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HIV Prevention and Testing => Do I Have HIV? => Topic started by: Doa on July 29, 2006, 08:18:01 am

Title: Your views please
Post by: Doa on July 29, 2006, 08:18:01 am
For the usual stupid reasons I ended up going back with a prostitute last night and of course I woke up this morning in a panic. Although I am not in Africa, the prostitute was from there which doesn't exactly make it any easier for me.

We didn't have any penetrative intercourse but I did finger both her vagina and anus. I don't have any cuts on the finger and from reading your page, it appears that I am not at any risk from this.

She only masturbated me but on a couple of occasions, she put what seemed like quite a lot of saliva on her hands for lubrication. Again, I cannot see any cuts on my penis but is there any possibility of infection through this? Maybe down my ureatha? Sorry if that is a stupid question.

My final and biggest worry is that on a few occasions she stuck her finger up my anus and moved it in an out fairly rigorously but not exactly roughly. Now, she actually had a condom over her fingers while she did this, but she had also been fingering herself. I can't remember when she did this but it could have been before putting her finger in my anus. Do you think that if any of her vaginal secretions had got on the outside of the condom or had come off her finger somehow, that this would present a risk of infection or not as I know that the anus is damaged easily? Are there any recorded incidents of fluids that had previously got on fingers being passed on in a similar way

Thanks so much for you comments.
Title: Re: Your views please
Post by: RapidRod on July 29, 2006, 08:23:25 am
You had safer sex and you didn't have a risk of exposure even if she was HIV+.
Title: Re: Your views please
Post by: Doa on July 29, 2006, 08:36:09 am

Thanks for your answer. It was just the chance of her vaginal secretions getting into a tear in my anus from her fingers that worrys me and I couldn't find any infomation on this type of situation anywhere.

If you don't mind, could you explain why I have no exposure from this as to me if she has fluid on her fingers then theoretically I would have thought that it could be transmitted.

Thanks
Title: Re: Your views please
Post by: RapidRod on July 29, 2006, 08:45:47 am
The fluids would be from the outer portions of the vagina not the inner cervical fluids.
Title: Re: Your views please
Post by: Andy Velez on July 29, 2006, 08:54:39 am
And please read the lesson about transmission on this site. The link to it is in the first thread in this section. Getting down with that information will inform you about protecting your health and should help to spare you a lot of unnecessary worrying.

You can have sex with anyone, whether the person is HIV+ or not, and as much of it as you want. As long as you follow the safer sex guidelines consistently you will be protected from HIV.

Cheers, 
Title: Re: Your views please
Post by: Doa on July 29, 2006, 09:16:49 am
Thanks for the response Andy and for this valuable site.

I did check the transmission lesson before I posted and it put my mind at rest about the vaginal/anal fingering. What I couldn't find though was whether fluid can be transferred from say a vagina onto someones hands and then into that or another person. They say that you shouldn't share sex toys etc and so I assume that it can be.

I'm one of the many paranoid (read: guilt ridden) people who find HIV a convenient outlet for their guilt. I know this but it doesn't stop us worrying.

RapidRon has answered me about the vaginal fluid, but do you have any further comment about the chances of this happening. I mean, does the HIV virus live outside the body for long if at all?

Thanks again.
Title: Re: Your views please
Post by: Morgan on July 29, 2006, 09:55:06 am
Quote
I'm one of the many paranoid (read: guilt ridden) people who find HIV a convenient outlet for their guilt. I know this but it doesn't stop us worrying.

Doa,

Fortunately, your risk for hiv infection is not increased by guilt or paranoia.  Nothing you describe put you at risk for hiv infection.  Really.

Continue your safer sex practices and you will avoid hiv infection.  Condoms provide excellent protection against hiv.  Use them consistently, without exception, and hiv will not be a concern for you.  It's just that easy.

Morgan
Title: Re: Your views please
Post by: Doa on July 29, 2006, 09:58:11 am

I know..... I know!  :)

Thanks for the great reply Morgan which was all true of course.
Title: Re: Your views please
Post by: Doa on July 29, 2006, 02:11:58 pm
Sorry to come back on with another question, but I was just wondering for future reference and to put me at ease now, if someone could fully explain to me how someone whose fingers have vaginal fluids (or any bodily fluids for that matter) on them, cannot somehow pass them into my bloodstream by sticking them in my anus, because it seems very possible to me?

Thanks
Title: Re: Your views please
Post by: RapidRod on July 29, 2006, 02:31:06 pm
Take the time to read the Welcome tread and it will give you the information you are looking for.
Title: Re: Your views please
Post by: Doa on July 29, 2006, 03:04:26 pm
I've read the lessons but I can't find the exact answer to my particular question.

Can I therefore check that if as it says in the lesson, that it is unlikely that there would be a risk of infection by putting a cut finger into a vagina or anus...that is is equally unlikely that being anally fingered by a finger that has vaginal fluid on it could cause an infection, even if there is a tear in the anus membrane or if the fingering causes a tear?

Sorry if I am breaking the forum rules by asking the same question, but I just need the exact answer to this to put me at ease.

Thanks
Title: Re: Your views please
Post by: RapidRod on July 29, 2006, 03:16:31 pm
You can't find it because that isn't how HIV is transmitted.
Title: Re: Your views please
Post by: Doa on July 29, 2006, 03:23:39 pm
I guess that's the answer I was looking for then.

Many thanks.
Title: Re: Your views please
Post by: Doa on July 30, 2006, 05:50:12 am
I'm sorry but I just can't get it out of my head that by possibly exposing the inside of my anus to her vaginal fluid after she masterbated herself, that there is not some level of risk as it is mucose membrane.

I'm was accepting the great advice I have received on here but then in another thread on this site I read the following paragraph, which was posted by Annn: -

http://www.aidsmeds.com/Fusetalk/messageview.cfm?catid=4&threadid=27862 (http://www.aidsmeds.com/Fusetalk/messageview.cfm?catid=4&threadid=27862)

"Note I use the term ACTIVE and not alive. technically, HIV is not alive. It cannot reproduce on it's own. It requires a very specific type of white blood cell to infect with it's genetic material and essentially turn into an HIV producing factory. These receptive cells are commonly found in the urethra, in the dendritic cells under an uncircumsized foreskin, in the anus, and in the vagina. To a far lessor degree, there are some in the tonsil area as well."


It just seems to be a little contradictive. If the girl was just an everyday girl that I met, then I wouldn't be bothered as i know that I'd be more likely to win the lottery than for her to be positive, but she was a prostitute from Africa. No idea if she worked as a prostitute in Africa as I am not actually in Africa, but I'm sure that her profession and background increases the risk of her being HIV+.

I'm just finding it hard to understand how you can be so confident that I had NO risk at all.

I am also married and so it is my Wife that I am concerned about, rather than just my own paranoia.

Thanks Guys.

Title: Re: Your views please
Post by: Ann on July 30, 2006, 06:07:28 am
Doa,

If this sex worker had a penis and put that penis, without a condom on it, in your anus, THEN you would have had a risk.

So you fingered her, so what. Hiv doesn't travel through intact skin and furthermore, even if you had a small cut, fingering is NOT a risk for hiv infection.

My partner works in the building trade and often has small cuts and abrasions on his hands. We've been together for seven years now - I am hiv positive and he is hiv negative. If fingering, cuts included, were a real risk for hiv infection, he would have been infected by now. He is hiv negative.

And so are you.

Ann
Title: Re: Your views please
Post by: Doa on July 30, 2006, 06:48:58 am
Hi Ann

Thanks for the reply but it is not actually the fact that I fingered her that is worrying me. I totally accept that that is not a method of transmission.

What is worrying me is that on at least one occasion she fingered herself and then fingered my anus. Now I can't remember if she fingered me after she had done this or even if she used the same hand. From what I can remember, she also had a condom over her finger, but I can't be sure she did that everytime.

What I am finding hard to understand is how my scenario is different to a man putting his penis inside me. It is still potentially transmitting bodily fluids that can carry the virus into my anus. How is it different rubbing semen onto the wall of the anus to rubbing vaginal fluids onto the wall - especially if the anus is able to absorb the virus as I have read on here?

I hope that I am explaining myself properly as I really don't want to keep bothering you unnecessarily with this. I just want to be clear about it in my head.

Thanks
Title: Re: Your views please
Post by: Ann on July 30, 2006, 07:23:54 am
Doa,

The difference is that the fluids you are so worried about were OUTSIDE the body before they were introduced into YOUR body. The virus is fragile and does not remain in a tranmissable state when it is exposed to an environment outside the body. When a penis is INSIDE the body, the fluids are transfered to the other person without ever being exposed to the environment. Hence, hiv is successfully transmitted INSIDE the human body as in unprotected anal or vaginal intercourse.

Ann
Title: Re: Your views please
Post by: Doa on July 30, 2006, 07:37:45 am
Even if it was mere seconds that it was exposed to the outside world? I think this is someting that many people don't realise about the virus then and why you see a lot of unnecessarily worried people on here.

I've never worried about casual contact with HIV+ people, but I just thought in my situation, the vaginal fluid was freshly exposed and then possiby directly exposed to a part of the body that accepts the virus.

So even if it was mere seconds outside the body, it would still pose no risk to me. I'll be honest, I still feel unsure about this but will try to accept what you are telling me.

Thanks
Title: Re: Your views please
Post by: Doa on July 30, 2006, 12:12:15 pm
So after taking everything you have told me on board and as I can't remember exactly what happened that night, can I just run a final worse case scenario past you to determine if you still think I have been exposed to any risk: -

If

1. The sex worker was HIV+
2. She had fresh vaginal fluids on her fingers from masturbating herself.
3. She immediately inserted her finger(s) into my anus and fingered me for a few minutes
4 There was a tear in the anus OR the mucous membrane was able to absorb the fluid.


Would that whole scenario still pose a risk for HIV infection and if so, should I take a test?

Thanks
Title: Re: Your views please
Post by: Ann on July 30, 2006, 01:35:33 pm
Doa,

No risk, no test, no kidding.

Ann
Title: Re: Your views please
Post by: AIDS2HIV on July 30, 2006, 03:48:26 pm
absolutely no risk involved in your situation*
Title: Re: Your views please
Post by: Doa on July 31, 2006, 07:59:02 am
Thanks again for both your replies.

I have another question which I apologise for if it is outside of the realms of this forum, but could I have contracted another STD by the sex worker using saliva as a masturbating lubricant or by her possibly transfering either saliva or her vaginal fluid into my anus when she was fingering me?

I'm getting worried that there may be something else lurking there that I could pass onto my Wife.

If you think it is a possiblity, what sort of symptoms should I be looking for and when do they normally appear. How long should I wait before I went for a full STD test - including Herpes, syphilis, etc to ensure that I was past every incubation period?


Thanks
Title: Re: Your views please
Post by: Ann on July 31, 2006, 08:37:37 am
Doa,

You're right, those questions are getting outside the realms of this HIV website. If you want some good information on the other STIs, go to the inSPOT (http://www.inspot.org/std-info/std-info.aspx?sitelvl=1&regionID=2) website. I want to warn you though, while their information on the OTHER STIs is very good, their hiv informations sucks. Don't bother reading it.

However, it is doubtful whether you would be infected with any other STI from this encounter and definitely NO risk of hiv infection.

Feel free to get  full STI testing done if it will put your mind at ease.

Ann
Title: Re: Your views please
Post by: Doa on August 08, 2006, 02:42:41 pm
Ann or any of the other experts on here, i need your help.

I was on here a week or so ago with the above exposure risk and you put the thought of HIV right out of my mind. As suggested in your last reply Ann, i went for a 'peace of mind' full STD check up. The doctor on Medhelp.org had also told me that there was zero risk of any STD infection from what I did.

I've just got my results back and I tested positive for Chlamydia. I'm devastated and now wonder what else might have 'slipped through' seeing as Chlamydia has, including HIV of course.

I've been with my Wife for 12 years, 8 of which we were married and i have never stayed before. I'm wondering if we have both had this the whole time without any symptoms but the thought that I have got it from this exposure has now heightened by HIV Anxiety.

Although very drunk I seemed to recall all the details of the night and I am sure that I would have remember any actual penetration unless she jumped on me quickly while i had my eyes shut. I fell aslepp at one point but I doubt that I couldd have achieved much in that state.

help please.
Title: Re: Your views please
Post by: RapidRod on August 08, 2006, 02:50:24 pm
Now it looks as though your wife needs to be checked for Chlamydia. Yes you both could have had it without symptoms, but now you need to get it taken care of.
Title: Re: Your views please
Post by: Doa on August 08, 2006, 02:55:39 pm
She's been away throughout this whole period and so we obviously haven't had sex together since my exposure but how the hell can I broach that subject.

What about HIV?

What if I have totally forgotten that there was some penetration - hardly likely I know but my mind is whirling now!
Title: Re: Your views please
Post by: RapidRod on August 08, 2006, 03:20:04 pm
If you would have had penetration you would know. You might as well fess up to your wife about it. I don't know how else you can do it.
Title: Re: Your views please
Post by: Morgan on August 08, 2006, 04:29:36 pm
Doa,

Chlamydia is MUCH easier to contract than hiv.  Hiv is not an issue for you in what you have described.  Hiv is very fragile and does not easily infect.  No so with chlamydia.

Morgan
Title: Re: Your views please
Post by: Doa on August 08, 2006, 04:53:59 pm
Morgan

I keep going over that night and I've got a horrible feeling now that maybe what I though was her hands with saliva on masturbating me was acually her sitting on me. I was lying back at the time and as soon as I felt what I thought was her hands I pushed them away. Maybe the wetnes was actually her vagina. There must have been penetration for me to have caught clamidiya. It must have only been one thrust down but I feel sick with worry now.
Title: Re: Your views please
Post by: Morgan on August 08, 2006, 05:13:11 pm
Doa,

Wrong.  Penetration is NOT necessary to contract chlamydia.

You're starting to lose it.  Just chill out!!

Morgan
Title: Re: Your views please
Post by: Doa on August 08, 2006, 10:22:43 pm
Sorry, it's just that the doctor on Medhelp says that hand to genital transmission of any STD is so rare it isn't worth considering. The doctor that I am seeing here didn't seem to agree with himeither like you, but I'm not totally convinced by my doctor to be honest. I know this is an HIV/AIDS board but do you mind me asking you if you are qualified in the std field and know this to be a fact?

Thanks
Title: Re: Your views please
Post by: Doa on August 09, 2006, 06:22:07 am
OK I now convinced that there must have been some penetration with this sex worker from Africa as I contracted Clamidiya. I know Morgan said that there does not have to be penetration to catch it but this just goes against every other piece of information i hear or read. The penetration could only have been brief (long enough to catch Chlamydia though) - maybe an in and out once or twice while I was lying on my back. I'm sure I would have remembered if I had initiated it but she must have just put me inside her before I pulled away thinking it was just her hand. I also carried on masturbating myself after this so would have been rubbing any fluid into my penis. As Morgan rightly said I'm losing it. Its been 12 days now since the exposure and I'm just waiting for the next thing to appear - Herpes. I had a sore on my groin just above the pubic hair line. My doctor thinks it is a skin irritation due to it being on my underpant elastic line and it being hot where I live, which makes sense but it is just worrying me so much. He did a herpes test yesterday as he said it would show up in my blood as the sore had come out but I though you had to wait 13 weeks like HIV.

I also petrified now that if I contacted Chlamydia, which is found in the cervix that I could have got HIV as well.

Sorry to keep going on about it but i'm all alone and I can't cope waiting 11 more weeks to get tested. I live in a country that doesn't have any proper STD clinics and I just don't know where to turn. i've not even been able to go into work today.

When can I accurately test for anything?
Title: Re: Your views please
Post by: RapidRod on August 09, 2006, 06:40:07 am
What medication did the doctor give you? You can't make me believe that you vaginal sex and don't remember. I don't know where you are getting your information on Chlamydia but you are incorrect. You can get Chlamydia from the anal sex, vaginal sex, from birth and rarely from oral sex. Chlamydia, in no way means you were exposed to HIV...period
Title: Re: Your views please
Post by: Doa on August 09, 2006, 06:45:36 am
He has given me Zithromax (2 tablets in the morning and Evening over 3 alternate days) plus 3 weeks worth of Ciprobay 500.

I was so drunk that I was lying on the bed with my eyes closed and felt something wet on my penis. I sort of waved my hand down there to stop whatever she was doing. All along I though that it was her hand with saliva on it but this is what I am saying, that she musst have quickly inserted my penis because as you say, Chlamydia can only be transmitted by penetrative sex, so she must have done what I now fear.
Title: Re: Your views please
Post by: RapidRod on August 09, 2006, 06:48:54 am
You may get others to buy your story, I don't. I don't care how drunk you were you would have remembered having intercourse.
Title: Re: Your views please
Post by: Doa on August 09, 2006, 06:57:24 am
I'm serious Rapid. It didn't cross my mind that I had until I got this Chlamidiya infection. As I said I just felt something wet on my penis and all along have thought it was saliva on her hand. I'm really not trying to get you to buy a story, I'm just now doubting what I thought happened. It could only have been very brief and I didn't respond by thrusting or anything as I would have remembered initiating it. She must have just stuck it in herself thinking that was what I wanted. After I stopped her I remember her saying "Don't you like that then" so I can remember that but I didn't see what she actually did.

I know that a 13 week test will be conclusive but what about after 6 weeks.

What are the risks involved in such a brief exposure?
Title: Re: Your views please
Post by: Doa on August 09, 2006, 07:14:10 am
Please Guys. I'm really serious about this. I stopped coming on this board because I was very clear in my mind what had happened and you told me that that was Zero Risk but now I have the Chlamydia infection something else, however brief, must have happened.

How risky was this brief exposure and how accurate is a 6 week test, if only to calm me down a little?

I'm not timewasting. I'm really freaked out and need your help.

Thanks
Title: Re: Your views please
Post by: RapidRod on August 09, 2006, 07:19:40 am
You need to get a grip. She wouldn't and didn't use a condom on you to go back and have sex unprotected. Now does that make a whole hell of a lot of sense? That's why she used the condom in the first place. It wasn't to protect you, it was to protect her.
Title: Re: Your views please
Post by: Doa on August 09, 2006, 07:27:23 am
Well the same thought crossed my mind and if the Chlamydia had been negative I would have get thinking that, but I have Chlamydia and I didn't have it before. I've had the symptoms the past day or two so it must be a new infection so regardless of her using the condom on her fingers earlier, she surely must have exposed my penis to the infection and hence not use a condom that time. Why she did this - who knows but the facts seem to speak for themselves.  Maybe she didn't insert it but just rubbed it on her vagina, I truthfully don't know.

Again, how risky was this brief exposure and how accurate is a 6 week test, if only to calm me down a little?

I know that I am becoming a pain in the neck but I'm petrified now. I can't tell my Wife as that will be the end of our marriage and my kids, which is all I am bothered about and so somehow I have to see this time through, keep her safe and hopefully get the all clear so I can spend the rest of my life making it up to her. If it turns out to be positive for HIV or Herpes then I will have to face that then.
Title: Re: Your views please
Post by: Doa on August 09, 2006, 08:16:21 am
Ann

I think that I have peeved RapidRod off the board. I really welcome your views and was just wondering if you would be kind enough to respond to my last couple of posts, particularly about how risky my 'possible' brief exposure was seeing as the girl was a sex worker from Africa and also about the accuracy of a 6 week test. If you read back a little, you'll see that due to receiving a positive chlamydia result last night, I have to assume that there was actually some penetration with this girl even though I originally thought what I felt was her hand covered in saliva. From the Chlamydia result, I have to assume that she sat on me and inserted my penis into her without me realising. It could only have been for a few seconds but my recollections of those minutes of the night are almost non existant due to the drink.

Thanks
Title: Re: Your views please
Post by: Ann on August 09, 2006, 08:40:26 am
Doa,

You don't have to assume anything of the sort. It is entirely possible to transmit chlamydia without penetration. It might not happen all that often, but it can and does.

Your chlamydia infection doesn't have any real bearing on your hiv risk - such a brief penetration is unlikely to result in hiv infection. (if that brief penetration actually happened)

If this woman had chlamydia infected vaginal fluid on her hands, and if she rubbed the head of your penis, it could easily have been transmitted to you in this way.

However, hiv infected vaginal fluided rubbed on you wouldn't  infect you. Hiv is much too fragile to be transmitted that way. This falls under the mutual masturbation heading and is not a risk for infection.

If you cannot be totally sure if penetration took place or not, then test. I expect you to test negative.

By the way, I suspect your initial assessment of the situation was correct and it was her hands. If you were on your back, you would have felt her body on top of you, which would feel very different from just her hands. You would have noticed the weight of her.

Ann
Title: Re: Your views please
Post by: Doa on August 09, 2006, 08:57:55 am
Thanks Ann

As calming and constructive as ever. I'm still convinced she did insert me now due to the rare occurence of Chlamydia being transferred by hand but that's my problem.

What about the accuracy of having a test at 6 weeks?
Title: Re: Your views please
Post by: Ann on August 09, 2006, 09:12:55 am
Doa,

I wouldn't say it was rare for chlamydia to be transmitted through mutual masturbation; I've seen it several times in this forum. Gonorrhea too.

These infections are on the rise everywhere because they are so easily transmitted. I don't have the figures to hand, but the percentage of the population who have chlamydia is very high.

Ann
Title: Re: Your views please
Post by: Doa on August 09, 2006, 09:14:45 am
And the 6 week HIV test?
Title: Re: Your views please
Post by: RapidRod on August 09, 2006, 09:39:46 am
Doa, I hate to bust your bubble but you did peve me. I went back to bed. As much as you lurk this forum you don't read the other posts? You know a 6 week test is not conclusive.
Title: Re: Your views please
Post by: Doa on August 09, 2006, 10:05:27 am
Please accept my apology. I know I've been on here a lot today but the Chlamydia result that I only got late last night freaked me out. I stopped posting on here after only a few initial posts last week when I was happy that I had no risk. I even clear all the links to the site from my history to stop me having the urge to post. This infection just threw everything up in the air again.

I shouldn't of kept asking about the 6 week test. As you say, I know that it is a good indicator but not conclusive.

Again, my apologies.