Has Manhunt destroyed gay culture?

[Dachshund]

"As a normative way of socializing for gay men, online cruising is a disaster. We need to recognize its effects -- including its tendency to isolate us, encourage objectification, and diminish our sense of life’s nonsexual possibilities -- as disasters. We need to recognize that too many of us, too much of the time, are cruising online because it is easier and feels safer than thinking about the love we are missing and the power we do not have. Too many of us, too much of the time, are cruising online because it’s easier and feels safer than mustering the courage, patience, discipline, and imagination required to help ourselves and each other become the men that, in our strongest moments, we want to be.

"Gary Cohan, a physician who treats half of A-list gay Hollywood, says we have to start thinking in a deliberate way about what normal social interaction consists of. “For a long time,” Cohan says, “it has been considered normal to be on the Net. We need to start thinking, That’s not normal.”

"We need to put our heads together and try to figure out what we want normative social life to look like. Whatever the answer turns out to be, it will involve creating social structures that serve and gratify our desire to have sex with each other and also promote and support the possibility of developing and sustaining intimate relationships. Gay men came close to the goal of building such a society when they were hit with the plague of AIDS. That generation learned the rewards of sacrifice and of setting limits on the place of sex in our culture. But to those of us who were children or teenagers during the epidemic, AIDS made coming out so scary that we preferred to avoid getting too involved in our gay forefathers’ world.

"And along came the Internet, a tool that let us build gay lives without having to get very involved with older people -- not that, if we’d wanted to, there were a whole lot of them still living. Now, though, it seems our avoidance has created a different kind of society, more isolating, more brutal, and weaker. We still don’t know how to have enduring relationships. We still don’t have examples. We still don’t have mentors. We still don’t have courtship rituals. We are still getting HIV.

"We celebrate the fact that we’re out to the straight world, even though the only thing that means, in many cases, is that they know we’re gay.

"When we logged on, I don’t think most of us realized we were creating new secret lives. I don’t think we knew what we were getting into. But we got into it. For most of us, this is not working. And if it’s not working for you, then it’s time to get off." - Michael Joseph Gross, in an Out Magazine story titled Has Manhunt Destroyed Gay Culture?

 










http://www.out.com/detail.asp?page=1&id=24005

[komnaes]

Er... cruising in a dangerous park at night for impersonal sex, also risking robbery and getting beat up, is less destructive?

[Miss Philicia]

Oh, this is just a bunch of drama from Luddite wannabees and veers into Kramer Preaching.  I mean honestly, manhunt is like cruising in the Ramble at Central Park.  wtf... stupid morons.  Sure, there are some people that overdo it on manhunt, just like there were some queens that overdid it in the park.

Now, I will say it's had a bit of an effect on gay areas in urban cities -- they're shrinking.  But think it's concurrent with the newer generation of gay guys not wanting to be holed up in gay segregated places... they mix in the trendy bars with the breeders now, as long as the breeders don't look/act like frat boys.

And because I think it's BS I kindly offer this token of affection:  the winner of Mr. Manhunt Brazil 2008!

[YaKaMein]

IMHO ... such articles are 'hogwash' and way 'off topic' ... LOL  -YaKa

[rick21007]

I live in Central Oregon--the biggest town is Bend, 72,000.  What we had for a gay community was a once-a-month mens dinner group, a hiking group for a little while and one bar that hosted queer night on Tuesdays.  Those are all gone now.  What we have instead is Craigslist----which is dominated by married men looking to get their rocks off.

rick

[Miss Philicia]

You can go to any HIV support group and most of the guys are more interested in getting laid than simply going to a movie during the week as friends.  This story is as old as the hills.  The issue isn't the internet, or whatever format of the month -- it's a story about losers.

[bear60]

Question:  I suppose this Dr Cohan is gay?

Comment: The new generation of LGBT people have a chance to make things better and I believe they will.  Gay marriage is one of the biggest steps yet.

[dixieman]

Gay culture? one has to have a culture before one can ruin it. All the sites I've seen online for promiscuity (nameless hookups) are just that... basically the same as one on one in various locations without the hastle to have to meet upfront and in person...

[DanielMark]

No idea what "Gay culture" is or what it means or if it even ever existed. I am a human being first and I tend to avoid any way of living that others would try to define for me. How strange am I? 

Daniel

[BlueMoon]

Manhunt (and others  ) worked fine for me.  Maybe this guy is just doing it wrong?   

[jkinatl2]

I tend to agree with Daschund's article, to a degree. The internet has created an isolation in urban centers that I have not seen before. In addition, unsafe behaviours are much easier to negotiate (and perpetuate) when under the guise of the internet persona. As as all know from even this site, what a person types, how they write, their cadences, et al (including things like gender, income/occupation, education, and other pertinent facts) are rarely exactly what they appear.

It's also helped fuel the meth-driven HIV pandemic to a degree that clubs simply do not. While I detest the "stand and model" aspect of many clubs, there is something to be said for human interaction, for a face and body to place together, for a personality (even a drunk/high one) to come through. Of course, if it comes down to looking for a pole pr a hole, one venue is probably as good as another. In addition, people online can feel freer to express fetishes and kinks that they would likely be embarrassed to mention during a conversation at a club or event.  Pros and cons, and all that.

It is, in my opinion, the difference between eating at a nice pizza place and ordering from Domino's. Sure, you get pizza. The quality never, ever looks the same as the static photo.

I am certainly no prude, and have utilized online sites in the past. But they feed on my agoraphobia, on the allure of the dark and forbidden, on the shameful. And on the deceptive. They are not community-building services, nor do I suspect were they meant to be.

But people are a lot looser and more free with the PNP there than in person, I have noticed.


*edited to add more stuff and for spelling

[Mouse]

You can think whatever you'd like about utilizing services like this, but it's simply vile to suggest that you can deduce so much about a person simply because they hooked up on the internet. That's just absurd. It's even worse to suggest that we SHOULD be passing judgment on people because of it like this article is pretty much encouraging.

Manhunt and sites like it are made up of consenting adults. They can do what they like. I personally don't care what goes on as long as no one is getting hurt.

And Manhunt encouraging objectification? LOL. As though gay men weren't obsessive objectifiers even before the internet was INVENTED. Let's not kid ourselves. If people want to serve themselves up as pieces of meat, they can knock themselves out doing it, but let's please not pretend that this is something that has come on with the internet. I was born in 1990 and I am STILL well aware of this.

Human beings being human beings are going to be into sex, and for many of us that means quick, free, anonymous sex and this would be happening with or without Manhunt. This isn't saying anything for accessibility, but to be honest, even if that does make it easier for people to engage in anonymous sex, that doesn't make sex the enemy even when it comes to HIV. I'm tired of seeing this.

[Miss Philicia]

I just find it amusing to sit and debate the relative merits of cruising on line vs. cruising in a park or cruising in a bar.  None of them are a white glove tea party environment.

Nobody's forcing any of you to do any of it.  Go fucking meet a guy at a bingo club in the gay community center.  Or a book reading at a gay bookstore... whatever.

It's nobody's fault but your own if you can't properly exercise a modicum of moderation in any of this.  Meth on the internet!  Barebacking hook ups!  Shut it down, shut it down!  CLOSE THE BATHS!

[Ann]

Meth on the internet!  Barebacking hook ups!  Shut it down, shut it down!  CLOSE THE BATHS!

My momma always told me to keep my legs crossed.

Did I listen?

Did I fuck.

Society's to blame... shut it down!

[komnaes]

CLOSE THE BATHS!

They did already in San Francisco, and look what happened! 

[jkinatl2]

Sorry to have offended anyone. I stand by my opinions.

*edited to add

The notion that this stuff has no bearing on the community, and that consenting adults do not cause harm to anyone outside their circle is precisely the point that the article was making. Meth use, bareback orgies, these things used to be kind of hard to find. You had to know people. You had to get invited to the after-party.  I have had no fewer than four smart, savvy people (including my ex) discover meth and become infected with HIV. One through sex clubs, the others through the net. True, these were consenting adults, and as such have the right to do with their bodies what they want. But to assume that this does not impact the community and culture as a whole is absurd.

Meth use and HIv infections have done real damage to the medical community, both in terms of cost and reducing the number of dedicated physicians due to low copays and burnout. My own experiences with doctors has been one of burnout after burnout, and without private insurance, ridiculously substandard care due to the amazing number of patients a doctor must see each day in order to break even.

yes, internet hookups and objectification have been around forever. And yes, it is indeed up to each of us to take personal responsibility. But to assume that the net has not changed the face of drugs and sex in the gay community is simply wrong, in my opinion.  And it does impact us all.

Take this site for example. I have, in the past, had terribly contentious conversations and "relationships" with posters who were, to put it mildly, total douchebags online. Yet when I have met them in person, they were sweet, nice, polite. And trust me, it's not like they were afraid i would punch them in the head. I have never, EVER had words spoken to my face as full of vitriol and spite as I have read here.

The internet allows people to be someone else. And quite often, in my experience, that "someone else" is not an improvement over the original. That is my experience, it is my opinion, and it certainly impacts my willingness to share one iota of personal information online.

Which is sad, because I do have opinions, and things I'd love to talk about.

Anyhow, like i said, sorry to stir the pot.

[Mouse]

Sorry to have offended anyone. I stand by my opinions.

I'm not offended! As a clarification anything I posted was in response to the article and not your post.

[Miss Philicia]

Jonathan, you didn't offend me at all.  I understand you points, I just don't think that they're practical in any sort of application except as I described them -- self control.  I still don't find it (manhunt, etc.) that much different than a gay bar -- well, assuming you lived right on -- say, Christopher Street.  It's like my best friend who lived 5 blocks from The Ramble -- he was there every night.  That's no different than manhunt, and that was pre-internet when he was doing it.

Now, I will concede that it's made it all much more different for less urban folks than it was pre-internet.  But I'm rather parochial in that regards as I've lived in a downtown area of very large cities for over 20 years now.  I probably should have included this fact in my "opinion" (which I stand by as well).

[thunter34]

Sorry to have offended anyone. I stand by my opinions.

*edited to add

The notion that this stuff has no bearing on the community, and that consenting adults do not cause harm to anyone outside their circle is precisely the point that the article was making. Meth use, bareback orgies, these things used to be kind of hard to find. You had to know people. You had to get invited to the after-party.  I have had no fewer than four smart, savvy people (including my ex) discover meth and become infected with HIV. One through sex clubs, the others through the net. True, these were consenting adults, and as such have the right to do with their bodies what they want. But to assume that this does not impact the community and culture as a whole is absurd.

Meth use and HIv infections have done real damage to the medical community, both in terms of cost and reducing the number of dedicated physicians due to low copays and burnout. My own experiences with doctors has been one of burnout after burnout, and without private insurance, ridiculously substandard care due to the amazing number of patients a doctor must see each day in order to break even.

yes, internet hookups and objectification have been around forever. And yes, it is indeed up to each of us to take personal responsibility. But to assume that the net has not changed the face of drugs and sex in the gay community is simply wrong, in my opinion.  And it does impact us all.

Take this site for example. I have, in the past, had terribly contentious conversations and "relationships" with posters who were, to put it mildly, total douchebags online. Yet when I have met them in person, they were sweet, nice, polite. And trust me, it's not like they were afraid i would punch them in the head. I have never, EVER had words spoken to my face as full of vitriol and spite as I have read here.

The internet allows people to be someone else. And quite often, in my experience, that "someone else" is not an improvement over the original. That is my experience, it is my opinion, and it certainly impacts my willingness to share one iota of personal information online.

Which is sad, because I do have opinions, and things I'd love to talk about.

Anyhow, like i said, sorry to stir the pot.

There's something to be said about that.  I mean...you can log on now on hookup sites and go straight for the "slam rooms" (where you actually watch one another shoot up online).  That's something ya just couldn't do as easily offline.  The effect was just never the same over the telephone. 

All told, I don't know if it's so much the net being a "bad" or "good" anything.  It's just doing what technology does - make it faster and easier with increasingly less effort on our parts.  And it seems to be acting like a pretty effective leveler in some respects.  While it may be pulling people further apart in urban areas, it's also throwing out a line to people like myself in more rural areas.

Now everyone has equal opportunity to feel disillusioned and isolated.   

[Miss Philicia]

There's something to be said about that.  I mean...you can log on now on hookup sites and go straight for the "slam rooms" (where you actually watch one another shoot up online).  That's something ya just couldn't do as easily offline.  The effect was just never the same over the telephone. 

I'll be happy to take you to some shooting galleries and play with junkies when you come visit Philadelphia.

[GSOgymrat]

Take this site for example. I have, in the past, had terribly contentious conversations and "relationships" with posters who were, to put it mildly, total douchebags online. Yet when I have met them in person, they were sweet, nice, polite. And trust me, it's not like they were afraid i would punch them in the head. I have never, EVER had words spoken to my face as full of vitriol and spite as I have read here.

Barbara, please.

There are MUCH more offensive boards on the internet than this forum. I post on the Bodybulding.com forum and there are people on there that make me question the fate of human kind.  Check out the Misc forum.

This talk of lack of gay intimacy is a broken record that has been playing since two gay neanderthals rubbed their two sticks together and created fire. Anonymous sex is bad, bad, bad and you gays that go to parks and rest stops and bookstores and baths and internet chat rooms are all going to grow old alone or get AIDS and no one will ever love you. You should go to church and be in a support group and find a cause and settle down and get married. Why back in the good old days we had community...

Excuse me but when exactly was this Golden Age? Gay life now is SO much easier than when I was a teen. You don't have to leave home and move to a big city. You don't have to go to smoke-filled bars to find a boyfriend or a sex partner. You don't have to speak in code (I think he's Lutheran) or wear a stupid colored hankie. Things have opened up so much that you can freakin' GET LEGALLY MARRIED which was completely outer limits 30 years ago. To quote Carly Simon: these are the good old days. Gays have more opportunities now to be whatever we want to be, to have whatever kind of relationship we want, be it marriage and kids or meth fueled bareback orgies. The internet has helped create all these opportunities.

And to add, if not for this forum I wouldn't know anyone, other than my partner, with whom I could talk about HIV. I went to a HIV support group when I was first diagnosed and it was a disaster. If not for the people on this forum I would be less informed and a lot more lonely and isolated.

[aliveinla]

For me it's adam4adam, that's where all my great hookups came from. Somehow manhunt encounters were never as good as they appeared to be.

[thunter34]

Gays have more opportunities now to be whatever we want to be, to have whatever kind of relationship we want, be it marriage and kids or meth fueled bareback orgies.

Eep.  Between the two, I still vote for meth fueled bareback orgies.  Sorry.  Just sayin'.

[David_CA]

In smaller town and rural areas, the options to meet other gay men are sparse.  The internet has surely helped in that respect.  In fact, I've met quite a few friends (not only sex buddies) on gay sites.  Back in the day, when AOL was big around here, an online friend got my hubby and I talking.  A chat on the phone and then a late-night dinner was all it took.  Nine years later we're still together.  Personally, I'm very thankful for such services. 

[Miss Philicia]

I think my all time strangest internet hookup was from (clutch the pearls) a yahoo chat room in the late 90's.  I pranced all the way up to the South Bronx for it, and he turned out to be this bizarre Santería priest from Puerto Rico, his tiny living room complete with a tower of "Orisha" urns that contained spirits, and I was not allowed to look inside of any of them.

I must say, however, that he was certainly one of most enthusiastic rimmers I've ever encountered, and I've met my fair share.  He just chugged along for what seemed like hours... obviously enjoyed that more than anything in life, other than his priestly duties.  I'd just had anal wart surgery months earlier so my ass lips were like an orchid.

I will qualify my opinions on this topic, and say that I still prefer "the hunt" that occurs in a bar.  Bathhouses have a similar hunt, but they're usually more desperate than in a bar.  I always love the "posey" aspect of a bar, only because I excelled in it.  Of course, you end up spending a fortune on top shelf vodka during an expedition.  I was such a bar fly for a while that I didn't even have to do more than walk up to the bar -- they'd recite my drink with it's slight special preparation and a large smile.

Of course, it wasn't until the internet that I managed to crack the secret Jamaican underground.  That's where the really huge hogs live.

[David_CA]

Eep.  Between the two, I still vote for meth fueled bareback orgies.  Sorry.  Just sayin'.

Now Timmy, the two aren't mutually exclusive, you know.

[thunter34]

Now Timmy, the two aren't mutually exclusive, you know.

Remind me not to recommend you as a sitter.   

[Miss Philicia]

I used to know this queen that was so into internet meth orgies that he'd sometimes pawn his computer to pay his overdue broadband fees and dealer.  Now THAT'S fierce.

[jkinatl2]

No offense. GSO, but our relationship is exactly one of those contentious ones I mentioned. I am sure you are a very nice person, in person. People of high repute have vouched for you. But for some reason, I seem to rub you the wrong way, and vice versa.

perhaps you WOULD say "Barbara please" to me in person. But unless we had a long history, I would see it as a disrespectful and dismissive. A little respect goes an awful long way.

i KNOW there are other forums who have flame wars which make the WORST of AM look like a walk in the park. That's why I don't participate in them. How silly for me to bring the very worst of humanity into my apartment through my internet connection, right? But there have certainly been some flamefests here, and people who are not who they pretend to be (in every, increasingly evil incarnation of that term). This is not a bodybuilding forum. This is a support and information site for people who have a serious illness. I would hold a breast or colon cancer site to similarly strict standards. many of us are raw, some of us are sick, a few of us are dying. Most of us are scared at one point or another. It's a whole different ball of wax than, say, a hobby forum or even a fitness forum for the otherwise healthy.


For the record, I never spoke of a Golden Age. There have been different times, and different technologies, each one creates it's own opportunities and problems. I used to live in midtown Atlanta, and enjoyed the twenty-four hour club scene to the fullest. Moving a dozen miles away really did change a lot.

(this is really directed at philly, who brought up the salient point of urban centers and their influence on attitudes and accessibility. Things here in the ATL have changed, de-centralized an awful lot. It was never really a walking town for the gay folks, and with the gentrification of the heart of the gay midtown area, it is even less so)

I stopped going out quite so much when I moved a bit to the north, though fully supported the club scene for anyone who wanted to partake. I mourned when the city suspended/revoked all twenty-four hour club licenses. And when the midtown club scene, the gay area in general, became too pricey for gay people to live there, I saw a real difference in the population. What used to be almost all-gay apartments became yuppie co-ops and condos. Bars and dance halls were bulldozed in favor of condos and high rises that went for hundreds of thousands of dollars. There became few places for guys to walk from place to place, and though there are still some wonderful enclaves, it's nothing like the "gay ghetto" that it was.

Gay guys in Atlanta DO live in midtown, in the historically gay districts. But more and more, they live in the suburbs, or the near-burbs. Places where they can afford. Which is NOT necessarily a bad thing. It's just a change. And part of that change is reflected by the internet hookup sites. Yes, there are (and have always been) sex clubs and baths in the city. And yep, the adult novelty shops still have booths for sexual activity. I simply fail to understand why someone does not see the difference between having a place where someone has to make the effort to visit as opposed to a delivery service that removes even that minimal effort.

And frankly, what two consenting adults do is their own business. But to pretend that the community has not changed boggles my mind. Some of the changes I applaud, and am happy to see. Some, especially the meth/HIV connection, threaten to undo decades of safer sex education - as noted in the continued rise of new infections among gay men EVEN as more and more civil and legal rights have been hard won. I don't blame meth solely for the infection rate, of course. But the disenfranchisement which comes with isolationism cannot be overlooked.

In my opinion.



Sorry to go on so long. I cannot honestly think of anything I can add to the discussion.

[Miss Philicia]

I simply fail to understand why someone does not see the difference between having a place where someone has to make the effort to visit as opposed to a delivery service that removes even that minimal effort.

Oh, I see it -- I just don't find it important unless one has a sex addiction issue.  It's just like meth fueled orgies don't bother me, because I'm not a meth addict.

Someone with either of those issues is still going to get their fix.

As far as "the community changing" well, what can you say?  Cities, societies, communities... all feature constant change.  The entire OP article is ridiculous because of its use of "normative way of socializing" -- sounds like something Tony Perkins would cook up.

[David_CA]

And to think people say that queens are so dramatic!

[fearless]

Whatever the answer turns out to be, it will involve creating social structures that serve and gratify our desire to have sex with each other and also promote and support the possibility of developing and sustaining intimate relationships. Gay men came close to the goal of building such a society when they were hit with the plague of AIDS. That generation learned the rewards of sacrifice and of setting limits on the place of sex in our culture.

What a lot of rot. My recollection of Sydney pre-AIDS was that it was one big drug filled orgy. To suggest that gay men had come close to building some ideal society is rubbish and nostaligic clap trap.

[aztecan]

Many of you all are too young, with the exception of Joel, Philly and Steve, to remember what life was like BA (before AIDS), which as it happens, was also BI (Before Internet).

If people went to the bars, baths and other meeting places just to hook up, get off and go home, then you are correct, nothing has changed, You can just get off quicker with the internet, and lie a lot easier.

You can't hide much when all you are wearing is a small towel - folded in half!

I enjoyed more than my share of sex, whether it was at a bathhouse, the backroom of a club or at a residence. But I also enjoyed many wonderful evenings when hooking up was not the main event, nor did I care that it wasn't.

We had actual conversations, not typed and hyped internet babble or, Goddes forbid, text messaging.

We also were members of organizations that used to do really bizarre things - like go camping. Others were square dancers. Why there were even occasions when gays and lesbians interacted socially. 

The original article had some valid points and did Jonathan's response. It isn't that I am railing against internet sex, but I can see how it is inhibiting the socialization of gay people.

It is like when I hear "gay" men who say, "I'm not into the gay scene or bars."

OK, what are they into? I have news for them, nobody looks straight when they're down on their knees. There are even lyrics to a "gay" song that discuss this very topic;

People may think I am digressing, but this is right on track. Without the cohesion of gay society, we have nothing to bind us and help us stand in support of each other.

It was that cohesion that allowed the gay community to come together and help those living - or rather succumbing to AIDS in the early days.

It sure as hell wasn't the internet wizards lending a helping hand, or Ronald (thank goddess that fucking vegetable is dead ) Reagan who came to the aid of his fellow countrymen.

It was the members of the gay community who came together, who protested (ask Peter Staley, he was there), and who changed the depends of those whose bowels were no longer controllable.

It sure wasn't the xristians, muslims, jews or athiests, or any of their ilk.

The only connecting factor was their sexuality.

Its rather like the AM gatherings. While there are many people I enjoy reading here, once I got to meet them in the flesh and spend a week  with them, they became my AM family, not just a bunch of people posting on a website.

While I believe there are good points to the internet, I also see its shortcomings and the effects those shortcomings are having on gay society and society as a whole

Just my 2¢ worth.

HUGS,

Mark

[Miss Philicia]

Many of you all are too young, with the exception of Joel, Philly and Steve, to remember what life was like BA (before AIDS),

And Mary please... I ain't old enough to know much pre-AIDS.  I was 16 when it first appeared.

And no offense darling, but you live in bumfuck sagebrush territory now -- how are you sure there aren't gay square dancing events still going on?

[aztecan]

And Mary please... I ain't old enough to know much pre-AIDS.  I was 16 when it first appeared.

And no offense darling, but you live in bumfuck sagebrush territory now -- how are you sure there aren't gay square dancing events still going on?

 

I knew that would get you!

Actually, I think the square dancers are still around, as are the gay pagans. 

But at the same time, there are only two gay bars and one lesbian bar left in Albuquerque. the rest have disappeared.

I know there aren't fewer fags out there, so they must be hooking up from some other location, which is probably the internet.

By the way, when will you come to visit? I know this delightful morman man who enjoys a fling in the sling - but only when he can get away from the wife and five kids.

Gotta luv the net.

[Mouse]

Do you think if we set up a hookup site for gay square dancers they will start to dissipate, too? 

[Miss Philicia]

By the way, when will you come to visit? I know this delightful morman man who enjoys a fling in the sling - but only when he can get away from the wife and five kids.

Gotta luv the net.

I actually may visit at some point, in Albuquerque.  My oldest girlfriend that I met in 1st grade lives there now.  It's hard to believe that I still know someone I met in 1st grade, but there you go.

[LatinAlexander]

Actually, I think the square dancers are still around, as are the gay pagans. 

Just for the sake of Queer culture knowledge. What are Square dancers and Gay Pagans?

LatinAlexander (Wondering about how the world was)

[loop78]

The internet ate my homework!

Well, not really, but it's obviously an evil evil thing. The same as anonymous sex or Martha Stewart.

Now, seriously, only Martha is really evil.

The internet has stirred lots of social changes, as tv did not so long ago or any technical advance of real relevance. We can keep mourning for the golden old times, or adapt and take advantage of what's on offer.

That being said, I don't see any link between meth use and the net. I've been online for ages, and everytime i've seen meth use, it's been in real life. Same with the club culture: here it's still blooming at the same time as online hook-up sites. I believe that if the internet has meant somewhere the disappearance of clubs, it's been because of fear of being identified as gay and homophobia. It's been quite a long time since pizza delivery appeared in our lives, and still we keep going to Italian restaurants.


And to add a geeky side to my answer...

http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=jhTxRssxfuI

[mjmel]

Just for the sake of Queer culture knowledge. What are Square dancers and Gay Pagans?

LatinAlexander (Wondering about how the world was)

Dear, dear, Alex...

some square dancing for your viewing pleasure (high probability of some gay pagans in their mist):
http://hk.youtube.com/watch?v=_9oSw_MqPTg
http://hk.youtube.com/watch?v=iOOjhIeZWOg&NR=1

 

[GSOgymrat]

No offense. GSO, but our relationship is exactly one of those contentious ones I mentioned. I am sure you are a very nice person, in person. People of high repute have vouched for you. But for some reason, I seem to rub you the wrong way, and vice versa.

perhaps you WOULD say "Barbara please" to me in person. But unless we had a long history, I would see it as a disrespectful and dismissive. A little respect goes an awful long way.

I would only say "Barbara please" to you in person if I liked you and felt comfortable with you. I'm not saying it on here to dismiss you. I just couldn't let your comment about people on this forum being so horrible to you go unchallenged. The "golden age" comment was referring back to the tone of the original article. I agree with you that the gay ghetto is fading and I agree that it is not necessarily a bad thing. Part of that change is because all kinds of people are wanting to live in cities again, which is great!

And on the subject of gay culture, it seems gay cruises are becoming the hot new way to socialize for those who can afford them, thus demonstrating that if there is a void someone will find a way to fill it and make a profit.

[atlq]

Excuse me but when exactly was this Golden Age? Gay life now is SO much easier than when I was a teen. You don't have to leave home and move to a big city. You don't have to go to smoke-filled bars to find a boyfriend or a sex partner. You don't have to speak in code (I think he's Lutheran) or wear a stupid colored hankie. Things have opened up so much that you can freakin' GET LEGALLY MARRIED which was completely outer limits 30 years ago. To quote Carly Simon: these are the good old days. Gays have more opportunities now to be whatever we want to be, to have whatever kind of relationship we want, be it marriage and kids or meth fueled bareback orgies. The internet has helped create all these opportunities.

And to add, if not for this forum I wouldn't know anyone, other than my partner, with whom I could talk about HIV. I went to a HIV support group when I was first diagnosed and it was a disaster. If not for the people on this forum I would be less informed and a lot more lonely and isolated.

Exactly.....Are there new issues surrounding human interaction and the internet that we should thoughtfully address?

Sure, but to paraphrase some British guy from a while back..." The fault, dear Brutus, is not in our stars (or the iinternet),
but in ourselves..."

[Iggy]

I think everything can be taken out of context if one wishes.

I don't know the world pre-AIDS (at least at a sexually active age) but I did know and operate in a world pre-internet:

• When I was a teen I got crabs in Central Park several times as well as skirted two bashing attacks there, and had to help one guy who had just gotten attacked.  I also was almost arrested there once with a cop car shining a light on me mid act.
  
  My wallet was stolen at a video arcade on the West side Highway (which afterwards I learned to place it in my shoe whenever I went to such places)
  
  Twice I hooked up with guys I met in a bar who seemed great until we got to their respective place and they went 180 on me and I had to basically run for the nearest exit.
  
  I also would find myself spending ridiculous amounts of money (for my after school job income) in bars on cover charges and beers (and tips...but at least then one could expect buybacks from the bartenders on a regular basis then) not to mention time.
  
  And for all the guys who are written off as meth addicts who stay up all night on Manhunt, I can remember just as many alcoholics who would spend every night in the bars.  Granted I think Meth is a more powerful and destructive addiction, but I think in the context of "gay culture" both can be cited in their time as a destructive force in the gay community.

All that said, I do agree that there is something lost in the ease of sex hook-ups (or at least pursuit of sex hook-ups) online.   

It does make it harder to have chance encounters with people you might connect with for reasons other then just sex.  Also, the basic nature of how we connect online in places like manhunt (which focus on individual advertisements that that feature primarily just a picture(s) and often generic text along with pat answers to broad questions like Party: yes or no) does encourage (though not require) a more shallow criteria for how one chooses to contact another.

I also get something that Jonathan mentioned above about dialogue online vs. offline. 

While I agree that it is true that some people find their courage online where they can say things through a keyboard that they wouldn't say in a face to face setting, there is also an equally large issue of how the written word can not convey something as simple as a tone of voice or facial expressions (I know there are webcam groups out there, but I'm focusing on things like manhunt and basic interent type hook-ups). 

The bottom line for me is that gay culture, like any culture is affected by the times and the events of the times.  I don't see Manhunt any more responsible for the destruction of gay culture then I do a fluff magazine like OUT which glorifies through their pictorial and advertisement choices  smooth twinks with no body fat as the acceptable and desirable image of gay men.

Like I said, it's all in the context.

[Matty the Damned]

Oy! The Stupid! It Burns!!!

MtD 
(Who notes this to be the Dumbest Thread Ever)

[LatinAlexander]

Dear, dear, Alex...

some square dancing for your viewing pleasure (high probability of some gay pagans in their mist):
http://hk.youtube.com/watch?v=_9oSw_MqPTg
http://hk.youtube.com/watch?v=iOOjhIeZWOg&NR=1

 

WOW, nice!!!!!. I mean, they seem to really enjoy. But I think that is not really something for me, cause I am not a good dancer, I guess.

Thank you

Alex

[David_CA]

And on the subject of gay culture, it seems gay cruises are becoming the hot new way to socialize for those who can afford them, thus demonstrating that if there is a void someone will find a way to fill it and make a profit.

And, for several members of these forums, gay camgrounds are a great way to socialize with other gay men.  They're certainly cheaper than a cruise (assuming one is relatively close), safer than parks, and full of the interaction that's absent from internet hook-ups / meetings.

As to people being nice in person and abusive online... I've noticed the inverse just as often.  There are a few members here who I liked online but have really seen them show their asses in person. 

I'm sure somewhere somebody said that telephones, radios, and televisions were ruining society.  I do see a change as we (gay men and women) become more mainstream and integrated.  I'm not so sure that it's because of the internet, though.  I think it's just the natural evolution that occurs over time.  There is, however, a certain attraction (at least to me) to being somewhat out of the mainstream, to having 'our' bars in seedy parts of town, etc.  There is a certain freedom that gay men seem to have that's absent in straight men.  A lot of this is likely due to marriage / families.  I just hope that when we are able to marry that we retain some of our 'uniqueness'. 

[Miss Philicia]

This thread reminds me of when my parents refused to use ATM cards when they first came out, because they preferred the human touch of a bank teller window.  Of course, they love their ATM cards now.

[Iggy]

Does anyone still use ATM cards?

[Miss Philicia]

Well, I suppose technically they're all called "debit cards" now, no?  Then again, I do not work at a bank.  I've had a Visa logo on my debit card now for 20 years, as I signed up with them when they first came out.  My parents will not use the card for point-of-sale debits anywhere, only in a bank machine.  I think they use the "we want mileage points" now though.

I've trained my parents to be technically savy and progressive by now.  They're fully on board with FIOS, cell phones and computers now -- though I have to troubleshoot something every time I visit.

[Iggy]

I think they use the "we want mileage points" now though.

Which brings us back full circle to Manhunt

[Miss Philicia]

Which brings us back full circle to Manhunt

I'd still rather have a fun night at the Bijou on E. 4th St. (aka The Winter Ramble) -- I'm sure you're familiar with that unmarked red door.  Plus they always had a bowl of free oreos next to the condoms that nobody touched.

[Iggy]

I'm sure you're familiar with that unmarked red door. 

When I lived on E12th/2nd I was a regular.  Wonderbar (pre-lounge makeover) for some cold Jaggermeister shots with Anita Cocktail first, piss break on curry row second, and then the Bijou where I would have staring contests with people who wouldn't give up a booth despite them not getting any interested parties.

I stopped going around the time Guiliani began his crack done ('93-'94?) that had them shine bright floodlights in many of the areas and put lockers in many of the group rooms. 

Now that I think about it, that is about the time that I started to utilize online hook-up sites.

So there you go. Guiliani is to blame for the state of gay culture today.

[woodshere]

No matter the venue: Manhunt, public parks, baths, bars or adult book stores all are outlets for cruising for sex.  We use which ever one works best, for me it has always been the later.  Manhunt has just taken the search for our desire to a new level.  With just a click we pretty much know everything we need in deciding if this is the guy to do the nasty with - top, above average uncut cock, into WS, rimming, FF, discipline, enjoys opera and knitting.  Better to know before hooking up than to cruise a hot guy that you really want only to find out when you finally hook up he is a big o' nellie bottom.

My problem with the internet is that you lose the human element.  Voice inflections, facial gestures, rolling eyes, etc that add greatly to conversations.  Plus there is no accountability to anyone for some of the vile things that are said.  I have never had anyone walk up to me in a bar, restaurant or some cruising venue and call me a "Poz Skank" like I have online.

Things change, manhunt will probably fall by the wayside when the next "thing" comes along, much the way 8 track tapes were replaced by the cassette.

[pozattitude]

They did already in San Francisco, and look what happened! 

yeah, I have to drive over the bridge all the way to Berkeley now... 

[Miss Philicia]

people who wouldn't give up a booth despite them not getting any interested parties.

We called them "campers" and they were majorly tired.  And before anyone gets the *cough* wrong idea about Philicia, though I lived a mere 5 blocks away I was not a Bijou regular (though I did once lose my apartment keys in Booth 13)

[Miss Philicia]

Plus there is no accountability to anyone for some of the vile things that are said.  I have never had anyone walk up to me in a bar, restaurant or some cruising venue and call me a "Poz Skank" like I have online.

Perhaps that's because in a seedy, smelly adult bookstore booth you're not wearing a "Hello" stickie on your shirt that says "My name is Poz"?

[ozzie]

Things change, manhunt will probably fall by the wayside when the next "thing" comes along, much the way 8 track tapes were replaced by the cassette.

the next big thing .... virtual reality! 

[BubbaPat]

I just came across this topic and I need to say…. WOW!!

Going back to the original concept.... yes, it is destroying the gay culture... along with the straight.  At the same time, culture is something is destroyed and born everyday.

The anonymous nature of it all is I think the draw.  Ask yourself, how many of you speak with your neighbors?  Do you know their names?  Do you get home from work and head in doors?  Do you at least wave or say hello when you see them.

Questions to ask.

Bubba hugs!
Patrick

[Miss Philicia]

I don't speak much to my neighbors, no.  That's life in a city apartment building.  You say a terse "hello" in the hallway and that's basically it.  You don't socialize.  Again, there's some context here of urban vs. rural and how we view the social effects of the internet.  Whether you see it as some disturbing, nefarious thing I'd suspect is somewhat dependent on this.  It's also regional.  People in northeastern cities have different urban social mores than they do in, say the south.  People in the south have that dreadfully annoying habit of cheerfully saying hello every 5 seconds to absolutely everybody.

I have no idea what people do in California, nor do I want to know.

[Mouse]

I don't speak much to my neighbors, no.  That's life in a city apartment building.  You say a terse "hello" in the hallway and that's basically it.  You don't socialize.  Again, there's some context here of urban vs. rural and how we view the social effects of the internet.  Whether you see it as some disturbing, nefarious thing I'd suspect is somewhat dependent on this.  It's also regional.  People in northeastern cities have different urban social mores than they do in, say the south.  People in the south have that dreadfully annoying habit of cheerfully saying hello every 5 seconds to absolutely everybody.

I have no idea what people do in California, nor do I want to know.

If I had neighbors like yours, I wouldn't speak to them either. :|

[Miss Philicia]

If I had neighbors like yours, I wouldn't speak to them either. :|

Ah, you must mean the homophobic, AIDS-phobic kitchen knife set burning meth-&-manhunt addict that lives below me, who is actually gay and infected with AIDS?  Oh yeah, she's a major nasty piece of work, with that endless fresh supply of supple 18 year old flesh imported for nightly seeding.  I'm tempted to alert the PA Dept. of Health.

The other people aren't so bad.

[Mouse]

Ah, you must mean the homophobic, AIDS-phobic kitchen knife set burning meth-&-manhunt addict that lives below me, who is actually gay and infected with AIDS?  Oh yeah, she's a major nasty piece of work, with that endless fresh supply of supple 18 year old flesh imported for nightly seeding.  I'm tempted to alert the PA Dept. of Health.

The other people aren't so bad.

Isn't that the same neighbor that put up the vile pieces of 'artwork' in your hallways? 

[David_CA]

The anonymous nature of it all is I think the draw.  Ask yourself, how many of you speak with your neighbors?  Do you know their names?  Do you get home from work and head in doors?  Do you at least wave or say hello when you see them.

Actually, we do say hello to them just about every day.  You do not make eye contact with somebody in the South and not say hello (or at least wave and/or smile).  To obviously avoid eye contact, and thus avoid the hello thing, would be extremely rude.  It would be very uncommon for us to be outside and somebody walk by in the street or on the sidewalk and not wave, smile, or say hello.  Then again, this is the South.  I'm not as sociable outside much in the summer; it's just too damned hot - it was 97° outside yesterday when I got home!

[bear60]

Many of you all are too young, with the exception of Joel, Philly and Steve, to remember what life was like BA (before AIDS), which as it happens, was also BI (Before Internet)." quote Mark

I feel as though I need to say something...anything...in response to Marks invitation to speak.  I've been trying to remember what it WAS like and here are a few examples:
In 1967 I was in San Francisco to "experience" the HIPPIE takeover of Haight Asbury and Castro. Castro was gay gay gay and guys came from all over the country just to hang out on Castro.  Gay bars were packed.  Complimentary finger nail files ( no complimentary condoms in those days)...complimentary tins  of crisco. Bars bars bars...but at the same time I remember there being a sense of freedom and wonder just to be THERE in San Francisco and be part in some small way of the ultimate takeover of society in the USA.  We had big plans.  Nixon had to go....and then WE would get elected to office and change the laws to DECRIMINALIZE HOMOSEXUALITY  and  have the medical profession change the classification of homosexuality from  ABNORMAL to NORMAL.  I think to deny that there was ever a sense of unity in the face of adversity is absurd. There were significant GAY LIBERATION organizations in New York and San Francisco.  Well, of course Nixon knew for SURE by then that the commies were going to take over and the shootings of the students at Kent State University just confirmed that we were in for a big fight.  How the man ever became impeached is beyond me since we kind of expected a totalitarian state to emerge with him as MONARCH. Anyway....oh yea...gay culture. That IS gay culture.....the organizing, the coming together to  fight for our CIVIL RIGHTS and SEXUAL FREEDOM was gay culture in the pre AIDS era. Bars and sex and drugs were sort of like a side effect of the GAY RIGHTS movement.  More and more people were OUT and COMING OUT became a BIG DEAL and even today there is a COMING OUT FESTIVAL  here in Philadelphia.  So we went out and marched for gay pride and then went and had meth fueled sex orgies...or whatever your drug of choice was. Drugs and the "drug culture" did kind of get out of hand, but we knew that would have to change......BUT BEFORE ANYONE COULD SAY "BARBARA STRIESAND" WE HAD AIDS TO DEAL WITH and all of the organizing that went into GAY RIGHTS quickly switched to Act Up and organizing ASO's and trying to get medicines released to treat HIV.....so if you want to thank GAY CULTURE for your ASO's go right ahead you have my permission.
Then all my friends died.
Then the internet came along...as yet to prove its worth. But I would say AIDSMEDS is a "good" outcome of the internet.
So those are my thoughts.

[bear60]

Oh and this:
quote Mouse..."Do you think if we set up a hookup site for gay square dancers they will start to dissipate, too?  "

GOOD point! Of course they wouldnt dissipate.....honey ....they would be trading dress patterns in a flash and getting ready for the big hoe down.

[GSOgymrat]

Yes, I know all my neighbors and always speak and wave. It is very Wisteria Lane. We take care of the neighbor's dog, kids come to the door with cookies, people have holiday parties and cookouts etc. The neighbor behind us had their house catch fire and they lived with the neighbor across from them for two months. Our neighborhood has an association that will address an unkempt lawn with Nazi-like efficiency. I don't know if this is a Southern thing or not. I knew my neighbors when I lived in Seattle and Los Angeles too.

[shadowfluid]

Getting laid from clicking a button is just so much easier (for us passive-aggressives ) than actually setting that up in person. -Mike (who gets hit on online...as opposed to in person)

[aztecan]

Of course I know my neighbors. I see them all the time, we always wave and often have communal barbecues or cookouts for the entire neighborhood.

Children come to my door to give me cookies or ask me to buy something to support this or that. Their parents don't think twice about it.

People walking by always say hi, or I speak to them. We often share garden produce and stories over the back fence and the neighbor's dog thinks I am part of his family. (I am not crazy about dogs, but what can I say.)

If someone needs a hand unloading something, people always are ready to lend a hand. It is just the way it is.

We watch out for each other and keep an eye on each other's houses and yards. Anything unusual or people who are not known lurking about merits a visit from the police, called by our watchful neighbors.

My pellet stove was putting out a lot of smoke last year. I had five neighbors call to make sure the house wasn't on fire.

So, I guess the answer is yes, I know my neighbors, they know me. They don't care that I'm gay or that I have HIV.

I guess those easterners don't live this way. Pity.

HUGS,

Mark

[Miss Philicia]

I guess those easterners don't live this way. Pity.

Hee.  No, it's really more just in the city, not out in the burbs and country small towns.  I did specifically use the word "city" in my original comment.

I live in a 4-story pre-1900 townhouse on a main boulevard with 6 apartments.  There are probably 500 people just on one block.  I said I say "hello" to people in the hallways.  I guess that's like waving at someone over a fence where you live.  Do you realize what the turnover rate is of tenants in a rental building?  I've been here 3 years and I'm already the 2nd oldest tenant.  It was the same thing when I lived in NYC.

By "socialize" I was meaning more like having dinner with them, going to a movie or something.  I do have friends like that in the immediate neighborhood -- one couple 2 blocks away and another couple 7 blocks away.

[OneTampa]

I can give you a further twist.

I met two very good friends of 30 years  (both passed away a few years ago) through a "looking for friends" newspaper ad back in 1973. When we met, it was like we were destined to be friends. We had some fun times!

I met my first partner of 20 years and fresh out of the military on a greyhound bus traveling through Richmond.  I remember I was eating homemade pound cake and sipping on a coke. We used to laugh years later remembering how we first met.

[redhotmuslbear]

My pellet stove was putting out a lot of smoke last year. I had five neighbors call to make sure the house wasn't on fire.  So, I guess the answer is yes, I know my neighbors, they know me. They don't care that I'm gay or that I have HIV.

I guess those easterners don't live this way. Pity.

I'm so glad that I missed the bulk of this thread, but not all East Coast city dwellers live in a chosen state of isolation from those who live near them.  Admittedly, my partner and I are not super-social with everyone on the block, mostly because several of the men are hetero and just too damned fine and several of the women are just crazy, but everyone does look out for one another.  The humpy 40yo cop next door lives in a McMansion built on the lot that once held the tiny house where he was raised, and he had patrols coming by every 20 minutes last fall when I had some odd media attention.  The couple across the street and to the north raised their likewise humpy son here, too.  three other couples have been on the street for nearly 50 years.  The poz retiree neighbor often asks to borrow a cup of Crisco, as well as the use of my challenging hands and forearms <EG>.  When I was confined to home awaiting brain surgery in March, they were all calling to check on me during the day.

Maybe it's because my corner of an urban county is very "settled" like the neighborhoods where I was raised and lived as an adult a few miles away.  No homes crammed with twenty-somethings who will only be around for 6 to 12 months... except for the girls two doors down on who we have to call the police almost every nice weekend when they party on their back deck til 1 a.m.

Best,
David

[Iggy]

This thread has definitely gone in a weird track, but the whole thing about "but not all East Coast city dwellers live in a chosen state of isolation from those who live near them," had me cracking up.

I don't think East Coast city dwellers in general are isolated from each other or even unfriendly with their neighbors in the least.  To the contrary, all the places I lived in New York, it never struck me as odd as someone who lived in my building who I didn't know knocking on my door to borrow a hammer or a corkscrew or something.  I also found people in the northeast cities immediately offer to help someone in their neighborhood if the see them struggling with packages or something regardless of "knowing" them.  

The thing about the northeast cities is that the meaning behind "neighbor" is a little antiquated.  People may not know much about the guy next door, but they may just never run into him (something that is not unusual in cities) but I guarantee they will know names and personal lives of the people who they run into everyday at the local deli, dry cleaner, dog park, etc.   

Maybe the Northeast cities aren't about getting to know everyone's names or taking the time to say hello to everyone you see (which in the high density city center's of the Northeast would be a bit ridiculous),  but  I really don't see those items as anything but superficial markers of what it means to be friendly with your neighbors.

Lastly, to bring this weirdly back to Manhunt, I just remembered as I wrote this how many people (myself included) would refuse to accept invitations from people in a neighborhood they considered too far away...even if we are talking about a 5-10 minute cab ride.   Hooking up with someone on the Upper East side while you were in Tribeca was just considered an impossibly long trek not worth it.

[Miss Philicia]

Thanks Iggy, you said what I was attempting to express much more fully.  I was trying to show a "compare and contrast" in a quick vague way of what I grew up with (smallish town, kindasortanotreally Southern) versus big city (specifically northeast).

I only offered the contrast as a potential difference in how folks perceive the effects of "internet socialization" on either gay culture specifically or culture at large, which is the basis for this thread.

ps: I never had a problem traveling far for cock, if it was something particular I was looking for   but then I have rather specific tastes.  It's like looking for quail eggs on a menu.

[OneTampa]

Whatever, you want to say about the weird twists and turns of the discussion on this thread, it ain't boring.  Everyone on this board can sure sling some fierce chatter!

[heartforyou]

It is like when I hear "gay" men who say, "I'm not into the gay scene or bars."

OK, what are they into? I have news for them, nobody looks straight when they're down on their knees.

Markie.. that really is so true......

Friends of mine just came back from SFO.
They had been looking forward to explore this Mekka for gays... but ended up very disappointed as there are only a couple of leather bars let.
And the bartenders were unanimous....they blame the internet.

I do admit that it is a lot more exciting to cruise in a park or bathhouse, but nothing goes faster then an internet encounter. It's just that an handsome 38 year old mostly appears to be a granddaddy with bad breath.....

Those were the days....

Hermie

[Pirate]

It is like when I hear "gay" men who say, "I'm not into the gay scene or bars."

Oh God, I remember when a lot of people would say that.  Like the "bars" were these awful places. 

And now, these days, if I can actually get my fat ass off the couch, turn off my laptop and go to a gay bar, have a drink and socialize with real people, I feel downright civilized. 

[Dachshund]

obviously it has...

http://www.towleroad.com/2008/08/mccain-takes-23.html

[ArisGreekSquared]

Hmm...I don't know. I like Manhunt. If I need to get laid and a FB isn't available it's definitely helped out.  One thing I can say is that when I'm in a relationship it is a monogamous one and I cancel my Manhunt account.  I think it just depends on how loyal someone can be. I know a lot of couples that have Manhunt and they are on it for just "friends" but then their interest is piqued and they start to have maybe a j/o session, then it transpires to oral, then to anal and goes out of control.

It hasn't ruined it for me.  I have will power.  I just think the average gay man wants a relationship but also wants the ability to keep their options open and play with other men while they are emotionally attached to one guy. 

*shrugs* I don't get it, but I'm happy to not.  I'll stick to my occasional tricks whether they are partnered or not, however, when I'm in a relationship "bye bye manhunt".