Herbs/Vitamins/Supplements to take?

[blackwingbear]

Coming from those of you who do herbal-supplements and vitamins in addition to meds, what would you recommend for a near middle-aged male with HIV? Some have said Grapeseed Extract & Juniper Berry, others told me to up my Selenium and Fish Oil. Any suggestions/advice?

[mecch]

Check out CATIE supplement sheets.  Happy reading:

http://www.catie.ca/supple-e.nsf/supplement+sheets

[blackwingbear]

Check out CATIE supplement sheets.  Happy reading:

http://www.catie.ca/supple-e.nsf/supplement+sheets

OH, Thank You SO much! This is EXTREMELY helpful!!!

[Okealyshire]

Blackwing, I'd encourage you to go read through the history of threads on this board. You'll learn a lot about the various herbs and supplements we've experimented with over time -- and you'll learn, as did I, that their claims generally haven't lived up to the hype.

Right now, the consensus, backed up by articles and reports published on this and other sites, seems to be centering around high doses of Vitamin D, supplemental calcium, and fish oil; probiotics also garner mention. The need for supplemental selenium looks to be on the wane; its supporting research was done during pre-HAART days.

[mecch]

Oh and fish oil has pcbs.  So just eat fresh fish.

[PozBrian]

Multi-vitamian and fish oil is all I take. The fish oil was my Dr's idea because my HDL was so low. I ran across this graphic on digg a little while ago. It might help you separate the fish oil from the snake oil.

http://i.imgur.com/PzYiL.png

[madbrain]

Oh and fish oil has pcbs.  So just eat fresh fish.

Fresh fish has PCBs too .

[blackwingbear]

Blackwing, I'd encourage you to go read through the history of threads on this board. You'll learn a lot about the various herbs and supplements we've experimented with over time -- and you'll learn, as did I, that their claims generally haven't lived up to the hype.

Right now, the consensus, backed up by articles and reports published on this and other sites, seems to be centering around high doses of Vitamin D, supplemental calcium, and fish oil; probiotics also garner mention. The need for supplemental selenium looks to be on the wane; its supporting research was done during pre-HAART days.

I never found any supplements making any claims - just lots of naysayers who want to tell you not to take anything at all except what a doctor prescribes you.

[Miss Philicia]

just lots of naysayers

Would that be The Cabal?

[blackwingbear]

Would that be The Cabal?

You'd know better than I.... I'm still new here.

[Hellraiser]

You'd know better than I.... I'm still new here.

He was asking which "Naysayers" you were referring to.

[Miss Philicia]

Talk about passive aggressive.

[blackwingbear]

Talk about passive aggressive.

Yes, that IS what I'd call what you're doing.

[mecch]

Blackwing, the catie sight has lots of information. You can also look at New York Buyers Club website.  There are tons of recommendations available one you start googling a specific supplement and HIV.

[blackwingbear]

Blackwing, the catie sight has lots of information. You can also look at New York Buyers Club website.  There are tons of recommendations available one you start googling a specific supplement and HIV.

Thank you so much! It IS appreciated!

[blackwingbear]

He was asking which "Naysayers" you were referring to.

nay·say·er [ náy sày ər ] (plural nay·say·ers) noun
Definition:an objector. somebody who speaks against something, especially somebody who habitually expresses contrary opinions

I was referring to the ones who are against taking vitamins and herbal-supplements in addition to their prescribed regimen.

[Hellraiser]

nay·say·er [ náy sày ər ] (plural nay·say·ers) noun
Definition:an objector. somebody who speaks against something, especially somebody who habitually expresses contrary opinions

I was referring to the ones who are against taking vitamins and herbal-supplements in addition to their prescribed regimen.

So I'm not sure you've caught onto how this forum thingy works...lemme help you out.  You asked for some information.  People responded in kind with their opinions for and against any particular thing.  You were referenced some information that's a little bit more objective.  Why you lobbed the first stone by referring to anyone as a naysayer is beyond me.  They gave their opinion, that it is not in line with your own just means it's different (not right or wrong).  It looks like the consensus amongst most of the forum members here is that most of the herbal stuff is crap.  Multivitamin, calcium+D, fish oil, and probiotics all got good reviews.  If you didn't want our opinions, why did you ask at all?  You could've found the resources on your own or through reading back through older threads.  There's no need to argue or call names.  Everyone here isn't against you contrary to what you may think.

[Texan38]

I began seeing a new Doctor and she recommended for me to take Prenatal Vitamins.  She said she recommends that to all her HIV patients.

[blackwingbear]

So I'm not sure you've caught onto how this forum thingy works...lemme help you out.  You asked for some information.  People responded in kind with their opinions for and against any particular thing.  You were referenced some information that's a little bit more objective.  Why you lobbed the first stone by referring to anyone as a naysayer is beyond me.  They gave their opinion, that it is not in line with your own just means it's different (not right or wrong).  It looks like the consensus amongst most of the forum members here is that most of the herbal stuff is crap.  Multivitamin, calcium+D, fish oil, and probiotics all got good reviews.  If you didn't want our opinions, why did you ask at all?  You could've found the resources on your own or through reading back through older threads.  There's no need to argue or call names.  Everyone here isn't against you contrary to what you may think.

OK, while you are busy trying to take offense to something and busy trying to find something to take offense at - I wasn't referring to either of you, I was referring to people who are adamantly against taking supplements in addition to your meds. I asked those who WEREN'T desperate for somebody to fight with what supplements they recommend - and intended an answer from someone who IS for taking supplements.. I COULD'VE gone on Google to try to find it, but I didn't... I asked members of this forum because they have first-hand experience with HIV. I wasn't arguing with anyone and I wasn't calling anyone any names. Now get over yourself, princess. Geez.

[blackwingbear]

I began seeing a new Doctor and she recommended for me to take Prenatal Vitamins.  She said she recommends that to all her HIV patients.

That's a good idea, actually.

[Okealyshire]

I began seeing a new Doctor and she recommended for me to take Prenatal Vitamins.  She said she recommends that to all her HIV patients.

Might prenatal vitamins have too much iron for men? I checked the ingredients of several prenatal vitamins on the Walgreens web site; the iron content ranged between 25 and 30 mg.

[blackwingbear]

Might prenatal vitamins have too much iron for men? I checked the ingredients of several prenatal vitamins on the Walgreens web site; the iron content ranged between 25 and 30 mg.

I take 27 mg of Iron a day anyway....

[Nestor]

Blackwingbear,

Do you have a reason for taking iron?  Most men have too much iron in their system to begin with and taking extra as a supplement is said to be one of the worst things we could do.  Do you specifically have a deficiency and know you need some? 

[blackwingbear]

Blackwingbear,

Do you have a reason for taking iron?  Most men have too much iron in their system to begin with and taking extra as a supplement is said to be one of the worst things we could do.  Do you specifically have a deficiency and know you need some? 

I began taking it as the multivitamin I take doesn't contain Iron. What is the normal level for a middle-aged male to consume daily?

[Nestor]

I've just pulled down from the shelf a guide to health which I won't dare name as it would incur the wrath of those hostile to "alternative" medicine, who are numerous here.  Without quoting from it at length, the message of the relevant chapter is as follows:

1. The average man already had enough or, in fact, more than enough iron in his system, and the tendency to excess increases with age.  

2. Even a moderately healthy diet contains plenty of iron.  That is, you have to be making a conscious effort to get enough zinc or enough potassium from your food, but even the average American probably gets enough iron.  

3. The consequences of excessive iron in a man's bloodstream are dire and range from oxidative stress, inflammation, artery disease, cancer, general heaviness of body and mind.  

Also, most minerals need to be in balance with other minerals in order to function properly.  In the case of iron, there needs to be a certain balance between it and zinc and copper; too much of any one of the three can lead to deficiencies in the others.  Since many of us do not get enough zinc to begin with, excess iron could result in serious zinc deficiency, which for many of us is a real problem.  Most multi-vitamins designed for men--like the one you mention--deliberately do not include iron because men already have enough; they contain zinc and copper in order to bring them into balance.  

Personally, I avoid anything in pill form and try to get all my vitamins and minerals from food.  For example, I eat oysters a lot because I believe in zinc, I eat almonds regularly for vitamin E, and I eat various things (tuna, barley, mushrooms) to get selenium.  Liver and kidneys are healthy food, despite lots of iron, because, also being rich in copper, they don't lead to imbalance.  Most whole foods, eaten in sane quantities, and in something resembling a rational balance with other whole foods, will produce a reasonable balance of nutrients.  It's when we start taking supplements that we need to worry.  

I hope this helps!  

[leatherman]

I began taking it as the multivitamin I take doesn't contain Iron. What is the normal level for a middle-aged male to consume daily?

the better ? to ask is why are u taking it if u don't know that answer?

I recently started taking a multi-vitamin because the SC ADAP pharmacy that my clinic runs prescription though gives me a free bottle every month , and these don't make me puke like so many others have that I tried years ago . (there I was in the other thread dissing SC , yet they do give me free vitamins even if they are going to quit paying for HIV meds. ) I don't take anything else because I haven't a clue about what is needed or what dosages. 

(I just realized too that I also haven't noticed any change in health over the last 4 months of taking these vitamins either.  hmmm. i may just quit then if it's not going to make my health any different than not taking it. Maybe I'll give it another 2 months and evaluate the value of vitamins at 6 months)

[blackwingbear]

I've just pulled down from the shelf a guide to health which I won't dare name as it would incur the wrath of those hostile to "alternative" medicine, who are numerous here.

So I have noticed!

[blackwingbear]

1. The average man already had enough or, in fact, more than enough iron in his system, and the tendency to excess increases with age.  

2. Even a moderately healthy diet contains plenty of iron.  That is, you have to be making a conscious effort to get enough zinc or enough potassium from your food, but even the average American probably gets enough iron.  

3. The consequences of excessive iron in a man's bloodstream are dire and range from oxidative stress, inflammation, artery disease, cancer, general heaviness of body and mind.  

Well, with that in mind perhaps I'd best stave-off of it.

[blackwingbear]

(I just realized too that I also haven't noticed any change in health over the last 4 months of taking these vitamins either.  hmmm. i may just quit then if it's not going to make my health any different than not taking it. Maybe I'll give it another 2 months and evaluate the value of vitamins at 6 months)

What do you consider a change in your health here? A multivitamin provides the nutrients your body needs to continue functioning.

[Hellraiser]

What do you consider a change in your health here? A multivitamin provides the nutrients your body needs to continue functioning.

So does eating.

[blackwingbear]

So does eating.

If your diet has a broad enough range of vitamins and nutrients, true!!

[Miss Philicia]

I've had four HIV specialists/GPs over the course of 17 years and each one has specified a multi-vitamin without iron.

It's always wise for the patient to initiate a discussion with their doctor about what vitamins, etc. they take with their HIV meds so that one avoids the situation the OP finds himself in.

[edfu]

I take 27 mg of Iron a day anyway....

I began taking it as the multivitamin I take doesn't contain Iron. What is the normal level for a middle-aged male to consume daily?

You really need to spend more time researching the supplements you take or are thinking of taking and less time belly-aching about the antiretrovirals that will save your life.  Nestor has given you the dire consequences of having too much iron in your system.  The recommended daily amount of iron for men 19 years and older is 8 mg, and that includes from the food you eat, which should be sufficient.  The absolute daily maximum amount for those deficient in iron is 45 mg.  You need to have your blood tested for iron levels to determine if you are deficient or have too much.  Check this out:

http://dietary-supplements.info.nih.gov/factsheets/iron.asp

Several years ago I was diagnosed with hemochromatosis, which is too much iron in my system.  The cure is phlebotomy, wherein a pint of blood is removed once or twice a week for several months to a year.  This blood is then actually discarded.  Terrible.  Luckily, my doctor figured that my excessive iron might be coming from a common brand-name multi-vitamin with iron I was taking; he advised switching to a multi-vitamin, like you are currently taking, that does not contain any iron.  That actually solved the problem.  So the level of iron in your blood can be quite sensitive and should not be fooled with willy-nilly.  

See if your doctor will test your iron level the next time you get your blood tested, and in the meantime stop taking the supplement.  Good luck.      

[Assurbanipal]

I take 27 mg of Iron a day anyway....

Heart attack city...

Unless you are losing blood through monthly menstruation (which doesn't seem too likely eh?   ) you don't need an iron supplement.  And excessive iron in the diet can increase heart attack risk for people with certain (not uncommon) genes.

[blackwingbear]

You really need to spend more time researching the supplements you take or are thinking of taking and less time belly-aching about the antiretrovirals that will save your life.

Show me a quote where I belly-ache about taking Atripla. Go ahead, I dare ya - you won't because I love the shit. Ever think maybe that your assumptions are wrong??

[blackwingbear]

I've had four HIV specialists/GPs over the course of 17 years and each one has specified a multi-vitamin without iron.

It's always wise for the patient to initiate a discussion with their doctor about what vitamins, etc. they take with their HIV meds so that one avoids the situation the OP finds himself in.

TRUE. Unfortunately, I'm in Georgia - I get to see my doctor MAYBE once every 5-6 months.

[Miss Philicia]

TRUE. Unfortunately, I'm in Georgia - I get to see my doctor MAYBE once every 5-6 months.

And how long have you been ingesting all of this iron, pray tell?

[blackwingbear]

And how long have you been ingesting all of this iron, pray tell?

Just a couple months now, as the multivitamin I switched to doesn't contain it (sharing a multivitamin container with my other-half who has polycythemia and cannot take iron). Seeing as I don't need it and shouldn't take it, I can cut that out.

[edfu]

Show me a quote where I belly-ache about taking Atripla. Go ahead, I dare ya - you won't because I love the shit. Ever think maybe that your assumptions are wrong??

...just trying to get your attention.   

[Miss Philicia]

Just a couple months now, as the multivitamin I switched to doesn't contain it (sharing a multivitamin container with my other-half who has polycythemia and cannot take iron). Seeing as I don't need it and shouldn't take it, I can cut that out.

That's good that it's only a couple of months.  I could be wrong, but I think it's women that need iron so maybe you can just give your stuff to a girl and go buy some new without iron.  Still, I will reiterate that if you want to go down the supplement road just shove a list of what your taking at your doctor and make him discuss it.

Personally I'm not a "naysayer" about this topic, as I took loads of stuff in the early/mid-90's, but I've now arrived at a less-is-more approach as it leads to less potential conflicts.  You know how a couple years later you can easily find out that you shouldn't have been taking this or that, etc.  So I just keep it simple with the multi-vitamin, fish oil (really only needed if your lipid profile is slightly elevated, though personally I've only seen it have a slight effect) and calcium/vit-D (your Atripla contains tenofovir so I'd actually highly recommend taking this to counteract any bone density issues down the road -- in fact I'd make it a priority of doing it even above other stuff).

[blackwingbear]

...just trying to get your attention.   

Um...Why? *facepalm*

[blackwingbear]

Personally I'm not a "naysayer" about this topic, as I took loads of stuff in the early/mid-90's, but I've now arrived at a less-is-more approach as it leads to less potential conflicts.  You know how a couple years later you can easily find out that you shouldn't have been taking this or that, etc.  So I just keep it simple with the multi-vitamin, fish oil (really only needed if your lipid profile is slightly elevated, though personally I've only seen it have a slight effect) and calcium/vit-D (your Atripla contains tenofovir so I'd actually highly recommend taking this to counteract any bone density issues down the road -- in fact I'd make it a priority of doing it even above other stuff).

Thank you, Miss P... That was helpful - I hadn't considered the effect of the Tenofovir! 

[edfu]

Um...Why? *facepalm*

You, yesterday at 2:03:  "I'm an arrogant asshole...and proud of it."   

[blackwingbear]

You, yesterday at 2:03:  "I'm an arrogant asshole...and proud of it."   

Yeah... So? It's kept me alive this long. Or was that the problem you had with the statement?

[blackwingbear]

You, yesterday at 2:03:  "I'm an arrogant asshole...and proud of it."   

Somehow I really fail to see the connection you are trying to make here.

[edfu]

I'm sorry.  My sense of humor is vile.  I was just trying to help. 

[blackwingbear]

I'm sorry.  My sense of humor is vile.  I was just trying to help. 

No problem at all. I have a really weird sense of humor myself that most people don't get.