thing here. Most people are intelligent enough to realise a snapshot of one particular person isn't indicative of a whole race of people. At least I'd like to think most people are intelligent enough...

[Hellraiser]

Using one person as a template for an entire people (especially as determined by race) is being prejudiced or just generalizing.  Generalizations with people are bad.

[mecch]

I think if the people in the film were poor and white instead of poor and black, nobody would say the film was presenting a bad picture of all whites. Same thing here. Most people are intelligent enough to realise a snapshot of one particular person isn't indicative of a whole race of people. At least I'd like to think most people are intelligent enough...

The reviewer made the point that nobody makes generalisations about incest or AIDS or illiteracy in white films.   He claims such stories are taken as a story about individuals.  He criticises blacks and whites who take the Precious situation as indicative of a general black experience (80's ghetto poor).

But we certainly have stereotypes about white trash.

Eminem's 8 mile was pretty stereotyping but rang true enough to describe a group, but not a race.  Jersey Shore is filled with true and "acted out" stereotyping.  Half America still doesn't realise that these are not kids from New Jersey - just north east Italian Americans.

It's an old question in "issue" movies or "slumming" entertainments.  How much of the acting out is "real" or  "reality based" and how much is just made up to make an interesting profitable entertainment product.

Why IS the teacher in Precious light skinned and beautiful?  Very Michele Pfeiffer.  

There is a running gag in Precious about her dreaming of being light skinned.  Marrying her hotty (white) math teacher, and moving to Westchester.  Also being a big dark black mama dreamgirl star, and because a star, and a hot light-skinned black -- or latino? -- making love to her.  

Remember the Henry Louis Gates incident last year.  "You assume I'm a crook and then I tell you I'm a famous Havard Professor and I get busted anyway for being uppity."  

I love the scenes where all the "whiteys" (light skinned blacks) either get the lies they want to hear (prissy welfare social worker), or get the truth they ask for but don't want to hear, really (hard realistic social worker Mariah Carey).  Mariah Carey's reaction is priceless. Good direction, I must say!

[skeebo1969]

But we certainly have stereotypes about white trash.

Eminem's 8 mile was pretty stereotyping but rang true enough to describe a group, but not a race.  Jersey Shore is filled with true and "acted out" stereotyping.  Half America still doesn't realise that these are not kids from New Jersey - just north east Italian Americans.

It's an old question in "issue" movies or "slumming" entertainments.  How much of the acting out is "real" or  "reality based" and how much is just made up to make an interesting profitable entertainment product.

Why IS the teacher in Precious light skinned and beautiful?  Very Michele Pfeiffer.  

There is a running gag in Precious about her dreaming of being light skinned.  Marrying her hotty (white) math teacher, and moving to Westchester.  Also being a big dark black mama dreamgirl star, and because a star, and a hot light-skinned black -- or latino? -- making love to her.  

Remember the Henry Louis Gates incident last year.  "You assume I'm a crook and then I tell you I'm a famous Havard Professor and I get busted anyway for being uppity."  

I love the scenes where all the "whiteys" (light skinned blacks) either get the lies they want to hear (prissy welfare social worker), or get the truth they ask for but don't want to hear, really (hard realistic social worker Mariah Carey).  Mariah Carey's reaction is priceless. Good direction, I must say!

   I always get amused when I hear white people talk about an issue they've never experienced or lived through.  It's usually the most prejudiced of whites that clarify the other race has nothing to complain about.  Having once worked at the top of the corporate ladder, I can attest that racism is very much alive and not just in the deep South.

   I grew up in a predominately black neighborhood.  Our schools sucked, our streets sucked, the police hardly ever came when called, and here we paid the same taxes as everyone else.  My high school didnt have textbooks for the students, everything was passed your way by xerox copies.  It's not a fair and even playing field, never has been but hopefully one day it will be. 

   Perhaps, just perhaps this is where the offending parties take issue with this easily.  It's not just about the subject matter in the movie... it's about what some people are subjected to their entire life.
   

[megasept]

Barbara "They-never-had-it-so-good" Bush has no business commenting publicly on any issue involving race and class in our America, let alone race, class, and sexual abuse of women.

Can't comment on a movie---let alone the debates on a movie---i won't pay to see (Waiting for Netflix).

-Steven (aka   megasept)

[mecch]

Well, the thing is about Barbara's comment, its completely abhorrent but in a perverted way you know it makes sense. Blacks (and poor, but mostly poor blacks) were left to die and suffer in New Orleans. Finally rescued, they got to Texas, dry land, and were treated like humans and Americans again.  If there had been one ivy league child of someone in congress stuck in New Orleans, you better believe everything would have moved faster.  

You see the key to Barbara's quote is that she "chuckled" when she thought how it worked out for the evacuees. 
The next question she should have asked was - why was New Orleans the poorest city, and why would being a homeless evacuee be better than a working safety net in one's hometown.

[GSOgymrat]

   I always get amused when I hear white people talk about an issue they've never experienced or lived through

Yeah, I feel the same way about heterosexuals.

[BT65]

   I always get amused when I hear white people talk about an issue they've never experienced or lived through.  It's usually the most prejudiced of whites that clarify the other race has nothing to complain about.  Having once worked at the top of the corporate ladder, I can attest that racism is very much alive and not just in the deep South.

   I grew up in a predominately black neighborhood.  Our schools sucked, our streets sucked, the police hardly ever came when called, and here we paid the same taxes as everyone else.  My high school didnt have textbooks for the students, everything was passed your way by xerox copies.  It's not a fair and even playing field, never has been but hopefully one day it will be. 

   Perhaps, just perhaps this is where the offending parties take issue with this easily.  It's not just about the subject matter in the movie... it's about what some people are subjected to their entire life.
   

Thomas, you may have grown up in a predominately black neighborhood, but you're still a male.  Let me tell you about an experience I had with black men when I was 14-15.  I was "going with" an 18-year old very street smart black man.  I didn't know he was prepping me to be one of his hoes.  When I was in his home town seeing him, two black men from Chicago showed up, to pick up some girls to work for them, and another older black man from the home town showed up to find another ho for himself.  They all argued over who I was going to "work" for.  I ended up getting gang raped several times, and then abducted and raped repeatedly over a 3 day period.  Finally the state police got involved.  Because of my physical injuries from the rape and some beatings, I had to take a month off school to recover.  I cannot tell you how many years it took for me to get over seeing a black man, and if he were looking at me, or another white girl,  thinking he was only out after one thing.  Both races are capable of terrible inhumanities.  To hold an incident against a whole race, forever and ever however, is wrong. 

Precious was an excellent movie.  I didn't see a stereotype; I saw an emotionally moving story of a strong, young woman who overcame insurmountable odds. 

[Miss Philicia]

Having once worked at the top of the corporate ladder

Management at Arby's?

[skeebo1969]

Management at Arby's?

No actually a city manager for Hertz.  Good guess, what is it exactly you do again?

[skeebo1969]

Thomas, you may have grown up in a predominately black neighborhood, but you're still a male.  Let me tell you about an experience I had with black men when I was 14-15.  I was "going with" an 18-year old very street smart black man.  I didn't know he was prepping me to be one of his hoes.  When I was in his home town seeing him, two black men from Chicago showed up, to pick up some girls to work for them, and another older black man from the home town showed up to find another ho for himself.  They all argued over who I was going to "work" for.  I ended up getting gang raped several times, and then abducted and raped repeatedly over a 3 day period.  Finally the state police got involved.  Because of my physical injuries from the rape and some beatings, I had to take a month off school to recover.  I cannot tell you how many years it took for me to get over seeing a black man, and if he were looking at me, or another white girl,  thinking he was only out after one thing.  Both races are capable of terrible inhumanities.  To hold an incident against a whole race, forever and ever however, is wrong. 

Precious was an excellent movie.  I didn't see a stereotype; I saw an emotionally moving story of a strong, young woman who overcame insurmountable odds. 

Betty, that is definitely a terrible experience you went through and you say you looked at black men as having one thing on their mind.  This was because of your experience, right?  Reverse that into the injustices others have went through and you'll see my point as to why some are complaining.  Both my wife and I have seen the movie, she is African American, and she said it didn't offend her one bit .  My point here was we cannot discount another person's complaint if we have no idea how that person feels.

All I know is I can't pass judgement on it.  I will never know what it feels like to go through such things.. but I do acknowledge that it does exist.

[Miss Philicia]

No actually a city manager for Hertz.  Good guess, what is it exactly you do again?

I'm the main supplier for all of the heroin in the northeast.

[Hellraiser]

I'm the main supplier for all of the heroin in the northeast.

Thank you from the bottom of my heart.

I mean, what?

[BT65]

Betty, that is definitely a terrible experience you went through and you say you looked at black men as having one thing on their mind.  This was because of your experience, right?  Reverse that into the injustices others have went through and you'll see my point as to why some are complaining. 

Thomas, I can understand about people being distraught because of things they go through.  With me, I had gotten out of the situation, and did get over my own stereotyping.  When any race takes some incidence, and aplies it to a whole race of people it's just wrong.  This is, of course, my own opinion.

[Queen Tokelove]

I saw Precious quite a few times. Mainly because I kept nodding out on it. But once I finally got through it all, I thought it was a decent movie. Some parts of it angered me, not because it portrayed blacks in a negative light. But because of how the mother treated Precious. But then most people feel some type of way when negative things is brought to the light. I am still wondering why some see it like that.  I could relate to that because it reminded me of someone in my own family. And why any blacks would be angered by this movie is beyond me.