POZ Community Forums
Main Forums => Living With HIV => Topic started by: oksikoko on May 14, 2013, 01:28:41 am
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Has this been discussed here? Sorry if it's a duplicate thread.
http://www.poz.com/articles/sound_of_stigma_2776_23873.shtml
Just curious what you all think. :) The part I quoted below struck me, on account of I am one of those, and I've felt those looks from other positive people. Or at least hallucinated them. The looks, not the people. Well, actually I guess I can't be too sure about that. Anyway:
"Gay men who get infected today are out of their minds. They are the failed ones, the grave disappointments, the apathetic, the careless, the irresponsible. They spit upon the memories of our courageous dead. They have no respect for our history, for our monumental tragedy.
We might make motions to comfort them, but it is the kind of patronizing back-patting that we reserve for the truly stupid. We tell them they will be fine, really, and we don’t look them in the eyes for very long. Our weary judgment shows. "
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The writer of this quote is a middle-aged gay man and HIV+ since the 80s. The quote is a sort of speaking in tongues. Meaning he is writing it with the "we" - he's saying "we" think that way.
I don't think very many mature gay men would ever feel or think this way. Neither HIV+ nor HIV-. Maybe a few. Sorry for them. Its vile.
The author's use of the "we" fails his piece. Because I don't belong to the "we" -- I am offended by the author "speaking in tongues" - supposedly on my behalf, or supposedly a good part of the "community" (but iI think not) -- and writing such offensive, vile, hatred.
HIV- for many years I never felt that way about someone becoming positive. HIV+ for a few years, I haven't had anyone judge me in this way, expect myself for awhile, and then I got over the self judgment.
Nobody but nobody showed such me such a silly reaction as he proposes exists. Newly infected "spit on the memories of our courageous dead". ???? Please....
I think maybe its just bad writing. Hope so.
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To make sense of the quote, you need to read the whole artilce. Mark S King is representing a particular point of view in the quoted paras.
The piece exaggerates for emphasis but I find Mr King's hit a certain nail of the head (hard, as ever). Sure, it's not the whole story but I recognise a lot of the dynamic he sets out, even if it appears quietly and by stealth more than with obvious venom.
- matt
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I think that this article was wonderfully written,i think it rings true with alot of us here even though we might not be willing to admit it!!!!
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The part of the article that stood out the most for me was this paragraph:
Take a hard look at HIV-negative gay men. They are the superior ones, the corrupt morality police, the hypocrites, the gentlemen in waiting. Above all else they are the supremely lucky, because they can’t possibly live by the crushing code of conduct they impose on the rest of us.
It has been my experience that those who were the most judgemental/stigmatising in regard to hiv positive people (gay and straight) before their own diagnosis are the people who have the hardest time adjusting to being poz. They're quite often the ones who cower in the depths of the hiv closet, fully expecting others to judge them as they would have judged poz people before them. I find it heartbreaking.
Obviously (I hope it's obvious) I'm not talking about every negative person, nor every positive person, nor do I believe Mr King was either. There are plenty of these people about though, and I've seen more than my fair share of them both in this forum and in real life.
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I haven't read the article yet, but what I find the most off-putting is post-infection morality.
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I haven't read the article yet, but what I find the most off-putting is post-infection morality.
Could you elaborate please? I'm not sure what you're getting at. Maybe I'm just having a "senior moment", dunno.
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Could you elaborate please? I'm not sure what you're getting at. Maybe I'm just having a "senior moment", dunno.
I'm not getting at anything, just thinking out loud. Sometimes there seems to be a bit of a double standard. People post something and then are lectured about their behavior by people who have done the exact same thing. It just bothers me.
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As usual, Mark S. King is right on the money.
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Sure, sure. I didn't mean to pull a quote out of its context. It's just the one I was looking at at the the time. Mr. King is using rhetorical flourish. He spends the next few paragraphs framing other people this way, asking if be recognize the sound of stigma in all of these statements.
I'm pretty much always against soundbites. The quote was meant to be an intro to read the rest. ;)
To make sense of the quote, you need to read the whole artilce. Mark S King is representing a particular point of view in the quoted paras.
The piece exaggerates for emphasis but I find Mr King's hit a certain nail of the head (hard, as ever). Sure, it's not the whole story but I recognise a lot of the dynamic he sets out, even if it appears quietly and by stealth more than with obvious venom.
- matt
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I'm not getting at anything, just thinking out loud. Sometimes there seems to be a bit of a double standard. People post something and then are lectured about their behavior by people who have done the exact same thing. It just bothers me.
Well, now I'm confused as to not only what you're getting at, but also who you're getting at. :-\
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Personally I quite enjoy continually judging the behavior of everyone else.
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Well, now I'm confused as to not only what you're getting at, but also who you're getting at. :-\
Sorry, I can't understand your confusion. It's just an observation that is not directed at anyone in particular. Post- infection morality is when others judge people's behavior with a bit of condescension and without the caveat of "look I've been there, done that."
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Sorry, I can't understand your confusion. It's just an observation that is not directed at anyone in particular. Post- infection morality is when others judge people's behavior with a bit of condescension and without the caveat of "look I've been there, done that."
Fair enough. Chalk it down to a senior moment then. ;)
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I read the article three times, adjusting my context with each reading. What I take from Mark is the sound of stigma, in words that reflect the attitude of many segments of the HIV and the negative community. His words, while being his own, do not reflect his real views, rather they are constructed to illustrate the silence of stigma in the most powerful fashion possible, for the written word.
As I read each "viewpoint", I could recollect a specific place, person and time that reflected these attitudes to the letter. Sadly, I could remember many examples of all the stigma, that continues to this day. In a way, even after thirty years into this pandemic, some folks are still living for the thrill of demeaning others.
Through my eyes, the gay community has often seemed to be our own worst enemy. I never understood this need to demean others, especially given that we have almost always been viewed as abhorrent or worse. His analogy of a snake eating its tale seems apt indeed.
I've lived with most of the stigmas that the author references and his words right true to me for far too many folks. I will never understand how demeaning another human being can ever elevate anyone. I'm saddened by our collective loss of humanity for others, because that is the seed that must be sown, for stigma and discrimination to grow.
Joe