POZ Community Forums
Meds, Mind, Body & Benefits => Questions About Treatment & Side Effects => Topic started by: Rockin on December 18, 2011, 11:49:04 pm
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Well I noticed that now sometimes when I go on a binge drinking night I tend to suffer from awful hangovers and sometimes even rapid heartbeats. It doesn't happen everytime I drink but occasionally. This week, for example, I went out with friends and had like 5 vodka drinks. When I got home I felt noxious and my heart was beating real fast for like 30min-1 hour. Not fun at all.
My doctor said it's probably because of meds and how they make the liver work overtime. Therefore, the amount of alcohol puts even more pressure on it.
Now...after reading some posts here I tend to take what every doctor says out there with a grain of salt. How much damage HAART meds truly cause on the liver? Do any of you have, or have had, problems with alcohol?
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I suspect this is an extremely individual experience - HAART and possible effects on liver. And not fixed in time but varies according to your health, diet, patterns, etc.
What is important is that a night of drinking makes YOU feel ill. Why not experiment over time to see what your tolerance is. Obviously for the moment a night of drinking is not working for you. And your doctor offers an explanation.
How long have you been on HAART?
How long have you been HIV positive?
What other medicine do you take?
How old are you and how much have you been drinking in recent years.
I am sure you can find a solution for you, alone, if you patiently explore different options and observe, over time.
A few years on Haart here. I go through periods where I drink a lot, other times not. And my blood work always comes back normal - and I specifically ask about drinking and the doc says it does not seem to be a problem for me at this time.
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I've noticed both of those things on my current combo -- it didn't seem to happen on my first one. I only go to a bar occasionally, but when I drank was one of those guys who never got a hangover. Now if I have more than a few drinks I pay for it. I think the limit is somewhere around 4 standard servings
I find that I feel intoxicated with less alcohol too, though -- so when I can remember I just alternate a drink with a bottle of water.
Perhaps try spacing the drinks out?
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If you aren't feeling "noxious" when you don't drink -- perhaps you are looking at this from the wrong angle. Perhaps it is the "binge drinking" that is having an effect on your liver. The alcohol, your doctor should have pointed out, makes the liver 'work overtime' too.
If you have to do something about one or the other, it would seem that alcohol is the obvious choice, as this isn't required to continue living.
Just sayin.....
Mike
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I don't think I drink a lot...probably 2x a week. I compare myself to my mother's husband. He drinks everyday. One or two glasses of scotch. And he has a serious heart condition at age 61. I don't think I could handle drinking every day, it's too much.
On one hand is a good thing...I don't enjoy the excessive drinking and I know it's bad for me. I'm a health-conscious person but at the same time I'm a hedonist who enjoys all those bad things that we know we should not be doing.
I guess it also comes down to being single. If I had a boyfriend at the moment I'd probably be home a lot more and doing less "damaging things".
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I'm also considering doing a testosterone cycle (i've always been on the skinny side and have difficulty gaining lean muscle at the gym) and I worry that, even if I cut back on alcohol, it might damage my liver, because of the meds.
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Liver disease is now a major cause of death for people who are HIV +. I beleive it is now the #1 cause of death for hiv pos folks but I could be wrong.
There are a number of reasons for this such as Hepatitis coinfection, a higher rate of alcoholism, long term antiviral usage, and the effect HIV itself has on the liver.
With that being said, you should be cognizant of the risk and do what you can to reduce it such as limiting your alcohol intake, get vaccinated for hep a/b, dont take drugs, be nice to your liver.
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Oh and you say you dont drink a lot, then say you binge drink twice a week, 5 vodka drinks each time. Thats 10 vodka drinks a week. Thats a lot to me, whats a lot to you?
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Oh and you say you dont drink a lot, then say you binge drink twice a week, 5 vodka drinks each time. Thats 10 vodka drinks a week. Thats a lot to me, whats a lot to you?
I don't know really...what is too much anyway? A doctor friend of mine says the liver renegerates itself pretty quickly. I always assumed that, if you binge drink one night but stay off-alcohol for the next days then your liver should be ok.
I just don't know how, and how much, HAART meds affect the liver.
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Perhaps it is the "binge drinking" that is having an effect on your liver.
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If you have to do something about one or the other, it would seem that alcohol is the obvious choice, as this isn't required to continue living.
quoted because this is really sound advice.
even if the meds are damaging your liver, you might have to change your priorities to what is the most important (the meds, doh! LOL). You can minimize the liver damage then not adding the alcohol to the mix. (anyone that's had to deal with hepatitis knows that sometimes it's the alcohol that has to go and not the meds.)
I don't enjoy the excessive drinking and I know it's bad for me. I'm a health-conscious person
your actions belie your words though. Binge drinking is not a very health-conscious choice. Maybe if you cut down one drink you might feel better. It's a place to start before crying about damage from the meds. ;) Also you might want to consider the effects of the alcohol on your appetite and general health before you start testosterone. (which by the way have you been diagnosed with low T or just thinking that might be a fix for your issue?)
I guess it also comes down to being single. If I had a boyfriend at the moment I'd probably be home a lot more and doing less "damaging things".
oh my! now that's a lame cop-out. ;D 'I don't have a BF so I drank myself into a stupor and felt like crap the next day.' ROFL Try finding a nice hobby instead to fill up some time. Who knows drinking less and being more sober, you might just find a boyfriend too. ;)
always remember when your life isn't like you want it, you have to do something else than what you've been doing to shake it up and make it change. ;)
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oh my! now that's a lame cop-out. ;D 'I don't have a BF so I drank myself into a stupor and felt like crap the next day.' ROFL Try finding a nice hobby instead to fill up some time. Who knows drinking less and being more sober, you might just find a boyfriend too. ;)
always remember when your life isn't like you want it, you have to do something else than what you've been doing to shake it up and make it change. ;)
Leatherman I really respect the fact that you've lived through so much and are very experienced about this stuff. But you make it sound like it's the easiest thing in the world.
"Oh sure...I'll quit drinking completely and start gardening". That's not me man.
I'm struggling right now...not with HIV but with other issues. I try to stay off drinks and drugs as much as possible but sometimes some things in my life become unbearable. And so I drink. And yes, having a boyfriend makes it easier. I wouldn't stay out until 7am of the next day if I had someone to cuddle to in bed. I'd probably do more normal stuff like a calm dinner or staying home and watch movies.
I'm not saying I'm right and I'm not saying I don't want to change. I do. But I'm also realistic and I don't think I'll be able to quit it completely for the moment. We have to know our limitations.
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You could always switch to pot. A nice water pipe will spare your lungs, and your liver will thank you.
:)
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Alcohol damages the liver, HIV meds less so/not so much at all (depends on meds and person).
Some HIV meds make your liver work overtime, so moral: be prepared for the aftershock if you have a drink. Norvir and all NNRTIs (efavirenz, nevirapine etc) being the main culprits.
- matt
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Well I am on Norvir.
I will try to cut back. The thing is I see a lot of testimonials here from people who are not only on HAART but also a bunch of other stuff. 1 pill for depression, 1 pill for anxiety, 1 pill to sleep, etc.
I don't take anything other than my HAART meds. Maybe I should. One of the reasons I sometimes drink by myself is because of anxiety. And I don't smoke so...I guess is my drug to cope with some issues (again, not HIV).
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Yer, me too, but it comes and goes, and the long term solution is not another pill but some progress over time towards a change/different way of managing things. Which takes time, so don't beat yourself up (and watch the nights out for time being).
- matt
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Hey Rockin,
The main reason I responded to you was that your OP sounded like the meds were the problem, not the drinking. While, you may need to consider changing meds at some point, if you only have the noxious symptoms after drinking, then therein lies the problem.
Let it never be said that I think this is easy. As a recovering alcoholic, I know how hard it is. I'm not saying that you are an alcoholic, BTW. However, if you are drinking a couple times a week to forget your problems, well, that seems problematic from where I am sitting -- I don't know you, it is true, but in my 22 yrs of sobriety, I have seen what drinking away problems can do to people.
I am not here to judge -- just help.
Mike
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A therapist can help you find althernative ways to deal with anxiety snd depression in both the short run, in emergency crisis moments, and for the long run.
Drinking is a an effective way to burn off steam and unwind in the right context aand when things are going well in your life. There might be other chemicals that could be more productive and less messy in your life and body chemistry than drinking to cope.
Lorazepam comes to mind. And perhaps a spell on an SSRI. These chems alone can work wonders to unstick a person and or his ruminating thought processes. Or not. Best to have them in context of therapy as well, but if you cant have both, at least have one or the other - therapy - or psychoactive medicine to help you through a hight stress passage
If paranoia is involved, pot may not be wise. But if you generally relax with a joint, then that might also be a way to both chill AND jump start into new and creative ideas and plans for the future.
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Hey Rockin,
The main reason I responded to you was that your OP sounded like the meds were the problem, not the drinking. While, you may need to consider changing meds at some point, if you only have the noxious symptoms after drinking, then therein lies the problem.
Let it never be said that I think this is easy. As a recovering alcoholic, I know how hard it is. I'm not saying that you are an alcoholic, BTW. However, if you are drinking a couple times a week to forget your problems, well, that seems problematic from where I am sitting -- I don't know you, it is true, but in my 22 yrs of sobriety, I have seen what drinking away problems can do to people.
I am not here to judge -- just help.
Mike
I do actually think I have a tendency towards alcoholism...but I don't think I'm quite there yet.
I'm just going through a bad period I guess. I'm trying to remain optimistic though.
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A therapist can help you find althernative ways to deal with anxiety snd depression in both the short run, in emergency crisis moments, and for the long run.
Drinking is a an effective way to burn off steam and unwind in the right context aand when things are going well in your life. There might be other chemicals that could be more productive and less messy in your life and body chemistry than drinking to cope.
Lorazepam comes to mind. And perhaps a spell on an SSRI. These chems alone can work wonders to unstick a person and or his ruminating thought processes. Or not. Best to have them in context of therapy as well, but if you cant have both, at least have one or the other - therapy - or psychoactive medicine to help you through a hight stress passage
If paranoia is involved, pot may not be wise. But if you generally relax with a joint, then that might also be a way to both chill AND jump start into new and creative ideas and plans for the future.
I do get a little paranoid, yes. But I might give it a try. I used to be a pothead but it got old.
I might consult my HIV doctor, although I don't know if he'll be able to prescribe an anxiety med, since he's a public doctor.
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I do get a little paranoid, yes. But I might give it a try. I used to be a pothead but it got old.
I might consult my HIV doctor, although I don't know if he'll be able to prescribe an anxiety med, since he's a public doctor.
Rockin,
I recently found out from my ID that weed is hard on your liver especially if you are a daily smoker.
Peace,
Billy
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I do actually think I have a tendency towards alcoholism...but I don't think I'm quite there yet.
I'm just going through a bad period I guess. I'm trying to remain optimistic though.
If you feel you have a "tendency toward alcoholism" but don't think you are "there" yet -- there is really only one thing to do. It's the same whether you are "there" or not -- it's to not drink. I know that sounds radical, but it is, what it is.
Alcoholism isn't a state of mind -- it is a disease -- one that, if untreated, will kill you as surely as untreated HIV infection will kill you.
Mike
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Rockin,
I recently found out from my ID that weed is hard on your liver especially if you are a daily smoker.
Peace,
Billy
Wow good to know, thanks. I never heard that before I'm going to ask about it, as well.
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If you feel you have a "tendency toward alcoholism" but don't think you are "there" yet -- there is really only one thing to do. It's the same whether you are "there" or not -- it's to not drink. I know that sounds radical, but it is, what it is.
Alcoholism isn't a state of mind -- it is a disease -- one that, if untreated, will kill you as surely as untreated HIV infection will kill you.
Mike
I will try to avoid it but I don't plan on quitting it anytime soon. I'm just going through a bad period, I don't usually drink as much (I still don't know if a bottle of vodka a week it "that' much")
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Wow good to know, thanks. I never heard that before I'm going to ask about it, as well.
Hello Mecch,
I did a search and yes it appears to be true. Smoking it increases fibrosis especially if you are co-infected with C.
Peace,
Billy
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It makes no sense to be concerned about possibly damaging your liver by taking HIV meds or smoking pot for that matter when your drinking a bottle of vodka every week.
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Niacin can damage your liver. I quit taking it since my liver enzymes are up in the Sky. :-[ Some other ''supplements'' can do this too.
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Rockin,
I recently found out from my ID that weed is hard on your liver especially if you are a daily smoker.
Peace,
Billy
Was your doctor basing his opinion on this study?
http://www.scientistlive.com/European-Science-News/Medical/Marijuana_linked_to_liver_damage/19645/
infected
If he was, it's important to note that the study involved people who drank AND smoked pot daily. And were infected with HCV/co-infected with HCV/HIV.
In addition, it's the only study of which I am aware and only had 328 subjects. Until repeated studies confirm the assertions, I would be pretty skeptical, especially considering the considerable caveats and so-infection issues.
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It makes no sense to be concerned about possibly damaging your liver by taking HIV meds or smoking pot for that matter when your drinking a bottle of vodka every week.
Truth.
I am on Prezista, Norvir, Truvada and Isentress. When I drink to much, my liver enzymes are elevated. When I don't, they are normal - even considering the drugs. And I smoke absolutely all the pot I can get my hands on, though not daily. Can't get my hand on that much :)
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Was your doctor basing his opinion on this study?
http://www.scientistlive.com/European-Science-News/Medical/Marijuana_linked_to_liver_damage/19645/
infected
If he was, it's important to note that the study involved people who drank AND smoked pot daily. And were infected with HCV/co-infected with HCV/HIV.
In addition, it's the only study of which I am aware and only had 328 subjects. Until repeated studies confirm the assertions, I would be pretty skeptical, especially considering the considerable caveats and so-infection issues.
jkinatl2,
I don't really know where he heard the information that he passed on to me but I would say that it was at one of the many conferences that he attends yearly. He is the department head of the ID clinic at WFUBMC in NC.
Peace,
Billy
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jkinatl2,
I don't really know where he heard the information that he passed on to me but I would say that it was at one of the many conferences that he attends yearly. He is the department head of the ID clinic at WFUBMC in NC.
Peace,
Billy
I think its wonderful that you see such an accredited physician. I asked because I had never heard of deleterious effects of marijuana on the liver, and I was curious to the science behind that assertion.
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Smoked cannabis affects the liver, cos smoking affects the liver. Otherwise it affect your kidneys and gut (therefore makes you piss and crap more). I drink and smoke etc and I know it's bad for me liver et al, but me liver enzymes/lung function/heart tests are always normal.
Liver enzymes are not the be all and end all of liver health. And over-egging the long-term downside of a spiff/voddie of a month or two is not really justified.
- matt
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Smoked cannabis affects the liver, cos smoking affects the liver. Otherwise it affect your kidneys and gut (therefore makes you piss and crap more). I drink and smoke etc and I know it's bad for me liver et al, but me liver enzymes/lung function/heart tests are always normal.
Liver enzymes are not the be all and end all of liver health. And over-egging the long-term downside of a spiff/voddie of a month or two is not really justified.
- matt
Hmm... would a vaporizer and/or eating it baked in brownies negate the impact on the liver?
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Hi Rockin, just wanted to say first off I an relate to what you said about being on the skinny side...Ive always been slim with a smaller frame, and I used to be really stick skinny. I went throug some rough times dealing with substance abuse but in the last couple years I made some changed and I gained weight and muscle. I'm always going to be small framed, and I'm fine with it. As far as liver, I would say that moderation is the key. Everyone is different, but in general, binge drinking isn't healthy. It could potentially mess with your meds and liver. That being said, I like my bourbon and I have drinks but I don't get shitfaced drunk like I used to. Just tipsy, or buzzed, or just one to take the edge off after a long day. You just have to learn what your tolerance is and if you can keep it in check. Just use some common sense, and good luck