Back With A New Concern

[returner]

Hello
As my username and subject imply, I've been here before. It was last year. I went to massage parlor, ended up sucking on the nipples of a woman and became conerned about that activity as a transmission vector. The people here and a test convinced me otherwise. Intellectually, I know HIV is not easily transmitted.

Monday I went back to same massage parlor. Different woman this time. I shouldn't have done it. It's expensive. I'm alos married so it's cheating. Something inside me just said, "Do it one last time. Just be careful." I've now learned I can't do such things. It triggers too much guilt and anxiety.

In any event, because of my previous experience, I was very careful, to a  point. My awarness level was very high. I checked where I laid down. It was a topless message again but I did not put my mouth on her nipples. I did, however, put my hand down her dress and felt her thighs and the outside of her vagina. I put one finger tip (No cuts) on her vaginal lips. I recall thinking that I shouldn't be concerned about encountering anything down there because of what I learned on this site. I briefly felt some mositness but never any real wetness. She then told me that I hadn't paid to touch her down there. I complied and removed my hand. I never really entered her. Only trace of anything could have ever been on that finger.

Unfortunately, I then used that same hand a 3-4 few minutes later to stroke the shaft of my penis but never the head. The whole event occured with a lot massage oil on my penis. I wonder if that would facilitate or inhibit transmission of any virus (and I know that wouldn't have been much) that might have gotten on the shaft of my penis. I guess I'm curious about the moisture, temp and ph issues I've read Ann mention.

I feel like a real loser for going to the massage parlor. I feel the same way about coming to you all with this. My intellect from coming here and learning tells me no risk, that I might even be wasting your time, that my description and fear of this woman might even be a little insulting. I'm sorry for that.

I'm just looking for some feedback. I would like to move on.

[RapidRod]

Take the time and Read the "Welcome Post." You weren't at risk this time, as you were not the first time you posted.

[Andy Velez]

As Rod suggested, read the lesson on transmission.

There was absolutely no risk for HIV transmission in this latest incident you're concerned about.

The real issue is your feelings about this incident, specifically guilt. You need to sort out what you're comfortable with doing and what is going to make you feel like crap after the excitement.

Happily this is not in anyway an HIV situation.

Cheers,

[returner]

Rod, Andy:

Thanks for your replies. I've read the Lessons. Can either of you, or anybody else, elaborate on why this is no risk instead of low risk. I think I know, but I want to be sure to understand what I know.

[Matty the Damned]

Rod, Andy:

Thanks for your replies. I've read the Lessons. Can either of you, or anybody else, elaborate on why this is no risk instead of low risk. I think I know, but I want to be sure to understand what I know.

The reason that there is no risk from the things you describe is that 25 years of careful observation has demonstrated the following:

HIV is transmitted through unprotected anal or vaginal sex;

HIV is transmitted through sharing contaminated needles and syringes;

HIV is transmitted under certain circumstances from HIV positive mother to baby in utero (that means prior to birth).

HIV requires a specific set of conditions to be transmitted. Such conditions do not apply in your case. Read our Welcome Thread and get on with your life.

MtD

[returner]

Matty, Thanks for the reply.

I went back and read the lessons. I also spent some time reading answers to other questions on mutual masturbation. I mentioned that I want to understand what I have been told here. Here's my conclusion based on what I've learned today:

I was not a risk from digital contact because I didn't have any open cut son my finger.

I was not at risk from the genital-to-finger-to-genital contact because:

1) Any exposure would have been to vaginal secretions, which contain less virus than the fluids deeper in the vagina that are the probable source of infection during intercourse. The relative smaller amount of virus in the secretions at the opening of the vagina is the main reason why there are no documented cases of transmission from oral sex performed on a woman.

2) Absent the remote possibility of transmission through a cut, the vaginal secretions were  outside her body for a couple of minutes. Given the small amount fluid involved (just a trace), the secretions would've probably dried quickly in the air. I understand this essentially damages the virus to the point of rendering it inactive. 

3) Any virus that might have remained viable when that finger contacted my penis had no opening to enter my body since I did not touch the top of my penis. Even then, I would have had to force that trace amount of now probably dry fluid into my urethra.

The bottom line is that my episode involved a very small amount of a lower-risk fluid (when compared to blood or seman) in an open-air environment without an immediate point of entry to my body. This dosen't come close to the "specific set of conditions"
required for transmission.

Have I digested the science correctly?

[Andy Velez]

Yes.

Get on with your life.

[Ann]

returner,

I'll second that. You've got a good understanding now, so remember what you've learned and move on with your life.

Remember also to always use condoms for anal or vaginal intercourse and you will avoid hiv infection. It really, really is that simple.

Please read through the condom and lube links in my signature line so you can use those condoms with confidence. We aren't born knowing the correct way to use them, so get reading!

Ann

[returner]

Ann, Andy:

Thank you very much for your replies. I have learned a great deal from you and many of the others on this forum. I would also like to thank Jonathan. While he never actually responded to my post, his posts to other concerns have significantly bolstered my knowledge. That all of you spend so much of your time helping others .... words cannot express my appreciation.

Of course, I have one more question. I mentioned in my situation the presence of lots of massage oil. I believe the oil would be damaging to any vaginal secretions that were on my finger. It's my theory. But I am curious as to whether the oil might have delayed drying the virus, thus prolonging its active status.

Also, about how long can the virus remain active in vaginal secretions outside the body? I read some conflicting info on this forum. At least, it seemed conflicting to me.

Thanks.


P.S. - Now that the U.S. is out, go England!

[RapidRod]

returner, you've been given factual answers already to all of your questions. You WON'T get HIV from fingering and using the same hand to masterbate. HIV does not stay active in body lotions or any other kind of lotions or does it stay active outside the body. It's a fragile virus. Like the others have told you, move on with your life, HIV is not a concern here.

[returner]

THanks for all of your relies.

I know that I am risking scorn by posting again. Perhaps that's what I need.

I'm trying to move on. I 've only visited this site a couple of times since my last post. However, and despite the expert advice, I have difficulty completely moving on.

Here is my latest problem: Saturday morning I woke up with some wierd pain in my scalp above my ear. It feels like a little bite or bruise. Since then I have two more little sensative areas that run up my scalp. Of course, I have pushed and rubbed them and probably made them far worse. I have no other "symptoms." 

I guess I'm driving myself nuts. Last night I went back to the massage parlor just to ask the woman if she has anything. She said all the right things. I suppose that really means nothing. 

I know some of you are going to think I need face-to-face counseling. Unfortunately, I can't afford it. I honestly have no one to talk to about all this. That's why I am posting again. It feels good to do this.

My questions (and they are my last):

1. Am I driving my self nuts? 

2. What kind of history would I make it I was indeed positive?

I won't post again. I know continued posting is annoying and selfish.

[RapidRod]

Seek the help of a mental health professional with your concerns.

[Andy Velez]

OK Returner, it's time to call a halt here because you are doing yourself no good real fast by indulging in more what ifs.

The bottom line is you have absolutely no basis whatsoever in HIV science for being concerned about HIV in relation to this latest incident.

It doesn't matter what fears and concerns your mind may continue to come up with. HIV is not your issue and you can let go of that right now.

Maybe it's your basic personality structure or guilt or whatever. All I can say is you don't have an HIV problem. Period. End of story.

If you can't let go of this and of your sometimes impulsive behavior with regard to sexual massages, then you might consider seeing a therapist or other professional to discuss it. Or a steps program that deals with sexual issues. Happily you do not have an HIV problem. HIV jitters yes, but that's a whole separate issue.

So please, no more questions about your what ifs.

Cheers,

[returner]

Today, almost exactly four weeks after the incident, I developed one small canker sore.

I was a long way toward putting all this behind me. I was still coming here to read the boards every other day but I stopped posting as promissed. My stress eased but was not completely gone.

Based on what I've been told here and have read her, I am leaning toward thinking my sore is either stress-related or jut coincidental. I have gotten such sores before. Usually, whan I'm stressed. 

I now I come off as some fool. I apologize for that. I'm usually so much stronger than this. Thank you for taking the time to read.

 

[Ann]

returner,

You did not have a risk of hiv infection. All you have is a bad case of the guilts. How do I know? Because you said:

Monday I went back to same massage parlor. Different woman this time. I shouldn't have done it. It's expensive. I'm alos married so it's cheating. Something inside me just said, "Do it one last time. Just be careful." I've now learned I can't do such things. It triggers too much guilt and anxiety.

You didn't have a risk of hiv infection by any stretch of the imagination. Perhaps it's time to seek some support via face-to-face counseling for your anxious feelings of guilt. We cannot help you with that here.

Ann

[returner]

All:

Yesterday I tested negative approximately 14 weeks after my perceived risk.

I am very relieved. I am also very appreciative of those here who answered my questions and who put up with me and who continue to put up with people like me. Words cannot express how much you help us.

I only wish I would have completely accepted all of your sage advice instead of just using it when I need comfort from my silly fears.

To those of you who can't accept the advice here: get the face-to-face help the people advised. Don't be like me. Don't waste three months of your life. You can't get that time back.

Again, thanks 

Returner (who plans on never again putting myself in a situation where I might be tempted to come back)  

2006 Graduate of Aidsmeds School of Lessons Learned

[returner]

Yes, I’m an idiot. I went back to the place about two week ago that twice has given more than a little anxiety. And once again, I have a concern: opening-mouth kissing.

The kiss was only about 5-10 seconds. It wasn't deep. I tasted no blood. I saw no cuts or sores. And I didn't have any cuts or sores. But there was some saliva contact.

I have looked all over the Internet and the worst I found was that its is very low risk. I have read the lessons and I have searched the archives, so I think I know what will be said here: no risk.

There may be, but I acknowledge probably not, some exenuating factors. Turns our the woman was fired last week. She apparently was often late and some nights, she just wounldn't come in at all. At least that was what one of the other women told me. I was also told that the woman I kissed claimed to be former crystal meth user. I know all this is second-hand, but my imagination put together the drug use and frequent absenses and has wondering: what if her freqent days out were due to a recent HIV infection and she kissed me just before she had ARS. That, I have learned, would spike her viral load.

Consequently, my question is, would this scenario alter the lessons or all you posts that kissing is a no-risk activity. The kiss was very short, not very wet and there was no sign of any blood. My sense is that I should move on.

What is your guidance?

Thank you in adavance. I'm sorry for returning again.

 

[Ann]

Return,

You've been coming to this website for years now, and you're trying to tell me that you have yet to learn that kissing is NOT a risk for hiv infection?

Don't even bother coming back with any what-iffs or whys. If you haven't learned by now, you're never going to.


Ann

[returner]

Ann

Thanks for the tone and sustance of your response. A good slap in the face is helpful sometimes.