Thinking of taking ecstasy - but I'm on Kaletra.......

[Patrick]

Yeah so go ahead and call me a "bad gay" but I've never actually taken ecstasy before.  "Clutch the pearls" as philly would say......

Anyway, I want to give it a whirl, as long as I don't kill myself in the process.  In my usual neurotic fashion, I researched it online a bit, and found the interaction between ritonavir and ecstasy.  I take Kaletra, which we all know is 200mg of ritonavir a day.  So I know the ritonavir can inhibit ecstasy metabolism because they use the same liver enzyme for metabolization.

What I want to know is HOW to do this so I end up having a good time, and not screwing myself up.  I know there was one death that was due to some poor guy taking ecstasy while on ritonavir.  I usually take my kaletra at 6:30am and 6:30pm, so I was going to take HALF of one pill around midnight or 1am, and see how I do.  I figure both the dosage (half) and the time from me taking Kaletra (around 6 hours on either end) should mitigate some of the contradindication. 

I know many of you have experience with this, so I'm looking for some advice.  If this is something that I can do safely, let me know.  If I am really really playing with fire here, let me know that too.  I won't do it if the danger is that significant.  But I hate it when the bar shuts down at 2am, the music plays until 7am, my friends are energetic and having a great time, and by 3:30am I'm sober and tired.

[Peter Staley]

Patrick -- I know you might get some finger-wagging replies, but the basic answer to your question is that you should be fine using the plan you've outlined.  You are right that Norvir can raise the amount of x in you system, but that case report of the guy overdosing seems to be a one-off -- if the interaction was that dangerous, we would have heard of many deaths, not one. 

Taking the half dose first is smart.  If, after about one and a half hours, you're not feeling it much, then take the other half.  Also, drink LOTS of water during the night (this won't affect the blood levels of the drug, but dehydration is a risk either way).

I'm just thrilled you're not asking about crystal meth.  Please don't go there -- while nowhere near universally addictive, it's still a complete crap shoot.  A person's prior history of successful drug use has little to no bearing on whether or not they'll become addicted to meth (I speak from experience -- I "successfully" used a multitude of drugs for many years without becoming addicted to any of them, then my life almost fell apart after 6 months of playing with meth).

That said, making x a habit can also mess with your life.  So think this through -- how often do you like to dance with your friends till 7am?  If it's every week, then using that much x will eventually fry your brain to an extent, especially affecting your ability to remember things.  If it's once in a blue moon, you should be fine.

[BassMan]

Patrick

I take 100mg Ritonavir daily. I go out every Saturday and I'm quite partial to the odd "disco biscuit." I only do halves though; if I take a full one, it usually makes me feel a little queasy. I do half when I go out around 10:30pm, then maybe another half around 1:00 or 1:30am. That usually keeps me going until the early hours. Rarely, if I'm out very late indeed, I might consider another half around 3:30am, but that would be exceptional. I should also point out I don't drink much alcohol when clubbing; two or three bottles of Bud, then it's only water after that.

Everyone's metabolism is different of course, and the strength of the pills varies considerably, so listen to your body. I'd also advise asking one of your mates to keep their eye on you just in case you have a bad time. Also, take regular timeouts from dancing to help counteract any overheating.

I'd echo just about everything Peter says, but with the one caveat that you can actually drink too much water. You do need to keep well hydrated, but it's possible to overdo it. There have been reports that some of the deaths attributed to Ecstasy were actually caused by so-called "water intoxication" or hyponatraemia. Many of the times I've felt sick is when I've drank too much water.

The Leah Betts Story
http://ecstasy.org/info/dangers.html

Why Too Much Water Is Dangerous
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/6263029.stm

The Good Drugs Guide
http://www.thegooddrugsguide.com/ecstasy/dangers.htm

Take care,

Carl
Manchester, UK


edited for a dodgy link

[Buckmark]

Yeah so go ahead and call me a "bad gay" but I've never actually taken ecstasy before.

I've never taken ecstasy before, either.  That doesn't make me, or you, a "bad gay".   So I hope you are not deciding to take it just because all of your friends are.  There are likely better reasons to do so, and certainly plenty of reasons not to.  While I reallize this thread is not about whether or not you should do so, but I did want to point this out.  So, technically, I have no practical experience or advice to provide you.  Fortunately, others here have already provided this.

Regards,

Henry

[Miss Philicia]

"halves"?  I used to generally require at least two, plus a 1/2 tab of acid as a chaser and several bumps of K.

[MYSTERY]

I was at a party with a friend and he was a user of ecstasy. While I was partying with him he was dancing and became very hot, and then fell to the ground and became unresponsive. He later went into a coma and died. The problem with ecstasy you can get a bad pill and die or become very ill from it. Also, if you get hooked on ecstasy it will eventually burn out your frontal lobs in your brain.

The problem with drugs are that eventually you must get off them and live your normal 24/7 and the drugs will change your brain and your pleasure senses will require you to do drugs to enjoy life. It also seems like drugs turn into gateway drugs for other ones like meth. If you get hooked up with "Tina" she is always a "bitch" and she will ruin your life. And people with compromised immune systems can not afford her because she is high maintenance.

I agree with Peter that if you can try it and not become addicted you should be fine. But would hate for you to become addicted and then mess your body up which is also fighting hiv. And like I mentioned it only takes that one bad pill to possible kill you.

My advise from on top my soap box is if you haven't tried it don't do it. I think this was the "finger waging" reply Peter was talking about,  so I will put my hand down now. 

[denb45]

What is ecstasy, is it anything like LSD or MDA?  I know I'm form the old school here?  after all I'm 52, I know what Tina is ( Meth) but, I don't think that's a good thing for anybody with HIV, and taking Meds

[BassMan]

"halves"?  I used to generally require at least two, plus a 1/2 tab of acid as a chaser and several bumps of K.

  Hardcore.

What is ecstasy, is it anything like LSD or MDA?  I know I'm form the old school here?  after all I'm 52

The active ingredient is MDMA.

Quote from The Good Drugs Guide:

"The risk of death from Ecstasy use is extremely low. Between 1988 and 1997 some 50-100 UK deaths have been connected to Ecstasy use. The current rate is 7 deaths per million users per year. More people die fishing or eating peanuts.

The US figures are much lower, only one death per million users, largely due to the enduring preference for warehouse or outdoor parties rather than hot packed-out nightclubs. There is also less of a booze culture amongst American kids. Most E-related deaths are related to alcohol-consumption and over-heating."

Also, if you get hooked on ecstasy it will eventually burn out your frontal lobs in your brain....The problem with drugs are that eventually you must get off them and live your normal 24/7

Sorry to hear that about your friend. I personally haven't seen any studies that suggest E burns out any part of your brain, nor do I know of anyone who has come to any harm from taking it, and believe me, I know a lot. Would you care to provide a link? I do however know of many, many people who have died from alcohol and tobacco abuse. As for getting "off" drugs, that presupposes one is "on" drugs. I don't see taking E on a Saturday night as being "on drugs" any more than a smoker who smokes 20 a day is "on tobacco," (which numerous studies have found to be far more harmful than E.)

Alcohol and Tobacco are deadlier than Ecstasy
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2007/mar/04/drugsandalcohol.smoking
http://www.netdoctor.co.uk/health_advice/facts/smokehealth.htm

Let's not mistake informed, recreational drug use for substance abuse here. The following data was taken, again, from the Good Drugs Guide, and from NetDoctor:

UK deaths from E: 7 per million users per year.
UK deaths from alcohol: 625 per million users per year.
UK deaths from tobacco: 120,000 per year.

We all have our poison of choice; I know which I prefer.

Carl,
Manchester, UK
 
edited for typos.

[marc11864]

One suggestion, eat lightly 3 to 4 hours before you intend to take it (A Greek salad and a roll worked great for me) and make sure you friends know that it is your first time and could they please watch out for you.

[MYSTERY]

Cognitive failures among Ecstasy users may be attributable in part to central executive deficits from frontal lobe damage linked with use of this drug.

Chronic use of Ecstasy, also known as MDMA (3,4-methylenedioxymethamphetamine), is believed to lead to impaired psychological performance; there are well-documented decrements of retrospective memory in laboratory and field tests. Less is known, however, about the impact of its use on aspects of everyday memory, despite obvious concerns about such effects.

The authors of this study looked at three other studies focusing on the impact of chronic Ecstasy use on prospective memory (PM, the ability to remember something in the future), associated central executive function and other aspects of day-to-day cognition.

In the first study, 46 regular Ecstasy users were compared with 46 Ecstasy-free controls using the Prospective Memory Questionnaire (PMQ).

Users of the drug reported significantly more errors in PM than did controls; these findings persisted after researchers controlled for other drug use and strategies used to aid memory.

No difference was found between representative subgroups on the Lies Scale of the Eysenck Personality Questionnaire.

In the second different study, 30 regular Ecstasy users and 37 Ecstasy-free controls were assessed on the PMQ and on a central executive task comprising verbal fluency measures.

Results confirmed the significant impairments in long- and short-term PM and corresponding impairments in verbal fluency among Ecstasy users.

In the third study, 15 Ecstasy users, 15 cannabis users and 15 non-drug users were assessed using the Cognitive Failures Questionnaire; this requires participants to provide ratings of the frequency of various day-to-day cognitive slips.

Results of this study indicate Ecstasy users did not perceive their general cognitive performance to be worse than that of controls.

Thus, taken together, the results suggest Ecstasy users have impaired PM that cannot be explained by an increased propensity to exaggerate cognitive failures.

These failures may be attributable, in part, to central executive deficits that are due to frontal lobe damage associated with Ecstasy use, these authors conclude.

These are the views of T. M. Heffernan and colleagues from the Human Cognitive Neuroscience Unit, University of Northumbria, and University of Newcastle, both in Newcastle upon Tyne, and the Psychology Section, University of Teesside, Middlesbrough, all in England.
Human Psychopharmacology: Clinical and Experimental Volume 16, Issue 8, 2001. Pages: 607-612. "Prospective memory, everyday cognitive failure and central executive function in recreational users of Ecstasy"

[Miss Philicia]

sheesh

I feel like I'm watching this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a5TJApnJ8X8

[skeebo1969]

  Herb is so much prettier than ectasy.  Nice fat green bud with purple hairs, smelling like blueberries..  nice lime green buds with splashes of red and orange, puffs of  crimson   hairs..

[Oceanbeach]

Yeah so go ahead and call me a "bad gay" but I've never actually taken ecstasy before.  "Clutch the pearls" as philly would say......

I have never tried it either but, have clutched pearls in the past...  Having lived in the Crystal Gardens apartments for 5 months and not tried that either, I would have to turn in my Vestal Virgin card if I tried either drug.  The information is good    Have the best day
Michael

[denb45]

sheesh

I feel like I'm watching this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a5TJApnJ8X8

Oh that's too funny philliy  I remember that too........ROFLOL.........aah the good ole days, whn you could drop a tab of acid and trip-out-all day long.........now I  really feel old 

[denb45]

  Herb is so much prettier than ectasy.  Nice fat green bud with purple hairs, smelling like blueberries..  nice lime green buds with splashes of red and orange, puffs of  crimson   hairs..

OMFG...............your my kinda Man..........where the hell you been all my life    if you got any of this let's party FUCK the Ecstasy, we won't need it 

[Oceanbeach]

 Herb is so much prettier than ectasy.  Nice fat green bud with purple hairs, smelling like blueberries..  nice lime green buds with splashes of red and orange, puffs of  crimson   hairs..

Party at Tom's,  I'll make the margaritas    Have the best day
Michael

[Miss Philicia]

The first time I did ecstasy one of the guys in our little group of co-trippers was found desperately chasing turds around the floor of the bathroom of my apartment while tripping because he'd shit so much it stopped up the toilet.  From that day on we called him "Stools" behind his back.

[denb45]

The first time I did ecstasy one of the guys in our little group of co-trippers was found desperately chasing turds around the floor of the bathroom of my apartment while tripping because he'd shit so much it stopped up the toilet.  From that day on we called him "Stools" behind his back.

OH My    I remember seeing someone doing something like that while on crack, but, instead, they said they saw bugs crawling all over them, but he still kept on looking all over the carpet for whatever he thought were broken pieces of crack or meth.........Shameful   I'm suprized I even remembered that, it was so long ago (20 to 25 yrs) ago 

[Jody]

I don't want to preach either, I am a product of the 70's - that is the 1970's, not the 1870's-  and I partied myself.......But as a person with HIV in 2008 why not get high on life, holier than thou as it may sound, difficult as it may be.  Enjoy being out with friends, able bodied and having a great time.

I am not finger wagging but you are POZ, give drugs a rest and be thankful for waking up healthy.  You never know what you are getting in that pill or whatever substance it may contain, whether it interferes with Kaletra or other AIDS meds or not. 

But as others have said, if you have made a decision to do it, be safe and be well.

Jody

[BassMan]

Mystery - Thanks for the info. I'd be interested to know how the researchers defined "chronic Ecstasy use."

All drugs have a physiological effect; that's why people use them. The question comes down to whether you're prepared to live with any side effects there may be, how severe or long lasting those side effects are, and the relative harm (physiological, psychological and social) that the particular drug in question is associated with. Try downing half a bottle of whisky a day and see what effect that has on your memory and cognitive ability. I'm sure there are far more scarey scientific reports on the long-term effects of tobacco and alcohol abuse.

Personally I don't buy into the "slippery slope" theory; if you're going to end up a junkie, you will. You don't need weaning with softer drugs.

Use anything to excess and you'll end up in trouble. Like I said, use vs. abuse...

Carl,
Manchester, UK