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Author Topic: "I'd rather have HIV than Diabetes"  (Read 27657 times)

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Offline Delby

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"I'd rather have HIV than Diabetes"
« on: April 16, 2014, 05:40:43 am »
Just come across this interesting article from a London based Doctor who claims that he would much rather than Diabetes than HIV.

What do you think?

http://www.spectator.co.uk/features/9185591/why-id-rather-have-hiv-than-diabetes/

Delby :)

Offline emeraldize

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Re: "I'd rather have HIV than Diabetes"
« Reply #1 on: April 16, 2014, 07:25:04 am »
I've said this for years having been diagnosed in 2003. Pre-HAART, however, I would not have said it. 

Watching friends and children diagnosed with diabetes caused me to consider HIV a lesser of disease evils. Thank you for posting this.

Offline YellowFever

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Re: "I'd rather have HIV than Diabetes"
« Reply #2 on: April 16, 2014, 08:19:49 am »
Quote
The news about our incredible progress against HIV is only whispered about because there are concerns that if it is emphasised, then people will no longer take care to avoid infection. The HIV charities, full of older gay men who were mobilised by watching their friends and partners die of the disease in the 1980s and 1990s, are left woefully out of touch with the new realities of the disease. For them, HIV will always be the ogre lurking in the shadows, and so any attempt to put it within a wider context of chronic diseases is met with howls about insensitivity or recklessness. They still rely on mobilising outdated fears about the disease to promote safe sex in a way that, for example, diabetes charities never do about eating a healthy diet. By following this old strategy, they inadvertently help to perpetuate the stigma that those with the infection face.

All you psychologically-scarred oldies, please take note!
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Offline Theyer

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Re: "I'd rather have HIV than Diabetes"
« Reply #3 on: April 16, 2014, 09:02:17 am »
Thank you so much for pointing that paragraph out to me Yellowfever, illuminating in so many ways.

Personally I would preferr to not have either condition , or to have Doctors who argue there valid position in such a manner.

Still the process off Bargaining is well known when people are under extreme stress.

These are just me immediate thoughts , I want to read the article a few times and consider it fully before making further comments.

Michael. 56 years old living with my little ole aidsey waysee since 1993.
"If we can find the money to kill people, we can find the money to help people ."  Tony Benn

Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: "I'd rather have HIV than Diabetes"
« Reply #4 on: April 16, 2014, 09:22:22 am »
Keep in mind that when a medical doctor makes such a statement it's parochial in the sense of clinical treatment, discounting the mental health aspects and stigma of each disease.

I'll put it this way -- have you ever heard of someone's family forcing a diabetic patient to eat off of paper plates and disposable plastic forks when visiting their home? Yes, I still hear such stories in support groups for people with HIV, even in 2014.

However, it is true that with some people and type-2 diabetes there is a "blame the victim" mindset, but I can't imagine it approaches the level of HIV where it effects intimate relationships because it is sexually transmissible.

The bottom line is I don't think doctors making statements like that are helping anyone -- it's like the "HIV is manageable" statement. Sure, it's manageable for most people but it's still wildly not so for others. Doctors are still jumping beyond what they know, because even for someone who just began HIV treatment in the past five years with what are considered less toxic "good drugs" they do not know what effects they will have 25 years down the road.

Kindest regards,

Cranky Gay Ogre
"I’ve slept with enough men to know that I’m not gay"

Offline Jeff G

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Re: "I'd rather have HIV than Diabetes"
« Reply #5 on: April 16, 2014, 09:41:52 am »
I agree with Miss P and do not disagree with most of whats was said by the other posters .

I have diabetes and would rather keep it than the HIV, as if I have a choice LOL  ... saying diabetes is worse than HIV is flippant but only meant to show how far HIV treatment has come, once successfully treated HIV is less intrusive from day to day on how we go about our business .

I have to constantly monitor and inject insulin as well as fret about food choices every time I eat . That may not sound like allot but it truly is a bitch to keep up and I end up feeling like I need to do better every single day ... its a nagging constant condition that never relents . When I travel or go see friends I look at my food choices and its rarely adequate and I am left to sigh and say I will do better tomorrow . I could also write pages about what a clusterf**k HIV is . 

I also grabbed the wrong vial the other day and overdosed on insulin and had to call  911 ... it was very embarrassing . I had come back from a trip and not separated my quick and long acting insulin as I usually do and got myself in trouble .

Its apples and oranges but I do see bits of truth in both points of view .       
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Offline AusShep

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Re: "I'd rather have HIV than Diabetes"
« Reply #6 on: April 16, 2014, 09:46:56 am »
All you psychologically-scarred oldies, please take note!

The guy is a psychiatrist, so I guess that paragraph shouldn't be a surprise, but I entirely disagree with it.  The early Act Up, Silence = Death, etc. protests served their purposes.  But now everything I see is related to know your status, testing and outreach, and the old rich gay guys funding the doctors and clinics that provide services for those without insurance or who can't afford treatment otherwise.

Also, I find the article rather useless in the same sense as debating if breast or colon cancer is worse.  Either one sucks if you have it, having both sucks more...

Offline buginme2

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Re: "I'd rather have HIV than Diabetes"
« Reply #7 on: April 16, 2014, 05:31:56 pm »
I don't like some of the language this guy uses. 

But, does he have a point about the HIV community perpetuating its own stigma by continuing to use outdated fears about the disease to promote safe sex? 

I need to sit on that awhile.  Maybe?
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Offline mecch

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Re: "I'd rather have HIV than Diabetes"
« Reply #8 on: April 16, 2014, 05:47:57 pm »
Also, I find the article rather useless in the same sense as debating if breast or colon cancer is worse.  Either one sucks if you have it, having both sucks more...
This.

For some reason, I am reminded of a great scene in Bonfire of the Vanities back from 1990 but about the 80s:

Sherman McCoy: I want you to meet Aubrey Buffing.

Judy McCoy: Who?

Sherman McCoy: Aubrey Buffing. The poet. He's on the short list for the Nobel Prize, he has AIDS, you'll love him!

Judy McCoy: Sherman, we are standing alone in the middle of the room, a married couple talking to each other. You simply don't do it. Go on and mingle! Please.
“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

Offline drewm

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Re: "I'd rather have HIV than Diabetes"
« Reply #9 on: April 16, 2014, 06:00:23 pm »
My ID doc in Houston said basically the same thing. He was not being flippant IMHO but rather was explaining to someone newly diagnosed how far HIV treatment has come over the years. Poor choice of words, description? Perhaps but I take disease seriously and just feel fortunate to live in the HAART generation.
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Offline Jeff G

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Re: "I'd rather have HIV than Diabetes"
« Reply #10 on: April 16, 2014, 06:04:58 pm »
I suppose I should only speak for myself a gay man who is a LTS  . I am having a hard grasping what it is that some of us old LTS are accused of not getting, not that its about me or personal , it does not ring true to me and seems more of an assumption than something real . 

30 years is a long time and I think a lot of this is simply generational angst .
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Offline RapidRod

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Re: "I'd rather have HIV than Diabetes"
« Reply #11 on: April 16, 2014, 06:07:56 pm »
Yes, I would rather have HIV than Diabetes only if I had to make a choice. Amputations don't interest me, nor going blind, which I know can happen with HIV, but not as often as it does with Diabetes.

Offline Joe K

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Re: "I'd rather have HIV than Diabetes"
« Reply #12 on: April 16, 2014, 06:21:07 pm »
Interesting article and while I agree that using fear to prevent HIV, is long past its expiration date, in some ways what other options do we really have?  Unless your government, is willing to commit to the billions of dollars required, to medicate an ever increasing number of poz folks, your best bet is to reduce infection rates.  Parts of this article seem like apples to oranges.

The apples: Nobody debates that the state of HIV care in 2014 is light years from where we started, but who is going to pay for it all?  We now prescribe Truvada, not an inexpensive drug, to folks who want to avoid HIV infection?  Great idea, but at what cost?  Personally, I find the idea of taxing a medical system, for a drug to prevent HIV to be unwise.  It takes dollars from actual poz folks and at what point does the system begin to crumble.

When folks tell me that some of my ideals are old fashioned, I do not take offense, however I have seen what happens when you have way too much need and not enough resources to cover everyone.  We are facing a different century in terms of HIV resources and there is only so long, that the US can subsidize HIV drug development for worldwide distribution, until cracks start to appear.

As for the oranges, HOW we do HIV prevention is a totally different conversation and folks have been massaging those messages for decades.  But the reality has changed.  What do you tell someone, to get them to use protection, when they also hear that HIV is no big deal, just a couple of pills and all is good?  Better yet, if you are negative, you can take a drug that will all but make you immune to HIV.

Really?  Is this the message we want to send?  IT IS the message we send and then we get folks who complain that prevention measures are no longer working. 

It is not that the prevention messages do not work, it is because we have removed any fear of HIV, that cannot be cured with a couple of pills.

Joe

Offline Theyer

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Re: "I'd rather have HIV than Diabetes"
« Reply #13 on: April 16, 2014, 06:45:13 pm »
Yes, I would rather have HIV than Diabetes only if I had to make a choice. Amputations don't interest me, nor going blind, which I know can happen with HIV, but not as often as it does with Diabetes.

Perhaps the article will also make some more sense with this info. The Spectater is a Tory mag , that hates money spent on anything other than diplomacy, defence . HIV really collects so much they enjoy poking at . Read the comments and that also helps put it in its context.

I also dislike articles that referr to research but do not note the research .

We are not told what the Doctor,s present job is and his references to his past HIV work experience could be his 6 month training rotation .

I have no disagreement with the fantastic advances but am confused why they are often linked to a attack on Long Term Survivors and the fact that some folk are ill . How inconvenient , such bad manners to hang around ill , spoiling the Party with our ill bodies and histories so so un now .

Please correct me if I am wrong but is not one off the features off HIV is its ability to mutate.

Lastly the article really only is relevent for us members off the rich world. But that's all the Spectator see all else is inconvenient and dam inconsiderate off them. G & T .s all round darlings.
"If we can find the money to kill people, we can find the money to help people ."  Tony Benn

Offline zach

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Re: "I'd rather have HIV than Diabetes"
« Reply #14 on: April 16, 2014, 07:34:47 pm »
thats helpful for perspective theyer. we have the same thing here. fox news, reich wing conservative bias on all their reporting. not much middle, moderate media here. all too far left or right. i just try to boil it all down and see what remains.

i would rather have hiv than hep c. my mother is in rough shape, me not so much. even with recent trials. i would take it all on from her if i could.

and... this, is so true. i hate this feeling, it has added to my reclusive nature

"How inconvenient, such bad manners to hang around ill, spoiling the Party with our ill bodies and histories so so un now."
« Last Edit: April 16, 2014, 07:50:44 pm by zach »

Offline idee

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Re: "I'd rather have HIV than Diabetes"
« Reply #15 on: April 16, 2014, 08:21:00 pm »
Just come across this interesting article from a London based Doctor who claims that he would much rather than Diabetes than HIV.

What do you think?

http://www.spectator.co.uk/features/9185591/why-id-rather-have-hiv-than-diabetes/

Delby :)

[color=green I agree with this doctor's opinion.
 I have literally said "I'd rather have HIV than Diabetes" in 2006 after my mom was told she had Diabetes. My mom tried to compare her disease to mine and said Diabetes was not as bad since it is not an STD. Occasionally she goes into a coma type sleep for 10-24 hours after one meal of rich foods. All four of us kids had to take turns checking on my mom while she slept. Yet I am the one with HIV. I do not have any related illnesses, thank goodness. My mom has had her share of complications, she sees four different specialists and a physician. She still only takes oral meds for her Diabetes, but also takes meds for her heart, kidney, lungs (inhalants), and liver. Her best friend also has Diabetes and lost her foot to a blood clot. They have acted like it is nothing compared to my HIV virus in an attempt to make me feel bad, but they are more annoyed by the fact I was suppose to die of AIDs back in '96 or '97. I was not given long when I first saw a doctor. The dumb part of my mom's comments about my catching HIV is she does not think before speaking. I was infected by the first man I was with, I never had been with anyone before him and we were engaged. My mom was warned repeatedly about the possibility of becoming a Diabetic since they performed many types of tests periodically after her first heart attack.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2014, 08:23:59 pm by idee »

Offline idee

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Re: "I'd rather have HIV than Diabetes"
« Reply #16 on: April 16, 2014, 08:37:47 pm »
Keep in mind that when a medical doctor makes such a statement it's parochial in the sense of clinical treatment, discounting the mental health aspects and stigma of each disease.

I'll put it this way -- have you ever heard of someone's family forcing a diabetic patient to eat off of paper plates and disposable plastic forks when visiting their home? Yes, I still hear such stories in support groups for people with HIV, even in 2014.

However, it is true that with some people and type-2 diabetes there is a "blame the victim" mindset, but I can't imagine it approaches the level of HIV where it effects intimate relationships because it is sexually transmissible.

The bottom line is I don't think doctors making statements like that are helping anyone -- it's like the "HIV is manageable" statement. Sure, it's manageable for most people but it's still wildly not so for others. Doctors are still jumping beyond what they know, because even for someone who just began HIV treatment in the past five years with what are considered less toxic "good drugs" they do not know what effects they will have 25 years down the road.

Kindest regards,

Cranky Gay Ogre

I have lived  long enough with the virus to see I currently have no side effects I was told I might have. I liked this article since it is something in support for us HIV infected people.
I understand your point. It took almost nineteen years, but my littlest sister stopped following me around with bleach-sponge or Clorox wipes when I use the bathroom. She now eats what I cook as well off of dishes I washed. My relationship is good with my two younger sisters. I enjoy my life today. I thank people who stand up for us like this doctor who made this statement.

Offline zach

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Re: "I'd rather have HIV than Diabetes"
« Reply #17 on: April 16, 2014, 09:26:34 pm »
lol, i cut myself chopping some veggies the other night. i sprayed the floor with simple green, wiped it up with a paper towel, and went on cooking... my father came behind me with clorox, mopped the whole damn kitchen like a super fund site. at first i was offended, then just figured whatever floats your boat, the floor is clean now

Offline Jeff G

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Re: "I'd rather have HIV than Diabetes"
« Reply #18 on: April 16, 2014, 09:39:17 pm »
I had an uncle that was scared my aids was going to slither up upon him and the whole family myself included used to have fun at his expense . Men in my family ( except me ) never hug other men . When I would see my uncle come in I would walk towards him hacking and coughing for a hug so we could all watch him turn green .
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Offline zach

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Re: "I'd rather have HIV than Diabetes"
« Reply #19 on: April 16, 2014, 10:49:07 pm »
i can't remember ever hugging my father, or either of us telling the other "i love you"

Offline emeraldize

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Re: "I'd rather have HIV than Diabetes"
« Reply #20 on: April 16, 2014, 11:14:11 pm »
I had an uncle that was scared my aids was going to slither up upon him and the whole family myself included used to have fun at his expense . Men in my family ( except me ) never hug other men . When I would see my uncle come in I would walk towards him hacking and coughing for a hug so we could all watch him turn green .

Had to be hard to keep a straight face. I would just eventually lose it.

Offline Joe K

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Re: "I'd rather have HIV than Diabetes"
« Reply #21 on: April 16, 2014, 11:15:45 pm »
i can't remember ever hugging my father, or either of us telling the other "i love you"

Zach,

Me neither... and I know we were both poorer because of it.

Joe

Offline tednlou2

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Re: "I'd rather have HIV than Diabetes"
« Reply #22 on: April 17, 2014, 12:12:20 am »
I have heard many say that.  And, I've thought about that.  If Morgan Freeman showed up and said I had a choice, I'm not sure what I would do. 

I did just read this response from Dr. Gallant.  A medical student asked how he would counsel someone newly diagnosed.  I began thinking he's right.  But, how many pozzies will eventually get all the ailments he lists as far worse, which can be linked to the virus or meds?  So, they have HIV on top of the others.  I suspect, from the minimal knowledge I have, that those issues happen primarily to those who took the very toxic meds of the past and all those who barely made it for HAART, where their bodies had already suffered so much damage?? 

"As an HIV doctor, the patients who come to me have already been informed of their diagnosis by someone else.  The important thing in counseling someone who has just been diagnosed with HIV infection is to remember that the emotional implications may be greater than the medical ones.

Medically, you could argue that it would be worse to have diabetes, rheumatoid arthritis, or a cardiomyopathy than to have HIV infection. We can treat HIV effectively with just one pill per day, often with little to on impact on quality of life or life expectancy.  The same cannot be said for those three diseases, or many other chronic medical conditions,

However, people who find out they’re HIV-positive may react much more emotionally to their diagnosis than they would with other chronic diseases.  They may be experiencing shame or guilt over having acquired a preventable disease.  They may be angry at the person who infected them. They may be worried about confidentiality because of the stigma associated with HIV infection and the risk behaviors that result in infection. Finally, they may have fears based on an outdated understanding of the prognosis for HIV-positive people.

You can deal with some of these emotions through education: teaching them that the treatment for HIV disease is much easier and the prognosis far better than in the 80’s and 90’s.  It can be a lot harder to deal with shame, guilt, anger and fear of stigma in a single counseling session.  Ongoing counseling or support groups can be very helpful, especially for people who don’t have good support among their own family and friends."

Offline harleymc

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Re: "I'd rather have HIV than Diabetes"
« Reply #23 on: April 17, 2014, 02:43:06 am »
Never known diabetes to be criminalised the same way being HIV poz is.

Never read a personal advert saying 'diabetes negative UB2'.

As for a lot of the rest, having HIV strongly influences when and what I eat, my exercise regime, making sure I get the right amount of sleep, disclosure issues mandated by law, neuropathy, extra work mediating depression, extra monitoring for non Aids defining cancers and so forth...

I'm not saying diabetes is simple but HIV is not as simple as taking a pill. Just because we've become accustomed to the routine doesn't mean that it a walk in the park.

Offline Delby

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Re: "I'd rather have HIV than Diabetes"
« Reply #24 on: April 17, 2014, 08:01:53 am »
Here's a reply to the article posted yesterday:

http://gma.yahoo.com/uk-doctor-id-rather-hiv-diabetes-202131253.html

I think it's a very dangerous, pointless and unmeasured statement to make. There are too many variants such as age, socio-economic class, country of living, length of time  since diagnosis, treatment time etc to be able to make such a wide and sweeping statement that 'Diabetes is worse than HIV'.

Also, I do not believe that a person, regardless of whether they are a Doctor or not, have the moral right or authority to make a statement on which disease is worse, if that person is not living with either disease. How can he draw such conclusions? Is this from experience with living with either or both disease. The answer is no.

So any assumptions are just that - 'an assumption'. It's not factual. Both diseases are extremely nasty. I live with HIV and also bare witness to my brother that also lives with Type 1 diabetes. It too is an awful disease. He has to contend with Hypos, collapsing on the street or in public and going into a fit. It's awful. I would say on a day to day basis diabetes is far more intrusive. However, if you interview someone contending with the ravages of HIV disease, he could argue HIV is worse.

I'm not here to make judgement. After all, it's a pointless exercise. But what I will agree with is that HIV is more manageable now than it was 15 years ago. Things have improved, but what remains to be seen is whilst we may live longer, what will the quality of our lives be? That's what matters to most - quality. I don't want to live longer if it means i'll be hooked up to tubes and living in a bed.

All we can hope for is that as time goes on, we will see more improvements in HIV treatment. Until then, these articles are 'sensational' at best and don't serve any purpose apart from maybe giving us HIVers that we can live a long and normal life hopefully.

Delby :)

Offline wolfter

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Re: "I'd rather have HIV than Diabetes"
« Reply #25 on: April 17, 2014, 08:43:56 am »
I'd rather have a puppy.   ;)

Being honest is not wronging others, continuing the dishonesty is.

Offline YellowFever

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Re: "I'd rather have HIV than Diabetes"
« Reply #26 on: April 17, 2014, 10:12:52 am »
Unless your government, is willing to commit to the billions of dollars required, to medicate an ever increasing number of poz folks, your best bet is to reduce infection rates.  Parts of this article seem like apples to oranges.

I think 2018 will be a watershed moment for this, assuming we don't all become resistant to Atripla or Truvada. Generic Atripla will become as cheap as USD400/year and Truvada for PEP could be as cheap as USD25/month (currently that's what the Thais pay). Hopefully that should convince governments (other than just the UK) that running 'test and treat' campaigns are much more cost effective than running 'scare and prevent' campaigns. It is already shown scientifically that PEP does work, and viral load supression does prevent HIV infections.

In the long run, govs won't actually need to 'medicate an ever increasing number of poz folks'. Putting everyone on medication and PEP should keep the number of poz folks stable.
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05/2015 CD4 420 VL 2500
08/2015 CD4 460 VL UD
03/2016 CD4 500 VL UD
08/2016 CD4 410 VL 4467

Offline Theyer

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Re: "I'd rather have HIV than Diabetes"
« Reply #27 on: April 17, 2014, 12:50:50 pm »
[quote author=YellowFever link=topic=53585.msg632219#msg632219 date=1397743972

In the long run, govs won't actually need to 'medicate an ever increasing number of poz folks'. Putting everyone on medication and PEP should keep the number of poz folks stable.
[/quote]

???????
Can you expand on this please.
"If we can find the money to kill people, we can find the money to help people ."  Tony Benn

Offline Theyer

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Re: "I'd rather have HIV than Diabetes"
« Reply #28 on: April 17, 2014, 12:57:45 pm »
Pemberton could not be reached .....by ABC--------silly billies should off said they where a new Private Patient.
"If we can find the money to kill people, we can find the money to help people ."  Tony Benn

Offline zach

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Re: "I'd rather have HIV than Diabetes"
« Reply #29 on: April 17, 2014, 01:53:07 pm »
In the long run, govs won't actually need to 'medicate an ever increasing number of poz folks'. Putting everyone on medication and PEP should keep the number of poz folks stable.

this statement seems somewhat contradictory. governments wont need to medicate more pozzies, instead medicate everyone? indefinitely? am i taking your quote out of context?

you can't possibly see a future where everyone is taking ARVs all the time, regardless of status?! jeez, here in america there is a huge backlash against simple vaccinations. people have forgotten mumps, polio, etc. all because of some bunk story back in the 80s about vaccines, mercury, and autism. and jenny mccarthy's nice rack is so distracting

i just don't see everyone agreeing to be medicated as prophylaxis. nor do i see the need. thats not the right answer.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2014, 01:56:06 pm by zach »

Offline leatherman

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Re: "I'd rather have HIV than Diabetes"
« Reply #30 on: April 17, 2014, 02:29:04 pm »
Generic Atripla will become as cheap as USD400/year and Truvada for PEP could be as cheap as USD25/month
never going to happen in the American economy. Our new insurance-for-everyone healthcare reform will always pay top dollar.

Your numbers are still high anyway. ;) I'm hoping one day America will get that 88 cents a day treatment that Bono/Red/One is always touting. LOL

are much more cost effective than running 'scare and prevent' campaigns.
'scare and prevent' campaigns have already done wonders with tobacco usage reduction and HIV prevention, so don't diss them out of hand. How do you think America got down to 50K new infections a yr? One method was "scare" campaigns which did quite well ;)
leatherman (aka Michael)

We were standing all alone
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Offline Jeff G

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Re: "I'd rather have HIV than Diabetes"
« Reply #31 on: April 17, 2014, 02:51:36 pm »
I do not see it as scare campaign's, I see facts being offered . The new meds and testing technology's are great innovations but we already see folks showing up poz from using oraquick test to test tricks and serosort not knowing the limitations and window periods have given some people false sense of security .

Also ... I have heard people start to say since treatment is prevention and undetectable means no transmission do I still have to talk about HIV . These are tools in an arsenal of treatment and prevention and not a path back into the closet .     
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Offline buginme2

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Re: "I'd rather have HIV than Diabetes"
« Reply #32 on: April 17, 2014, 03:26:06 pm »
. How do you think America got down to 50K new infections a yr? One method was "scare" campaigns which did quite well ;)

the US got down to 50k new infections twenty years ago.  We have remained at 50k per year since then.  The scare campaign has not worked.  If it had the numbers would be dropping. 

Whats the big deal that he said Diabetes is worse than HIV? 

Are you afraid that your disease will be thought less of?  I dont get the backlash.  What are you (generic you) afraid of or angry about? 

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Offline Theyer

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Re: "I'd rather have HIV than Diabetes"
« Reply #33 on: April 17, 2014, 03:55:31 pm »
the US got down to 50k new infections twenty years ago.  We have remained at 50k per year since then.  The scare campaign has not worked.  If it had the numbers would be dropping. 

Whats the big deal that he said Diabetes is worse than HIV? 

Are you afraid that your disease will be thought less of?  I dont get the backlash.  What are you (generic you) afraid of or angry about?


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Offline leatherman

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Re: "I'd rather have HIV than Diabetes"
« Reply #34 on: April 17, 2014, 04:25:29 pm »
The scare campaign has not worked.
sure it did. that's what helped it get down to 50k a yr. It's just not the panacea for the problem. scare tactics still need to be used because they prevent some people (yes, not all; but there is no one solution to reach ALL people) from getting infected.

all "just say no" campaigns work to some extent. Just not enough to change the behavior of all people. That doesn't mean "just say no" doesn't work or that it should be discontinued. Don't throw the baby out with the bath water for goodness sake.

It's like the PrEP/truvada "controversy". there is NO controversy. PrEP clearly will help. So will TasP (treatment as prevention). Neither one should be ruled out and both should be used. Just don't expect either one alone to solve the issue.
leatherman (aka Michael)

We were standing all alone
You were leaning in to speak to me
Acting like a mover shaker
Dancing to Madonna then you kissed me
And I think about it all the time
- Darren Hayes, "Chained to You"

Offline buginme2

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Re: "I'd rather have HIV than Diabetes"
« Reply #35 on: April 17, 2014, 04:56:44 pm »
I agree, I just personally dislike the scare campaign so much.  And, as the author of the article points out, I agree that it has contributed to the stigma associated with HIV.

However, unlike the author, I think it's more complicated.  The fact that it affected mostly gay men really set the ball rolling in marginalizing those affected with HIV that someone affected with say Diabetes isn't.  That wasn't touched in the article.

I wish he titled his article differently.  He brings up some good points in how hiv is approached differently than other diseases that adds to its stigma (including scare tactics still used today).  But, some of the message gets lost in personal comparisons.

Don't be fancy, just get dancey

Offline emeraldize

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Re: "I'd rather have HIV than Diabetes"
« Reply #36 on: April 17, 2014, 05:16:53 pm »
However, unlike the author, I think it's more complicated.  The fact that it affected mostly gay men really set the ball rolling in marginalizing those affected with HIV that someone affected with say Diabetes isn't.  That wasn't touched in the article.

I wish he titled his article differently.  He brings up some good points in how hiv is approached differently than other diseases that adds to its stigma (including scare tactics still used today).  But, some of the message gets lost in personal comparisons.
Agreed.

Offline bocker3

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Re: "I'd rather have HIV than Diabetes"
« Reply #37 on: April 17, 2014, 05:49:23 pm »
I think this is all rather silly, I mean I'd rather eat an orange than an apple says nothing about the taste, texture, etc of either fruit and really means nothing at the end of the day.  Same thing for HIV vs. Diabetes.  People do well with either and people die from both.
Besides -- why would one need to choose??  who the hell chooses anyways......

Although, as for the "scare" campaign -- not a fan of it.  What is needed is transparency.  Living with HIV isn't what it used to be for most folks who have consistent access to HAART, but it still kills and it still disrupts lives in any number of ways - more so for some than others.  Same for Diabetes.  Same for lots of other "chronic illnesses".

I do question, though, whether it is the scare campaign that has maintained the 50K new cases per year for the last 20 yrs.  HAART has been here and "improved" in that time, so, in theory, cases should have come down more, but they haven't.  It's not as simple as saying "scare campaign works" -- it DID work at one time (there weren't many other options), is it working now?  Not sure we can parse that out given the impact of treatment.  Without successful treatment, would we still be at 50K/yr - I have my doubts?

Mike

Offline mecch

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Re: "I'd rather have HIV than Diabetes"
« Reply #38 on: April 17, 2014, 06:24:11 pm »
I agree with bocker basically its apples and oranges and people should understand and live well with both, without ranking.
Also the poster above who spoke about colon vs. breast cancer. I mean WTF.
HIV+ people and public health workers and epidemiologist can explain living with HIV 2014 and really there is no need to rank diseases. 
That said, I'm sure doctors would like to calm the panic and give perspective, and comparisons of diseases in a doctor's mindset is probably pretty different than for us laymen.
“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

Offline wolfter

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Re: "I'd rather have HIV than Diabetes"
« Reply #39 on: April 17, 2014, 09:51:29 pm »
I'd still rather have a puppy plus I'm still focusing on trying which to remember which Golden Girl I am.  OH YEAH, obviously Blanche.  :)

Being honest is not wronging others, continuing the dishonesty is.

Offline pittman

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Re: "I'd rather have HIV than Diabetes"
« Reply #40 on: April 17, 2014, 10:03:57 pm »
Looking at HIV clinically, I think it's pretty easy to see how a doctor (or anyone for that matter) may reasonably state it can be "preferable" over some other conditions, especially when caught early and treated following current recommendations:

  • it's got an effective treatment
  • the treatment is generally simple
  • expected life span is pretty much normal
  • there is relatively few if any (physical) limitations caused by it

Of course we are more than just our physical selves, metaphorically speaking. We have emotional selves, and live in the social context of society.  We must be able to afford treatment, adjust to stigma, and deal with all the non-clinical aspects of living with a disease that is associated with sexual transmission, drug use, and the gay community, even if you are not gay.

In this aspect, I think HIV can be more difficult. I just don't view that as caused by the disease as much as by society. As always, individual experience may vary in both the clinical outcomes as well as in the emotional ones. But on the whole, I think the above is true.

It further caries into other aspects.

The very same reasons that HIV carries stigma, plagues the effectiveness of prevention programs.  Abstinence programs have poor results in avoiding pregnancy and STDs. One of the most common findings is that "participants" are still sexually active in high numbers, but don't plan on using protection because that would be planning on "failing".  Yet proponents of abstinence programs often say that promoting condom use is promoting sex.

Similarly, PrEP faces many challengers who say it promotes condomless ("unsafe") sex.  Like those teens who may try to take steps to protect themselves, they are "slut shamed".

In both cases, they are not after better outcomes based on data, they are actually after enforcing behavior.  The two are not the same and when policy analysis is done I think that is clear.

Offline bocker3

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Re: "I'd rather have HIV than Diabetes"
« Reply #41 on: April 17, 2014, 10:07:15 pm »
I'd still rather have a puppy plus I'm still focusing on trying which to remember which Golden Girl I am.  OH YEAH, obviously Blanche.  :)

I thought you said you were from St. Olaf?? 

 ;D

M

Offline bocker3

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Re: "I'd rather have HIV than Diabetes"
« Reply #42 on: April 17, 2014, 10:21:50 pm »
Looking at HIV clinically, I think it's pretty easy to see how a doctor (or anyone for that matter) may reasonably state it can be "preferable" over some other conditions, especially when caught early and treated following current recommendations:

  • it's got an effective treatment
  • the treatment is generally simple
  • expected life span is pretty much normal
  • there is relatively few if any (physical) limitations caused by it


Yet here is the flaw in this logic. 

Everything you state may be true in general, it is not universally true for any particular person.
 
Effective treatment is NOT available for everyone -- WHO estimates 1.6 million died in 2012.
"Simple" treatment doesn't matter if it isn't available
Lifespan is theoretical at this point -- HIV hasn't been around, with effective treatment to say that with surety.
Many folks have limitations due to HIV and/or it's treatment.  (HIV related diarrhea comes to mind, as do diet restrictions for folks dealing with high lipids from treatment)

There is no "reasonable" comparisons between chronic diseases at the individual level, IMO.  It's all hogwash -- the actual preferred choice is "I'll choose NEITHER", thank you very much.

Again -- what is the point of comparison??  it's a "feel good" thing that actually doesn't hold true for everyone.

M

Offline leatherman

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Re: "I'd rather have HIV than Diabetes"
« Reply #43 on: April 17, 2014, 11:20:26 pm »
Similarly, PrEP faces many challengers who say it promotes condomless ("unsafe") sex.  Like those teens who may try to take steps to protect themselves, they are "slut shamed".
except the CDC is now promoting it as "condomless sex" - but is now nuanced into "protected" condomless sex (UD and/or PrEP) and "unprotected" condomless sex.
http://www.hivplusmag.com/research/2014/02/13/cdc-stop-using-unprotected-sex-condomless-sex

It's no wonder some people are ridiculed as being sluts when PrEP allows someone to have a "safe" version of bareback sex. (using condoms AND PrEP seems like overkill) It seems that promoting condomless sex as safe sex would make the prevention message much more confusing for the uneducated layperson.
leatherman (aka Michael)

We were standing all alone
You were leaning in to speak to me
Acting like a mover shaker
Dancing to Madonna then you kissed me
And I think about it all the time
- Darren Hayes, "Chained to You"

Offline zach

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Re: "I'd rather have HIV than Diabetes"
« Reply #44 on: April 17, 2014, 11:52:45 pm »
the whole concept of prep confuses the hell out of me.

Offline leatherman

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Re: "I'd rather have HIV than Diabetes"
« Reply #45 on: April 18, 2014, 12:16:32 am »
the whole concept of prep confuses the hell out of me.
PrEP - pre exposure prophylaxis
taking ARVs before you are exposed to HIV can prevent you from becoming infected

PEP - post exposure prophylaxis
taking ARVs immediately after you have been exposed to HIV can prevent you from becoming infected

TasP - treatment as prevention
people infected with HIV and on successful treatment (undetectable) are not infectious which prevents others from being infected
leatherman (aka Michael)

We were standing all alone
You were leaning in to speak to me
Acting like a mover shaker
Dancing to Madonna then you kissed me
And I think about it all the time
- Darren Hayes, "Chained to You"

Offline xinyuan

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Re: "I'd rather have HIV than Diabetes"
« Reply #46 on: April 18, 2014, 12:25:47 am »
There is no "reasonable" comparisons between chronic diseases at the individual level, IMO.  It's all hogwash -- the actual preferred choice is "I'll choose NEITHER", thank you very much.

Again -- what is the point of comparison??  it's a "feel good" thing that actually doesn't hold true for everyone.


For an individual patient, I agree. For us, comparisons of what poison to choose make little sense.

From an economic perspective, the cost of managing diabetes and its complications would eclipse that of HIV. If it weren't for the cost of ART's. We can blame pharma partially for that, even after accounting for recovering research costs.

http://www.surgeongeneral.gov/initiatives/prevention/strategy/appendix1.pdf

From a doctor's perspective, it's a sad game. But one played commonly by health professionals. My take: at least it shows some progress in the medical community's perspective on HIV as a chronic, and not fatal, disease. It also reflects on how much more frequent diabetes is seen by doctors in hospitals. And how much more poorly diabetics do (Google diabetes and hospital morbidity or mortality).

Lastly, not all diabetics and HIV are created equal. As are their different stages / severity. There will always be extremes.



And let's face it. As patients, we care mainly about what happens to ourselves.

Offline zach

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Re: "I'd rather have HIV than Diabetes"
« Reply #47 on: April 18, 2014, 12:39:31 am »
leather, i understand what it is... just not really the thinking behind it. it was a throwaway comment, i probably shouldn't have posted

prep, by definition, is choosing to have unprotected sex with a positive partner. relying on a med, and UD VL statistics, to have the increased "intimacy?" of bareback sex? i don't judge those that do, consenting adults so game on. twisted logic to me, its seems an unhealthy way of thinking

this sort of touches on something that has been talked about in another thread. are some people really advocating neggies to go on meds, permanently?

Offline mecch

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Re: "I'd rather have HIV than Diabetes"
« Reply #48 on: April 18, 2014, 05:36:25 am »
this sort of touches on something that has been talked about in another thread. are some people really advocating neggies to go on meds, permanently?

Sure. Some doctors and epidemiologists think its reasonable for "populations at risk" to take PreP.  That is to say gay men who have a lot of sex, lot of partners, and don't always use condoms, for example.  Also, doctors prescribe PreP to people in relationships with HIV+ partners, for a few different reasons.

But maybe you meant, by permanently - like forever.  In that case I'm with you I haven't heard and buzz on PreP being a permanent thing. I thought to date it was situational.   I suppose it could be years and years depending on the individual situation.

But maybe its another thread. Its controversial and needs talking out when it comes up in conversation.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2014, 05:38:29 am by mecch »
“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

Offline YellowFever

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Re: "I'd rather have HIV than Diabetes"
« Reply #49 on: April 18, 2014, 06:38:58 am »
I do not see it as scare campaign's, I see facts being offered . The new meds and testing technology's are great innovations but we already see folks showing up poz from using oraquick test to test tricks and serosort not knowing the limitations and window periods have given some people false sense of security .

Also ... I have heard people start to say since treatment is prevention and undetectable means no transmission do I still have to talk about HIV . These are tools in an arsenal of treatment and prevention and not a path back into the closet .   

In a 'test and treat' campaign, testing negative within the window period just means being suitable for PEP, not that they're off the hook. I also don't see why that can't be offered to people who had insignificant/zero risk encounters. At least to get the general populace used to the idea of PEP after unprotected sexual activity. Like morning after pills. Or rabies shots after dog bites. I know there's the increased risk of viral resistance and maybe more accurate tests could help. But in principle, prevention of HIV through condoms perpetuates stigma because it requires people to asses risk before the act is done, whereas PEP lets you do that after and without any confrontation. We've heard all of this before, wife asks philandering husband to use a condom and husband yells back 'What? You don't trust me??'.
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